It's Czech Mate

Last 8 races of the season

Button 21 Points
Vettel 27 Points
Rubens 28 Points
Webber 16 POints
Hamilton 40 Points
Kimi 38 Points


Jenso was well clear in the lead of the championship and didnt have to take risks with a car struggling to heat its tyres

What is mediocre is the fact his main rivals could only pull back a handfull of points over 8 races ( 6 and 7 for Vettel and Rubens )

Doesnt look quite so shit now does it?

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

Oh yeah really lucky Lol.

I give up on this thread. Some strange replies thats for sure.

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

Were fighting a losing battle mate!

RSandy

iTrader: (1)

until you open your eyes and realise your argument is based more so on a strange dislike of hamilton, of course people will fight your opinion

if button was this racing god, he would have been at the wheel of a ferrari/maclaren/renault in recent years, not squandering his start with williams and then sitting middle of the field whilst living the playboy lifestyle until finally landing a decent car by default!

in my opinion, good drivers earn their good cars, if they are good enough, they will be snapped up and dropped in said good car

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

so lewis earnt being put into the best car in his first season.

By being quick in a go kart lol.

Jenson didnt get a top drive due to Loyalty and pushing on with Honda.

And look where loyalty got Him

World Champion!

RSandy

iTrader: (1)

i think its safe to say ron dennis n co are probably very slightly more experienced at talent spotting than the likes of u or me. if im wrong however, i wud beg the question why u havent been snapped up by 1 of the big teams lol

i also beg the question, was jenson loyal to honda, or was he simply just out of options? 2 sides to every story

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

Well ill say loyal to Honda.

Ross brawn seems to know what his doing too and i would rather he was managing my team than ron dennis!

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

and im ready to be snapped up whenevr they want me... Im waiting by the phone lol

It's Czech Mate

Your talking shit, good drivers get in good cars because of the funding they can bring/ sponsorship opportunities/ wishes of the sponsors or manufacturers..........look at amazingly how ferarri have signed Alonso, just as Santander has announced their sponsorship deal


You clearly know very little about how F1 works. There are many many good drivers who never got in the best car for one reason or another, its very rarely about just being talented.

As for Jenson having little sucess at Renault/Benneton......name any Number 2 driver that has had any sustained sucess in a flavio team?

All you can do to demonstrate your worth is to beat your teammate, its the only true measure. Jensons career stacks up well considering he arrived in F1 with very little experience in single seaters probably a lot earlier than he expected, unlike some of his peers, who have always been well funded and groomed for a life in F1.

I'm a hammy fan too, and i like alonso, but I appreciate Jensons path to F1 wasnt full of the experience and support that other drivers had had and that hes a worthy champion who did bloody well to win the title in a car that wasnt always the best. He made the very best of his car this season IMO, THAT is what a champion has to do.

At the end of the day, when he sits down with his kids/grandkids and hes reading a book of F1 to them and he reads down the list of Clark, Stewart, Prost, Senna, Mansell, Shumacher and Button, he wont give a fuck how mediocre RSAndy thinks he was

Also if you check out the opinions of other people inside F1, they dont share your views on him being average

It's Czech Mate

He had 2 drives on offer this season, one at Renault on a decent salary ( well documented as Flavio had several pops at him in the press after being turned down ), he took a Ł5m paycut to save staff at Honda and because he KNEW the car was good and he wanted to win.

seannygoat

Lewis hamilton has been part of maclaren since his go karting days. he was telent spotted by their youth program and progressed to where he is now. its cos he is talented and so is button, there very different people and have different paths to f1 but both equally good!!

The Youth.

iTrader: (1)

Any doubters of hamiltons ability need to watch this video of his best ever drive in GP2
I watched this live and it was stunning!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbjRFd205qo

steve

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Mansell over Senna
Hill over Schumacher
Button over Hamilton

At least you have consistancy


I bet you prefer cossies to evos, and leyton orient to real madrid as well

The Youth.

iTrader: (1)

never saw that chip..
hill over schumacher...that has to be a joke!!

steve

Dan F

Typical!

An F1 thread turned to s**t

Chip

iTrader: (3)

To be fair, he was only saying he preferred him, not he thought he was quicker.

EIL132

At least next year should be good, Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, Kubica if the cars good enough, Barrichello again if the cars good enough, maybe Raikkonen, maybe Massa. Very interesting

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I think next year will be a good one, I think Ferrari and Mclaren will be back in it.

RickyLee53

I think they've been back in it a while

Button 21 Points
Vettel 27 Points
Rubens 28 Points
Webber 16 POints
Hamilton 40 Points
Kimi 38 Points

I'm looking forward to next year, I hope the seasons as close as this 1. Can't see brawn doing all that well but hope they do.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I mean in it in terms of one of them will win the drivers and constructors title.

I agree, I think the Brawn team will turn out to be a bit of a "one hit wonder" as he wont be able to come up with something that gives him a significant advantage again next year like he did with the diffuser.
Would be great if they are in contention next year though, and he certainly knows what he is doing!

EIL132

Brawn could do well, depends on who they sign up. If it is a Rosberg swap then that will make for an even better season IMO. Rubens input could make the difference for Williams.

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

Thankyou chip that was my point.

Noy that he was quicker but he was the better personality.

It's Czech Mate

Hint, it wasnt just the diffuser that made them fast in races 1-8, if you havent realised by now Toyota and Williams had them from day one also, and the other teams that introduced them didnt suddenly leap forward. McLaren and Ferarri both attributed their performance to a massive development programme all over the car, mainly addressing reliability and balance due to KERS installations.

Honda had spent the majority of their time last year doing the development the other teams did mid season this year..that is why there was a lot of catch up, Brawn had little budget compared to Macca/Ferarri and thats why it looks as though there was a huge catchup as the others adopted the ddd.

Try looking nearer the front wing and the sidepods on all the cars early 2009 season for answers as to why Brawn was fastest, and the fact the car was specifically designed not to run KERS, not a half and half so it could 'maybe' be fitted mid season

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Indeed, it was just part of the complete aero package, and one that was hard to retrofit as effectively as to design in from the outset

Which the change in minimum weights next year the KERS cars will be less disadvantaged than they were this year IMHO, so its going to be harder for Brawn to do anything next year that gives Jenson a good enough car to win races again, unless he can find another rule that he manages to interpret differently to most teams, which is of course always possible!

It's Czech Mate

I fail to see how the KERS cars were 'disadvantaged' this year? Did it make them slower in some way?

If it was a 'disadvantage' they wouldnt have run it...............



What you mean is that next years minimum weight increase will make KERS easier to design into the cars that didnt make a success of it this year

As for the 'interpretation'....it was ratified at every level well before the season for 3 teams.........if McLaren design a Better rear wing next year that reduces drag but give them a massive amount of downforce and is inside the rules will you bitch all season because it's 'not in the spirit'?

All you're doing is moaning about someone who designed a better car

I suppose Colin Chapman's cars were all against the spirit of the rules too

Chip

iTrader: (3)

They were disadvantaged more in terms of weight distribution on the car this year than they will be next year.


Sometimes with development of a racing car you have to take a step backwards before you can take 2 steps forward.



Thats not all I mean, no

It wasnt the wing giving him the downforce, it was the mounting bracketry essentially.
Hence not in the spirit of the rules as the rules never intended that to happen

Im not moaning, I think he did an awesome job, I just think that there was an element of luck, it needed a rule to exploit in the first place before he could do such an awesome job of doing so, and unless he can find a similar:
trick / stroke of genius / cheat / good design * (delete as appropriate)
this year then I think he will struggle to make a competitive car again due to his apparent budget constraints (although maybe he'll get a lot more sponsorship now the car is proven)

Most cars that win significantly are in some manner, thats the clever part of designing a car within the rules, bend them all and break none of them!

Happens at all levels of motorsport.

A friend of mine builds minicross engines for example, the rules state that you must use original unaltered conrods, no lightening or balancing of the rods.

Doesnt stop him stripping 20 engines and picking the 4 lightest and best balanced ones though, which goes totally against the whole point of that rule which is that it is meant to stop engine builders gaining a competitive advantage by spending more money.
Still perfectly legal to do though, even though it goes against what the rule was meant to achieve!

Thats not me moaning, but it is a genuine part of the reason why his cars are normally fastest on the grid, if that rule was changed, or more people had the resources to do what he does, then he would lose some of that advantage, the same is true of Brawn.

The rule was meant to remove downforce, but he managed to not break th rule and still achieve what it was intended to stop.
Fair play to him, I would have done the same if I was in his position and was as clever as him, im not negatively critisising him for it, I think he did an awesome job!

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

Kers Disadvantage lol.

How would he of overtaken as many cars without it?

what is it 80bhp more when pressed?

It's Czech Mate

Interesting Reading - Good job for the other teams they had to 'botch' it.

They have a big budget for next year too so I doubt they'll fall too far back.



So with three weeks to go before the season opener in Australia, the Brawn GP 001 finally hit the track - and it was true to its creators' predictions.
It was the fastest thing in the field by a mile, and Jenson Button went on to win six of the first seven races, the foundation for the championship he finally clinched on Sunday.
What is less well known, though, is that the car is, in the words of my source, "a botch job".
It was designed for a Honda engine, and it was not until December that the team knew they would be using a Mercedes. That necessitated some pretty crude changes.
"The chassis had the back six inches cut off to fit the engine in - the sort of thing you wouldn't normally do even with a test car," says my source. "And the gearbox was in the wrong place because the crank-centre height is different. There's a massive amount of compromise in the cars."
Those compromises introduced a significant performance deficit into the Brawn car, but it raced like that all year.
That is because the lead time on making a new chassis is several months, and at the time the team would have had to make the decision - in April - the car was dominating.
By the time it had dropped off the pace, and it was obvious the team needed the extra speed that would come with a bespoke chassis and improved weight distribution, it was too late to commission a new design.
Just as incredibly the team, tight on budget, made only three chassis all year - one for Button, one for Rubens Barrichello, and a spare - when a big-money outfit such as McLaren will typically make seven or eight.
That the Brawn was so quick in the circumstances is incredibly impressive.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

It is both an advantage and a disadvantage.

Its an advantage to straight line pace, and a disadvantage to cornering speed, next year though it will be less of a disadvantage to cornering speed.

Hence my comment that next year the cars with it will be less disadvantaged.


You do realise that button wasnt using KERS?


I think its quoted at 85, but yes basically, around that figure, for around 6-7 seconds.

So it works as an advantage for 6-7 seconds a lap, and it works as a disadvantage for the rest of the lap.


******************
EDIT:
Here is a quote from some bloke called Brawn chatting about it, if you wont believe me that it was a disadvantage this year then maybe you will believe him?


Next year the weight limit is 620kg, not 605.

Here is the reason why, according to the people who actually introduced the change:

Simples

Ebonycossie4x4

iTrader: (4)

I know button wasnt using it, and his skill enabled him to overtake the cars

What helped lewis..... Errrrrrr KERS.

Alan_D

Did none of the drivers use VVT?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

What helped button overtake, was his car had a higher corner speed as a result of not having KERS.

How can you totally fail to understand something SO simple?

This year KERS didnt help Lewis over the course of a whole lap, it hindered him, next year though, I think it will be neutral or help, and in subsequent years I think it will become more and more helpful, other people who agree with me include mclaren and ferrari, hence they took the hit this year to start developing it.
Brawn probably also agrees, but had to make a success of the 2009 season above all else, so didnt have the option of looking more long term in his strategy due to lack of budget, maybe next year he will start developing it, or maybe he will wait to the year after by which time the other teams will have done the hard work for him!

It's Czech Mate

Chip the rules were specifically targetted at reducing dirty air to help overtaking, they were bourne out of the overtaking task group, not targeting specifically reducing downforce.

And this season has been the best in a long time for Overtaking! Particularly the latter half of the season with all the teams running DDD

It's Czech Mate

Just to add that over a lap for any team theat used it, the net effect was an advantage, or they wouldnt have used it

Simples

Chip

iTrader: (3)

The team that won this year DIDNT use it.

The reason they didnt use it (by their own words!) was it was a disadvantage.

So, clearly, although it is indeed simples, its not simples enough for YOU to understand.


Gotta love the way you think you know more about the Brawn car than Brawn does

sbd16v

ouch things in your world are indeed simple.

the disagvantage because of kers was in the body design of the car, the side pods needed to be alot larger to encase the kers, for this reason removing it ment nothing as they still had the problem with the aero package/ large side pods, and without a FULL new car there was no simple way to sport it out.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Not just in the body design, also in terms of weight distrsibution, more weight spent on car functionality meant less weight left to place where you want it purely for the sake of distribution.

The Youth.

iTrader: (1)

don't agree with your understanding of that chip, the brawns won the titles because of their first half performace, they got the car to work to the rules before anyone else, their performace over the second half of the year proved they didn't have a championship contender but by then there lead was enough for them to limp over the line.
And I don't think kers was the issue in the other cars not doing it, it was rest of the car that wasn't performing.

steve

It's Czech Mate

As i've already explained the Brawn was designed to use Honda's KERS, not Mercedes, therefore the fitting of the Merc system wasnt right for the chassis, and as Brawn were on a budget and couldnt redesign the car quickly enough they didnt use it and went for a slimmer, lighter approach

Once McLaren worked out they had distribution problems and made a new shorter Tub, introduced about 8 races ago they've been the highest scoring team

They have quoted all season that their KERS gives them on average about 4 tenths a lap depending on where.

Is that Simple enough for YOU to understand Given the money to have it installed as designed it IS and advantage.


Unless you want to open a pointless debate with Ron Dennis, Norbert Haug and Martin Whitmarsh about how their car would have been fatser without KERS

Brawn would have LOVED to have had the Honda version of KERS available as it was different to that used by other teams and by all accounts was the lightest and most efficient, in fact it was so good, Honda have retained the commercial rights to it even though they paid for a british company to develop it for them

sbd16v

i was talking purly on the reason they could not just remove it from the car, if it was purly because of weight then removing it would have solved the problem.

the weight dis was the problem, but the body design was why they could not just remove the problem