Rear diffs.... info and opinions pls!
03-06-2009, 03:25 PM
#1
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Rear diffs.... info and opinions pls!
I'm pretty clueless about these! I did read the feature in the Ford mag this week... but wanted to ask people opinions who have actually used them on track.
Whats the best diff for my Westy for track use? Sean has advised me I want an ATB and not a plated diff...
he said this
ATB’s are super strong!!! I have never ever heard of one braking. Plated diffs are too harsh for circuit cars IMO, as you never really want the thing to totally lock up. Plus plated diffs have a tendency to make the car push on in corners, where as an ATB is the best of both worlds, going into a corner it acts like an open diff (which is what you want for cornering) then as you power out of the corner the diff diverts the torque to the wheel that isn’t spinning, therefore putting all of your torque exactly where you want it.
They don’t have planet or sun gears Stu, so you won’t ever brake one of those, they are made up of a load of worm gears that are basically forced against each other, rather than away from each other like with conventional gears.
Just wanted to get another opinion before ordering!
Car is a Cossy powered Westfield. Fast road and mainly track use. maybe some 1/4's at some point.
Whats the best diff for my Westy for track use? Sean has advised me I want an ATB and not a plated diff...
he said this
ATB’s are super strong!!! I have never ever heard of one braking. Plated diffs are too harsh for circuit cars IMO, as you never really want the thing to totally lock up. Plus plated diffs have a tendency to make the car push on in corners, where as an ATB is the best of both worlds, going into a corner it acts like an open diff (which is what you want for cornering) then as you power out of the corner the diff diverts the torque to the wheel that isn’t spinning, therefore putting all of your torque exactly where you want it.
They don’t have planet or sun gears Stu, so you won’t ever brake one of those, they are made up of a load of worm gears that are basically forced against each other, rather than away from each other like with conventional gears.
Just wanted to get another opinion before ordering!
Car is a Cossy powered Westfield. Fast road and mainly track use. maybe some 1/4's at some point.
03-06-2009, 03:39 PM
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Recieved my ATB yesterday and should be fitted in the diff as we speak, mines going in a westy to! The guy doing the work for me has said he has never had a problem with any of the Quaiffe ATB`s
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03-06-2009, 06:21 PM
#8
the atb's i have used are ok as long as you never have a wheel eithe rlighter than the other or in the air, as as soon as the wheel lifts that diff will send all your hp to the wheel with the least amount of grip.
there are many differant types ae plated with differing ramp angles to suit your needs pal.
ok ive only used the atb in rally cars but it has been on smooth tar.
there are many differant types ae plated with differing ramp angles to suit your needs pal.
ok ive only used the atb in rally cars but it has been on smooth tar.
03-06-2009, 06:39 PM
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I use a plated diff on my Celica st205 gt4, seems fine when pushing and have had no troubles of it trying to push you through the corners. Car is 4x4 though so this could be the difference over rear wheel set ups. Any way you can drive both to see which one you prefer? If your near High Wycombe you can take mine for a buzz.
Chris
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03-06-2009, 06:57 PM
#12
PassionFord Post Troll
No one seems to go with the re-rated viscous ones for bigger power road cars?
It seems even a standard one needs re-juvenating every so many years - does it make a big difference to anyone that has had it done?
Anyone tried the CTS/Bara re-rated viscous ones?
It seems even a standard one needs re-juvenating every so many years - does it make a big difference to anyone that has had it done?
Anyone tried the CTS/Bara re-rated viscous ones?
03-06-2009, 09:45 PM
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yes, ive used and placed a number of uprated viscous units , they work quite well but nothing like a well sorted plated diff . viscous units deteriorate with heat, you get good grip until the diffs hot and then its hit and miss what it does !! The combination diffs used in the super tourers had both a plated and a Viscous element , totally adjustable - some even externally of the box ! Plated all the way for me , thats my experience and choice , my 500 has an X-trac unit ,very controllable .
03-06-2009, 09:52 PM
#14
as andrew said plated are very good, the ramp andgles can be set so that whilst off power and turning the wheels are free, as soon as you go back on the power they lock, instant go !
very good for rally, track aswell but theyre snatchy (apparently ive not driven one)
the ones in the escos are viscous, seems quick enough if yo ask me
also, one thing ive felt with the atb's, when you lift they tend to jump the car across the road, makes the car feel nervous, this happened in 3 cars i went in with them but others think theyre very good ?!
personal opinion, find what works for you
very good for rally, track aswell but theyre snatchy (apparently ive not driven one)
the ones in the escos are viscous, seems quick enough if yo ask me
also, one thing ive felt with the atb's, when you lift they tend to jump the car across the road, makes the car feel nervous, this happened in 3 cars i went in with them but others think theyre very good ?!
personal opinion, find what works for you
03-06-2009, 09:54 PM
#15
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Will that be a issue on a fast road car though? I wonder what Ford's reasons were for using the VC originally on the road car, just the inate friendliness in normal driving or the lack of maintenance required?
03-06-2009, 09:55 PM
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ive got a plated tran x diff in my 7 type car, not really pushed it so far tbh, but i know there are setup to what you want ie ramp angle and preload, so can be tailerored to suit your needs
03-06-2009, 10:06 PM
#17
imo id get a plated diff.
as for them pushing on in corners, after driving our drift shitter ont he road for a year, with a welded rear diff,, i never found that it pushed on, on tarmac. on gravel etc it would of course as the front end grip was less.
tony, didnt the old RS500 touring cars use spool diffs? ie a solid rear axle essentially?
dont know why, im just not a big fan of the ATBs
but they are cheaper, so may end up with one if i kill mine in the 3dr... when it runs
as for them pushing on in corners, after driving our drift shitter ont he road for a year, with a welded rear diff,, i never found that it pushed on, on tarmac. on gravel etc it would of course as the front end grip was less.
tony, didnt the old RS500 touring cars use spool diffs? ie a solid rear axle essentially?
dont know why, im just not a big fan of the ATBs
but they are cheaper, so may end up with one if i kill mine in the 3dr... when it runs
03-06-2009, 10:49 PM
#18
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imo id get a plated diff.
as for them pushing on in corners, after driving our drift shitter ont he road for a year, with a welded rear diff,, i never found that it pushed on, on tarmac. on gravel etc it would of course as the front end grip was less.
tony, didnt the old RS500 touring cars use spool diffs? ie a solid rear axle essentially?
dont know why, im just not a big fan of the ATBs
but they are cheaper, so may end up with one if i kill mine in the 3dr... when it runs
as for them pushing on in corners, after driving our drift shitter ont he road for a year, with a welded rear diff,, i never found that it pushed on, on tarmac. on gravel etc it would of course as the front end grip was less.
tony, didnt the old RS500 touring cars use spool diffs? ie a solid rear axle essentially?
dont know why, im just not a big fan of the ATBs
but they are cheaper, so may end up with one if i kill mine in the 3dr... when it runs
the casing was massive iircPossibly WAY ott for a Westy though !
Plate diff for me simply as the ATB has the issues already mentioned which I did find noticable and annoying on my own car.
03-06-2009, 11:16 PM
#20
Just found this if you are running sierra diff. It is an Eaton Posi diff install into standard case.
http://www.mc2racing.com/tech/20081104a/index.html
Think he said something like $700US
http://www.mc2racing.com/tech/20081104a/index.html
Think he said something like $700US
Last edited by LINCOLN; 03-06-2009 at 11:17 PM.
04-06-2009, 07:56 AM
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No they aren't! I can get a new Gripper cheaper than an ATB.
Don't forget you also need the Quaife output flanges... not just the ATB.
I was all set on a gripper.... but Sean kinda talked me out of it! and I do REALLY value his opinion. His race Exige is the car most similar to the Westy as well I suppose.
I've never been a fan of ATB's... I put one in front of Sierra and then took it out... where as I was always happy with the plated ZF I put in the rear.
Not sure what to do again now
04-06-2009, 07:57 AM
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Just found this if you are running sierra diff. It is an Eaton Posi diff install into standard case.
http://www.mc2racing.com/tech/20081104a/index.html
Think he said something like $700US
http://www.mc2racing.com/tech/20081104a/index.html
Think he said something like $700US
04-06-2009, 08:14 AM
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the 205 guys said i should have gone for a plated diff, but i bought an ATB and they say the plated is more aggresive,
but then, i drive the wrong wheels
so my opionion dont count
i like my ATB and wont be changing it
but then, i drive the wrong wheels
so my opionion dont count i like my ATB and wont be changing it
04-06-2009, 08:20 AM
#25
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No they aren't! I can get a new Gripper cheaper than an ATB.
Don't forget you also need the Quaife output flanges... not just the ATB.
I was all set on a gripper.... but Sean kinda talked me out of it! and I do REALLY value his opinion. His race Exige is the car most similar to the Westy as well I suppose.
I've never been a fan of ATB's... I put one in front of Sierra and then took it out... where as I was always happy with the plated ZF I put in the rear.
Not sure what to do again now
Don't forget you also need the Quaife output flanges... not just the ATB.
I was all set on a gripper.... but Sean kinda talked me out of it! and I do REALLY value his opinion. His race Exige is the car most similar to the Westy as well I suppose.
I've never been a fan of ATB's... I put one in front of Sierra and then took it out... where as I was always happy with the plated ZF I put in the rear.
Not sure what to do again now
Could something similar be done to a 7" diff
Last edited by Mike1; 04-06-2009 at 08:21 AM.
04-06-2009, 08:21 AM
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Thanks Spiky 
as you said though... you are WWD mate.
Just called Rainbum... he says its subjective but he would go for ATB.
lets face it though. Tony and AndyG can PROPERLY pedal and are successful racers and thats making me think HARD!!!
have you two guys ever used an ATB on circuit?
Markk thanks for opinion mate. If I was going Rallying... it would definately be a plated, because of the wheel in air problem.
as you said though... you are WWD mate.
Just called Rainbum... he says its subjective but he would go for ATB.
lets face it though. Tony and AndyG can PROPERLY pedal and are successful racers and thats making me think HARD!!!
have you two guys ever used an ATB on circuit?
Markk thanks for opinion mate. If I was going Rallying... it would definately be a plated, because of the wheel in air problem.
04-06-2009, 08:26 AM
#27
That IS the trouble with handling, it is TOTALLY subjective. I loved the ATB in my Sapphire, it was completely controllable and never unpredictable. Could leave black lines anywhere.
You need to drive one with plated and one with ATB to see what you think - or just buy both and do a back to back test, and then sell the one YOU don't get on with?
You need to drive one with plated and one with ATB to see what you think - or just buy both and do a back to back test, and then sell the one YOU don't get on with?
04-06-2009, 08:32 AM
#28
My experience of ATB's is that they are fine at moderate power levels but if you start getting to the point where both wheels are scrabbling for grip in a straight line they can be a little snatchy and pull you about a bit.
For your application I would have thought it would be fine but sadly the only way you will ever know, is to try both types and see what you prefer, as like Mike says, handling is a very subjective area.
For your application I would have thought it would be fine but sadly the only way you will ever know, is to try both types and see what you prefer, as like Mike says, handling is a very subjective area.
04-06-2009, 08:52 AM
#32
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with atb it can still spin an inside wheel so if you are side on at high speed and the inside wheel lifts a bit it will spin up and the outside one will gain traction again causing it to snatch and prob see you off to the tyre wall.!!
this is only from my experience!!
i use 9" viscous in my focus but i try to drive on the limit of sliding and if it steps out it can be a hand full!
for the road/track i wouldn't have a 4wd or 2wd cos without a plated lsd...
this is only from my experience!!
i use 9" viscous in my focus but i try to drive on the limit of sliding and if it steps out it can be a hand full!
for the road/track i wouldn't have a 4wd or 2wd cos without a plated lsd...
04-06-2009, 09:05 AM
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I use a plated diff on my Celica st205 gt4, seems fine when pushing and have had no troubles of it trying to push you through the corners. Car is 4x4 though so this could be the difference over rear wheel set ups. Any way you can drive both to see which one you prefer? If your near High Wycombe you can take mine for a buzz.
Chris
Chris
04-06-2009, 09:12 AM
#35
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Is there no plated LSD available for your set-up or do you stick with the viscous one for other reasons?
04-06-2009, 09:16 AM
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I have an Atb in my rwd saff with 500bhp, its not broken yet and it does get plenty of stick but my beast only roams on the roads. Best diff Ive had fitted along with my Ahmed beam. Sorted.
04-06-2009, 09:19 AM
#37
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yes i have a plated also for when i'm not racing and as a back up. i feel viscous has a higher limit of breaking traction when cornering on power, but not always easy controled when it does breakaway!
04-06-2009, 09:22 AM
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with atb it can still spin an inside wheel so if you are side on at high speed and the inside wheel lifts a bit it will spin up and the outside one will gain traction again causing it to snatch and prob see you off to the tyre wall.!!
this is only from my experience!!
i use 9" viscous in my focus but i try to drive on the limit of sliding and if it steps out it can be a hand full!
for the road/track i wouldn't have a 4wd or 2wd cos without a plated lsd...
this is only from my experience!!
i use 9" viscous in my focus but i try to drive on the limit of sliding and if it steps out it can be a hand full!
for the road/track i wouldn't have a 4wd or 2wd cos without a plated lsd...
Now I can add fear into the equation!!!
04-06-2009, 09:47 AM
#39
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Found this info from Marco on the smaller VC diffs
Hi Neil
Bara uprates the 7" VC to 180Nm on the standard VC plates
however there are Nickle VC plates available for the 7" which will increase the Viscosity to 240Nm which is nearly 10 times more preload than standard ,the prices of the Nickle plates are more expensive tho
the 7.5" VC can be uprated to 240Nm on standard plates and 400Nm on the Nickle plates due to the actual size of the 7.5 diff it's alot bigger than the 7" unit
as for the planet gears they are uprated items that he makes himself and me being 100% honest i couldn't tell you how much torque they can handle he has fitted quite a few to rally cars and seem to last ok but i think the rally car use alot less power than your car but some of the rally cars will have more low down torque than you
Bara told me a few times now, if people are going to launch their cars time and time again then they might be better of with a plated diff or an atb something that will do away with the planet gears
you cant get a better more road freindly diff than a VC item in simple terms
cheers Marco
Bara uprates the 7" VC to 180Nm on the standard VC plates
however there are Nickle VC plates available for the 7" which will increase the Viscosity to 240Nm which is nearly 10 times more preload than standard ,the prices of the Nickle plates are more expensive tho
the 7.5" VC can be uprated to 240Nm on standard plates and 400Nm on the Nickle plates due to the actual size of the 7.5 diff it's alot bigger than the 7" unit
as for the planet gears they are uprated items that he makes himself and me being 100% honest i couldn't tell you how much torque they can handle he has fitted quite a few to rally cars and seem to last ok but i think the rally car use alot less power than your car but some of the rally cars will have more low down torque than you
Bara told me a few times now, if people are going to launch their cars time and time again then they might be better of with a plated diff or an atb something that will do away with the planet gears
you cant get a better more road freindly diff than a VC item in simple terms
cheers Marco
04-06-2009, 11:08 AM
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Well, just bought an ATB. Thanks to everyone for their advice...
I know Tony, Markk and Andy (all driving gods) said plated....
but Mike and Sean (who said ATB) will actually be driving it alot probably, and I am TOOO clueless to really tell the difference I reckon. So bought the ATB!
I know Tony, Markk and Andy (all driving gods) said plated....
but Mike and Sean (who said ATB) will actually be driving it alot probably, and I am TOOO clueless to really tell the difference I reckon. So bought the ATB!