Pick me a decent engine!
07-08-2009, 03:36 PM
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Pick me a decent engine!
Mate of mine is thinking of building an E36 track car. So, what engine is to be used is causing us headaches though.
He has an SR20DET that he could possibly use, and most of a YB, but we started looking at more or less everything. Thought about an RB25DET, C20LET, Supra TT engine etc. He would like a V8 so we thought Rover V8, small block chevy, LS1, Windsor V8. The ultimate would have to be an S62 (E39 M5) engine, though with it having fly by wire throttle, and how complex it is, it would probably be easiest to chop a whole, working M5, just not worth it. Also heard that they are very expensive to tune? (not that 400bhp is pony)
Searched around and spoke to Chip (cheers for the advice buddy) and he pointed us to the 1UZFE Lexus V8! Very cheap to get hold of, easy to tune, and around 280bhp with filter + exhaust. Plus they sound fucking awesome!
Thing is, that would probably need to be forced induction of some sort to be up into 400+bhp territory so it adds to the cost, and also infringes on the space in the bay.
We've come full circle and thought again about an E36 M3 evo engine. 320bhp, slight weight penalty over the 1UZ but great engine, and best of all, bolts straight in.
Then we thought about the E46 M3 engine. 350bhp, sorted. Anyone any gen on the fitment of them into E36's? Or are they hugely expensive?
Ideally, he wants an S62 V8, but its just not worth the money.
Any suggestions would be great, and tuning options for each engine please
He has an SR20DET that he could possibly use, and most of a YB, but we started looking at more or less everything. Thought about an RB25DET, C20LET, Supra TT engine etc. He would like a V8 so we thought Rover V8, small block chevy, LS1, Windsor V8. The ultimate would have to be an S62 (E39 M5) engine, though with it having fly by wire throttle, and how complex it is, it would probably be easiest to chop a whole, working M5, just not worth it. Also heard that they are very expensive to tune? (not that 400bhp is pony)
Searched around and spoke to Chip (cheers for the advice buddy) and he pointed us to the 1UZFE Lexus V8! Very cheap to get hold of, easy to tune, and around 280bhp with filter + exhaust. Plus they sound fucking awesome!
Thing is, that would probably need to be forced induction of some sort to be up into 400+bhp territory so it adds to the cost, and also infringes on the space in the bay.
We've come full circle and thought again about an E36 M3 evo engine. 320bhp, slight weight penalty over the 1UZ but great engine, and best of all, bolts straight in.
Then we thought about the E46 M3 engine. 350bhp, sorted. Anyone any gen on the fitment of them into E36's? Or are they hugely expensive?
Ideally, he wants an S62 V8, but its just not worth the money.
Any suggestions would be great, and tuning options for each engine please
07-08-2009, 03:44 PM
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IMO for a track car the S50 engine from an M3 EVO is a good choice, decent NA power and as you say will slot straight in so can spend maybe the extra ŁŁŁ on other parts.
07-08-2009, 03:51 PM
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What about a focus st 2.5 5 pot duratec?
Alloy block so nice and light-ish
great tuning potential easy 350bhp - potentail for alot more
Readily available - seen a few on the bay recently
I know it's not
Alloy block so nice and light-ish
great tuning potential easy 350bhp - potentail for alot more
Readily available - seen a few on the bay recently
I know it's not
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07-08-2009, 04:26 PM
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LSX's seem expensive (unless im not lookng in the right places?) and do you have dimensions of the LS engines please?. I have been told the 2JZ bottom ends arent up to much as std, could be miles off though as Ive never so much as changed the oil on one! S62 is the perfect choice really, but Ive not seen one for sale, and getting it to work would probably be a nghtmare in terms of its complexity. Though it has been done on a few E36's already...
Probably the best option in terms of fitting tbh, plus aside from the steering rack clearance issue, can be turbo'd up to silly power! Saw an S50 M3 Evo engine on ebay go for Ł1500 the other day!
Hadn't considered one at all as Ive not seen one Longitudinally (sp) mounted as yet. What gearbox might we be able to use? Would sound fruity!
Hadn't considered one at all as Ive not seen one Longitudinally (sp) mounted as yet. What gearbox might we be able to use? Would sound fruity!
07-08-2009, 04:26 PM
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is awesome
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If you want ot build a track car that you can use most of the time on track, use a E36 M3 engine. Bolts in no fussy.
IF you want a project car, that will eat up loads of money, time and effort. Spend most of the time being worked on rather than on track then go with some like a LS or a JZ.
IMHO
IF you want a project car, that will eat up loads of money, time and effort. Spend most of the time being worked on rather than on track then go with some like a LS or a JZ.
IMHO
07-08-2009, 04:33 PM
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If you want ot build a track car that you can use most of the time on track, use a E36 M3 engine. Bolts in no fussy.
IF you want a project car, that will eat up loads of money, time and effort. Spend most of the time being worked on rather than on track then go with some like a LS or a JZ.
IMHO
IF you want a project car, that will eat up loads of money, time and effort. Spend most of the time being worked on rather than on track then go with some like a LS or a JZ.
IMHO
07-08-2009, 04:37 PM
#13
Patronus
This is the first post... of 19 pages of how to do a V8 Swap into an E36.
sorry, i forgot i'm a member on there too
if you're interested in doing the swap, it's a good read, goes into some pretty good detail too - it's free to sign up !!
sorry, i forgot i'm a member on there too
Originally Posted by DJon Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:55 pm
v8 conversion fitment issues. possible sticky for u lot???
by dj on Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:55 pm
thought this might be handy for ppl. its not a complete list as im shattered but ill add to this as i go. saves me keeping all my notes on paperwork as well.
m62 or m60 engine only. m5 engine is possible but the intake manifold fouls the bonnet. fits the same but youd need a power bulge like the e46 m3 for it.
okay you need custom engine mounts for the car to physically fit. alpina make them but they are 330 quid each without the vat. best bet is to take some e34 v8 engine mounts and chop the ends off. weld on part of an e36 mount and u will have a good template.
oil sump bulge is at the wrong end of the engine for an e36 fit but perfect for an e30 in case your wondering. anyways youll need either a dry sump or modify the existing pan. alpina do their own oil pump to save you having to mod the pump as well. not too bad price wise for that either. a ton or so.
okay the early m60s dont have ews so that avoids a major problem in my eyes. however they do have nikasil so the majority were replaced. if u can find a good alusil replacement your cracking.
the m62 is a much improved unit and will easily outstrip an m3 evo whether it be 0-60 or top end. simply no comparison. ive got a small vid clip of a b8 maintaining a constand gap in front of an e39 m5 at speeds of excess 140 which always makes me smile.
back on topic now. the m62 uses a throttle potentiometer in a fly by wire system. this was only in post 98 engines so if u can get an earlier version it makes it sooo much easier to install. if u choose not to go via this route youll need the m62 engine but the 4.0l throttle body and ecu. adjust the fueling and make sure it recognises the throttle and you should be fine. id go for an early m62 engine tho tbh.
manifolds. the exhaust headers are the only issue here once you have the engine sitting nicely on its new mounts. cylinders 1-4 are the possible problems. rhd cars have the column on this side and im not 100% that they clear the column. rather than mess around with the column if you look closely at the manifolds youll see 2 clear weld lines after the intial collection point. id suggest breaking these and getting an exhaust place or machine shop to fabricate a small bend in the pipes to accomodate the column. much easier and cheap too.
you can use your exisiting abs unit but youll need to extend the wiring on it. otherwise u can use the e39 unit as long as you get it with the block and incorporate it.
oil filter can be engine mounted or remote like in the e39s. the engine will just about clear the mc and servo so ignore everyone that says it wont.
steering column needs to be from a 325tds e36 to withstand the heat from the engine. there isnt much clearance so id say deffo do this straight away.
any 6 cylinder radiator will work and alpina sell all the cooling pipes for peanuts thankfully to make getting it all mounted right that little bit easier. for gods sake dont tell them that your doing this sort of mod tho cos theyll tell you nothing then!
viscous coupling and fan are off other models and iirc there e31 units. ill confirm later in the week when i trawl thru my notes.
air intake is mounted on the offside of the e36 and you will have to move your washer bottle. id use a cone filter and heatshield tho and this will give you enough room not to have to move anything. up to you entirely tho.
think that covers the engine bay.
before you install the engine mount the gearbox to it. alpina use the s6s 420g variant but an e34 v8 manual variant will work fine as well. this will affect your propshaft choice so choose carefully.
anyways whatever box you use alpina sell the gearbox mount for peanuts again. buy that and mount the box up with the engine loosely supported. it will enable you to get the engine mounts and manifolds done precisely to keep that oem look to the bay.
propshaft will be m3 3.0l or evo variant depending on e34 box or e39. whichever prop u choose u also need the same subframe to ensure no messing about. only a few bolts and the entire subframe will drop off. swap over and job done.
alpina sell the linkage as well and youll have change out of 50 notes for the lot. they cover pretty much everything for this conversion but the engine side of things as you can imagine is massively expensive. other bits are wonderfully affordable.
get the downpipes with the e39 cats when you get the engine. any decent exhaust place can cut and reweld these for a perfect fit. youll need a custom pipe set leading to your backbox. 2 o2 sensors and it might be worthwhile getting new ones in as you fit the lot to ensure the engine runs right from the start.
electrics isnt my forte im afraid. wiring is straight forward tho im told. ews can be an issue but im sure most competant garages can sort this if not the guys on here certainly can id imagine.
not sure if ive missed anything so just shout if u have questions or anything.
hope this helps clear a few things up.
ill update this with anything else i think of as i go thru my stuff here.
can you keep this as a sticky as much for my own reference purposes as much as for everybody else?
cheers
david
by dj on Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:55 pm thought this might be handy for ppl. its not a complete list as im shattered but ill add to this as i go. saves me keeping all my notes on paperwork as well.
m62 or m60 engine only. m5 engine is possible but the intake manifold fouls the bonnet. fits the same but youd need a power bulge like the e46 m3 for it.
okay you need custom engine mounts for the car to physically fit. alpina make them but they are 330 quid each without the vat. best bet is to take some e34 v8 engine mounts and chop the ends off. weld on part of an e36 mount and u will have a good template.
oil sump bulge is at the wrong end of the engine for an e36 fit but perfect for an e30 in case your wondering. anyways youll need either a dry sump or modify the existing pan. alpina do their own oil pump to save you having to mod the pump as well. not too bad price wise for that either. a ton or so.
okay the early m60s dont have ews so that avoids a major problem in my eyes. however they do have nikasil so the majority were replaced. if u can find a good alusil replacement your cracking.
the m62 is a much improved unit and will easily outstrip an m3 evo whether it be 0-60 or top end. simply no comparison. ive got a small vid clip of a b8 maintaining a constand gap in front of an e39 m5 at speeds of excess 140 which always makes me smile.
back on topic now. the m62 uses a throttle potentiometer in a fly by wire system. this was only in post 98 engines so if u can get an earlier version it makes it sooo much easier to install. if u choose not to go via this route youll need the m62 engine but the 4.0l throttle body and ecu. adjust the fueling and make sure it recognises the throttle and you should be fine. id go for an early m62 engine tho tbh.
manifolds. the exhaust headers are the only issue here once you have the engine sitting nicely on its new mounts. cylinders 1-4 are the possible problems. rhd cars have the column on this side and im not 100% that they clear the column. rather than mess around with the column if you look closely at the manifolds youll see 2 clear weld lines after the intial collection point. id suggest breaking these and getting an exhaust place or machine shop to fabricate a small bend in the pipes to accomodate the column. much easier and cheap too.
you can use your exisiting abs unit but youll need to extend the wiring on it. otherwise u can use the e39 unit as long as you get it with the block and incorporate it.
oil filter can be engine mounted or remote like in the e39s. the engine will just about clear the mc and servo so ignore everyone that says it wont.
steering column needs to be from a 325tds e36 to withstand the heat from the engine. there isnt much clearance so id say deffo do this straight away.
any 6 cylinder radiator will work and alpina sell all the cooling pipes for peanuts thankfully to make getting it all mounted right that little bit easier. for gods sake dont tell them that your doing this sort of mod tho cos theyll tell you nothing then!
viscous coupling and fan are off other models and iirc there e31 units. ill confirm later in the week when i trawl thru my notes.
air intake is mounted on the offside of the e36 and you will have to move your washer bottle. id use a cone filter and heatshield tho and this will give you enough room not to have to move anything. up to you entirely tho.
think that covers the engine bay.
before you install the engine mount the gearbox to it. alpina use the s6s 420g variant but an e34 v8 manual variant will work fine as well. this will affect your propshaft choice so choose carefully.
anyways whatever box you use alpina sell the gearbox mount for peanuts again. buy that and mount the box up with the engine loosely supported. it will enable you to get the engine mounts and manifolds done precisely to keep that oem look to the bay.
propshaft will be m3 3.0l or evo variant depending on e34 box or e39. whichever prop u choose u also need the same subframe to ensure no messing about. only a few bolts and the entire subframe will drop off. swap over and job done.
alpina sell the linkage as well and youll have change out of 50 notes for the lot. they cover pretty much everything for this conversion but the engine side of things as you can imagine is massively expensive. other bits are wonderfully affordable.
get the downpipes with the e39 cats when you get the engine. any decent exhaust place can cut and reweld these for a perfect fit. youll need a custom pipe set leading to your backbox. 2 o2 sensors and it might be worthwhile getting new ones in as you fit the lot to ensure the engine runs right from the start.
electrics isnt my forte im afraid. wiring is straight forward tho im told. ews can be an issue but im sure most competant garages can sort this if not the guys on here certainly can id imagine.
not sure if ive missed anything so just shout if u have questions or anything.
hope this helps clear a few things up.
ill update this with anything else i think of as i go thru my stuff here.
can you keep this as a sticky as much for my own reference purposes as much as for everybody else?
cheers
david
07-08-2009, 05:37 PM
#15
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What about this one...
It's a proper BMW monster, you'd need to email for more info though
Found it here
http://www.race-cars.com/engsales/complist.htm
It's a proper BMW monster, you'd need to email for more info though
Found it here
http://www.race-cars.com/engsales/complist.htm
Last edited by Roscco; 07-08-2009 at 05:41 PM.
07-08-2009, 09:03 PM
#16
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What about this one...
It's a proper BMW monster, you'd need to email for more info though
Found it here
http://www.race-cars.com/engsales/complist.htm
It's a proper BMW monster, you'd need to email for more info though
Found it here
http://www.race-cars.com/engsales/complist.htm
Think an E36 evo engine is the one to have, still tempted by the 1UZ though.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clRvHdA47rw
07-08-2009, 10:10 PM
#17
Post from UK V8 forum..... nothing to do with me !
My customer's asked me to sell his TT engine due to a change of chassis. It's a purpose built ls1 using a new ls6 engine block. Pistons are custom forged low compression items, Total Seal gapless file fit rings, ARP studs everywhere important, 317 low compression heads with sodium filled valves and ls6 style ports, aftermarket valve spring kit, uprated oil pump & timing chain double roller set, vette big wing sump, custom aluminium intake, BBK twin throttle, GT28 turbos on custom cast iron manifolds, Mcleod Street twin clutch and steel sfi rated flywheel, DTA P8 Pro ecu and custom harness, uprated injectors, coilpacks, sensors included etc. This engine was built with 6-700 hp in mind from 15-20 psi and sensible revs and was a Ł10k project iirc. It's for sale at Ł8000 or sensible offers and may be broken ie clutch and ecu sold seperately. I can be emailed, PM'd or phoned on 07973-341532. Thanks.
Mark
My customer's asked me to sell his TT engine due to a change of chassis. It's a purpose built ls1 using a new ls6 engine block. Pistons are custom forged low compression items, Total Seal gapless file fit rings, ARP studs everywhere important, 317 low compression heads with sodium filled valves and ls6 style ports, aftermarket valve spring kit, uprated oil pump & timing chain double roller set, vette big wing sump, custom aluminium intake, BBK twin throttle, GT28 turbos on custom cast iron manifolds, Mcleod Street twin clutch and steel sfi rated flywheel, DTA P8 Pro ecu and custom harness, uprated injectors, coilpacks, sensors included etc. This engine was built with 6-700 hp in mind from 15-20 psi and sensible revs and was a Ł10k project iirc. It's for sale at Ł8000 or sensible offers and may be broken ie clutch and ecu sold seperately. I can be emailed, PM'd or phoned on 07973-341532. Thanks.
Mark
07-08-2009, 11:08 PM
#19
if u want it to sound mental bung a 13B rotary init. theyve been put in almost everything cuz there tiny and they weigh nothing 
also all the tuning parts available, and the gearboxes are strong
try an find a rear end smash rx7 with a good engine. and ul be pretty unique aswell in a BMW.
or id go with the E36 haha
also all the tuning parts available, and the gearboxes are strongtry an find a rear end smash rx7 with a good engine. and ul be pretty unique aswell in a BMW.
or id go with the E36 haha
07-08-2009, 11:25 PM
#20
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07-08-2009, 11:34 PM
#21
it would have to be a turbo unit tho, oh and bridge ported. the N/A engines could prove abit weak for a track car. i dunno people what can get out of em but it cant be much more than 300bhp.
the RX7 engine runs twin sequential turbo and like 280bhp standard. and with a big single turbo the skys the limit and rotarys can take like 40psi on standard internals and some guys in america tried to see how high one would rev and they got the engine to over 40,000 rpm. ... apparently
the RX7 engine runs twin sequential turbo and like 280bhp standard. and with a big single turbo the skys the limit and rotarys can take like 40psi on standard internals and some guys in america tried to see how high one would rev and they got the engine to over 40,000 rpm. ... apparently
07-08-2009, 11:54 PM
#23
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it would have to be a turbo unit tho, oh and bridge ported. the N/A engines could prove abit weak for a track car. i dunno people what can get out of em but it cant be much more than 300bhp.
the RX7 engine runs twin sequential turbo and like 280bhp standard. and with a big single turbo the skys the limit and rotarys can take like 40psi on standard internals and some guys in america tried to see how high one would rev and they got the engine to over 40,000 rpm. ... apparently
the RX7 engine runs twin sequential turbo and like 280bhp standard. and with a big single turbo the skys the limit and rotarys can take like 40psi on standard internals and some guys in america tried to see how high one would rev and they got the engine to over 40,000 rpm. ... apparently
Same here, maybe people have different concepts of cheap
07-08-2009, 11:58 PM
#24
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
K conversions do a off the shelf kit for swapping a supra engine, 2jz?? into a E36.
http://www.k-conversions.co.uk/index...ndex&cPath=7_8
I know its a bit of money, but the 2jz is a fucking sweet engine with so much tuning potential.
Mike
http://www.k-conversions.co.uk/index...ndex&cPath=7_8
I know its a bit of money, but the 2jz is a fucking sweet engine with so much tuning potential.
Mike
08-08-2009, 12:22 AM
#25
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
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i cant stress how good the m3 evo engine is for track work and as chip said it is quite easy to drop a turbo on to it if you fancy a few more horses. Speak to anyone who has driven a standard m3 evo around a track and they will assure that it is one very good engine.
08-08-2009, 10:40 AM
#27
[quote=littleknocks;4322146]Very interesting! Are there any weak points on them, I seem to have it in my mind that they have no torque for some reason?
there are no real weak points, as there are only like 30 components to the engine, but after about 65,000 miles the tips will be worn so the engines need a rebuild but this is really the only bad point. other than u have to watch the oil level as they burn oil by design which is why RX7s often smoke on start up, its not cuz theyr knackerd.
and ive heard people say that before that they have no torque, where do people get that from. maybe its because the engine is little. thers like a gentelmens agreement in japan stating all standard cars have to be a maximum of 276bhp and 231ft/ib apparently.
but all the RX7s ive driven feel like high revving four cylinders just really really smooth.
that sequential turbo set up it meant to run the little turbo below 5,000 rpm then the big turbo up to ... whatever u rev it to
there are no real weak points, as there are only like 30 components to the engine, but after about 65,000 miles the tips will be worn so the engines need a rebuild but this is really the only bad point. other than u have to watch the oil level as they burn oil by design which is why RX7s often smoke on start up, its not cuz theyr knackerd.
and ive heard people say that before that they have no torque, where do people get that from. maybe its because the engine is little. thers like a gentelmens agreement in japan stating all standard cars have to be a maximum of 276bhp and 231ft/ib apparently.
but all the RX7s ive driven feel like high revving four cylinders just really really smooth.
that sequential turbo set up it meant to run the little turbo below 5,000 rpm then the big turbo up to ... whatever u rev it to
08-08-2009, 02:11 PM
#32
20K+ Super Poster.
dont even drop an m3 enigne into sometihng, just buy an M3 theyre so cheap nowadays i cant see any reason not to just start with one
theyre so cheap nowadays i cant see any reason not to just start with one
08-08-2009, 09:05 PM
#33
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Mitsi Evo engine. Would be hard to run Longitudinally I would have thought.
See where you're coming from, but I can build one for half the price of a decent M3 evo.
See where you're coming from, but I can build one for half the price of a decent M3 evo.
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