89xr2

I totally agree with you.

89xr2

Honestly I have no idea.

Roscco

A deep deep thread guys, a social, political and ethical minefield. Most excellent.

Ellie

Only just read this thread.

Its hard not to be angry when you hear/read of the pain caused by SOME addicts when other people get hurt and caught up in it.

But do feel sorry for some. It makes me sad to think what brought them to that state. I can understand what might drive people to run to drugs as a way of coping, and i dont doubt that if i lived in an area where drugs are readily available then i would be no stranger to it either.

I used to work in a pharmacy that supplied methadone, and got to know some of the patients. I may have a misguided opinion by the fact that anyone wanting to pick up from us had to 'behave'.(By that i mean they could be trusted with it and not need supervised consumption).
One lady who collected from us weekly was short, plump, tidy appearence, looked after hair and wore make up. Came in with her dog. She was 66 and used to be a teacher.
Another guy came in to collect every other day, after work.
Its suprising.

Something i wondered though, and maybe Roscco can answer this?? Why do a lot of people just maintain on methadone and not taper down the dose?? We had records going back 10years+ for this one guy. Surely dropping 1ml even only monthly would be managable??? what do you think??

fuzzy

many see methadone as a free hit with no intention of stopping.

l0ubie

It's something we're looking in too, I'm not a scientist so not too sure on the ins and outs but I shall keep you posted as we have a few hospitals up your way on our books! good luck hun xx

fuzzy

i know what you mean, your replacing one drug with another except the replacement drug doesnt offer the short term good times the old one does. whats the difference then? your still relying on a drug and are therefore still addicted by default?

Roscco

Ellie - I've cut my meth down from 190ml (1mg/1ml) to 70ml currently (taken 13months). Although to be fair dropping it 10ml at a time got harder and harder as the dose went down. Where i'm at now, i feel strung out as soon as i drop a couple of ml. Maybe in my head, but a hurdle never the less. I'm aware and have accepted i might never get any further, but it won't be for lack of trying.
As fuzzy states though, some people are happy to be maintained without the thought of reduction.
As a side note, my sister (Very Anti-drugs, my fault) is down your way and says drugs are rife??? You can't be looking in the right places

L0ubie - please do, any new avenue should be investigated me thinks. The more the better. If it's ok to ask, what are you involved in? (And i don't mean benni )

ConnollyGT30

Do you think you will ever be totally clean rossco?

GARETH T

best thread ive read for AGES on PF and im really loving reading Roscco's posts! well done mate!

bigchez

Rossco - at what point did "casual" drug use (ie, a couple of spliffs at the wknd or a pill/line or 2 on a big night) turn into heroin addiction? Despite what many will claim, casual use NOT ABUSE is enormously widespread, espically amongst 15-30 year olds.

Did you literally go hash/skunk - speed/mushrooms - coke/pills/ket - acid - crack- heroin?

Is H really that good that you could see yourself you were going downhill and had that point that you denied to yourself that you knew you were beaten, although you knew inside you were? As you sound to me like you know you are beaten and would like to get off both H and meth - so what's stopping that final push to put up with the unpleasant mental and physical effects, for an increased quality of life long term?

It is interesting for me as I have (touch wood, 3 years on 6th October) beaten a very serious gambling addiction which was going to take my life. I did this through pure cold turkey and will power at gambler's anonymous, and have also quit cigarettes through will power which have both mental and physical symptoms of withdrawal.

Do you find you have obsessive tendencies in other areas of your life?

(Sorry for all the q dude! )

Roscco

Am working towards and hope to be, but realise i'm in way over my head. That said i function like anybody else, so wither i'm maintained on meth or clean, i've curretly got as good as it'll ever be, if that makes sense.

bigchez

Not trying to put you down dude as what you have achieved to get it under control and live a "normal" (what is normal??!) life is great. But all the time you are maintaining, you are putting such massive temptation directly infront of yourself to go straight back down the slippery slope.

What else would give you ( and maybe many more) the confidence or whatever is missing to push that one more step and come off it totally?

l0ubie

Ping a pm I'm happy to tell ya x

Chip

iTrader: (3)

The type of addiction will be different though I would imagine, now it will just be a basic chemical urge, more like going for a piss, where as before it would have been like that plus the addictive thrill of going joyriding thrown in?
Is that along the right lines Rossco?

Roscco

No problem,
(Some more shameless copy&paste)

Roscco - at what point did "casual" drug use (ie, a couple of spliffs at the wknd or a pill/line or 2 on a big night) turn into heroin addiction? Despite what many will claim, casual use NOT ABUSE is enormously widespread, espically amongst 15-30 year olds.
I have an addictive personality, so one was/is never enough........ That said, i've had a couple of addictions now and managed them without too much hastle, but the kit gets you by the balls and seems to keep you there. It turned into a proper habit before i even started. Totally underestimated the drug.

Did you literally go hash/skunk - speed/mushrooms - coke/pills/ket - acid - crack- heroin?
Pretty much, and in that order. Just remove the ket and acid and throw in some benzos.

Is H really that good that you could see yourself you were going downhill and had that point that you denied to yourself that you knew you were beaten, although you knew inside you were?
I ask myself this daily, is it worth it???? No would be the answer my head'll give you on a good day, but i can watch my body say the opposite on a bad one. I knew i was in trouble on day 5, and realised how much trouble within a month. Mad as it sounds it was a sobering experience.

As you sound to me like you know you are beaten and would like to get off both H and meth - so what's stopping that final push to put up with the unpleasant mental and physical effects, for an increased quality of life long term?
I know i've met my match drug wise, and having been with the stuff for so long and tried and failed to clean up several times i'm under no illusions. As i said above, i've cut down loads, i mean 20ml of meth will kill the average adult with no tolerance, i'm down from 190 to 70 in the past 13months, so i'm getting there. Although the Meth gives me the same quality of life you have and allows me to function as a civilised member of society, so if i don't ever get off the stuff, to me it's no great problem. Would just be better to do than not.

Roscco

Bigchez - It's not so much an incentive to get off i need, its to be able to overcome the physical/mental barriers that stand in my way. It sounds feeble when i write it down, and please believe me i'm far from a weak individual, but i have a real problem here.

Chip - I'm somewhere between you and fuzzy, to me having to take something constantly means addiction, but i can understand your thought of different types of addiction (the piss - joyriding thing rules, good example). So whither you piss or you joyride, your fucked regardless.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Rossco, are you aware of the long term health issues from being on Meth if you stay on it forever?

Ie breathing difficulties / heart attack risk / random sudden death etc?

Its certainly not soemthing I envy you needing.


I know I have an addictive personality, when I did martial arts I did it seven times a week, when I got into cars I ended up modifying ten or more at once etc, so consequently Ive always avoided drugs as I know if I had a habbit I would be the one to have the big habbit, lol
Ive never even smoked for the same reason.

I drink occasionally though, but thats never been an issue luckily.

Roscco

Chip - To be honest i don't worry or think about the health consequences of long term methadone. The side effects you mentioned effect only a small proportion of users, but your right, it's not something i'm proud of ar to be envyed. Just something i've come to terms with.

Sorry, but laughed at your "one with the big habit" line, sounds so familiar its unreal. Be it drugs, cars, coke, women ect. we ALL have a weakness.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Rossco, I see people who are addicted to harmful things like Heroin the way I am to stuff like tuning engines and I think "there but the grace of god go I..."

Its amazing how 1 decision made in 5 seconds flat, can alter the entire path of your life.

You were of course a complete twat for making that decision but I have just SO much respect for you for:
a) the way you appear to be managing to deal with it
b) the way you have spoken out about it on here
c) the fact I can tell you are motivated by trying to save others from the same fate.


Top man IMHO and I just figured that was worth a mention as Ive been so busy "interviewing" you about how its effected you etc, that I didnt really stop to give my opinion of you and how you are dealing with it.

Interesting the number of admirable traits that a "worthless junkie scum" (not quoting anyone from this thread specifcially there, just popular opinion) can still be such a fundamentally decent human being, certainly goes against what most people would think.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

You cant compare yourself to them as your a different person......

Its not about blaming someone else. Its about accepting that certain events made you feel/think a certain way. You also shouldnt carry guilt for events you had no control of at the time or your reaction to them as your not "taught" how to react to such things as a child. So what if others reacted differently to same situation???

Depends on you really. If you accept the drug is too powerful to beat or if you decide you can change. only you can find that out i guess.

Guess it also boils down to the medical science side too, ie if its an addictive personality issue that you cant change.

sadly your probably right Chip!! Child sexual abuse is just as taboo as heroin addiction (maybe more so slightly).
I was navy, but thats not the point....

soldiers with drug issues have no place in the armed forces in my opinion. The zero tolerance policy is about safety. I personally wouldnt want to serve with someone whose making life and death judgement decisions while they are effected by mind altering drugs. That goes for alcohol too.

Could you imagine someone whose come back off leave, pushed it a bit too far on drugs on leave then suffers withdrawal while on armed guard duty?? how dangerous could that be. Not talking about just heroin but there are a lot of drugs that seriously effect judgement, not to mention psychosis on withdrawal etc and thats usually not helped as youve said, by the crap a lot of drugs are cut with.

It doesnt surprise me that there are squaddies who are on drugs. The forces in that way recruit all sectors of society and hence will reflect the problems in society too to a certain extent as screening on joining cant weed out all problems.

That was the idea of doing it!!

Unfortunately its mainly the negative hurt caused by addiction that feeds the public perception. Although to be fair i cant think of any positive aspect to heroin in any way or form, just some people the effects and outcomes are more negative than for others!
The problem with "finding a solution" is that current medical science surrounding drugs follows in essence two medical models, the traditional psychiatric model which in essence looks at chemical imbalances etc and hence drugs to correct the problems, and the psychological model which looks mainly at the theory of the mind, conciousness, links between feelings/thoughts/behaviours etc!!

the two are getting better and slowly coming out with ideas that a lot of problems have aspects of both theorys interacting and effecting each other in a much more complex way.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Maybe im over simplifying things here, but surely the key for you then is to find a healthy "addiction" or healthier addiction to replace heroin/methadone. Be it cars (ok not healthy ), building a long term relationship, aspireing to be a dad, crochet, painting, whatever it is, if it focuses your "addictive tendancies" elsewhere, will that sort you out????

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Warren, when I was looking at the info about some anti psychotic drugs for someone I know who had been diagnosed, I looked up how they worked, the company who made them described the way they worked starting something like:

"What we believe happens is that they....."

THEY DIDNT KNOW!!!

Most of the drugs on the market, the people making them dont actually know how they work, they just know from trials that they do work to an extent.

Fucking scarey stuff, I wouldnt want someone messing with my engine without understanding how it works, let alone my brain.

The side effects she picked up from the drugs were:
Massive weight gain
Became Diabetic
Lethargy
Loss of emotion
Loss of empathy

They basically just slow your brain function right down, and make you a shadow of yourself, fucking shitty thing to end up stuck on for the rest of your life, certainly not a cure, just a way of taking the edge off of everything about you so that you are less of a risk to society.
Its of very little real benefit to the actual person the drugs are adminstered to overall IMHO even if it does stop some of the effects of the illness.

l0ubie

DEFINATELY AGREE chip!!!!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

It would certainly help, but chemical addiction is very hard to replace with a non chemical one!

Roscco

Sure it could, The biggest problem users seem to tackle is what to do with their time once clean. Think of spending all day every day chasing a charge for years (or doing anything for that matter), and then all of a sudden not needing to do that anymore. You'd be lost.
I work so don't have this problem.
Just need to kick the habit so to speak, and thats the bit i'm struggling with. Really isn't for the lack of want or trying. Sickens me to look in a mirror and see what looks back.

Chip & L0ubie - Thanks for the opinions, means alot especially when i half expected to get shot down givin the nature of th first page of posts. Just annoys me when people engage the keyboard without engaging the brain. Thats how wars start you know

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Rossco, I would imagine most people are shocked that a Junkie can be an articulate and inteligent person capable of expression emotions.

Thats a massive kick in the bollocks of most people's sterotypical views, so im not surprised you havent been given the standard issue anti-junkie responses as you will have failed so massively to live up to the stereotype itself.

Plus I think most people respect courage and determination in this country, they are 2 traits I would define as quintessentially the best of british, James May would be proud of you for this thread

Chip

iTrader: (3)

PS

Apologies, just realised I have continually spelt your name wrong Roscco!

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Thats not exclusive to being an addict though. most people will feel that way about themselves at some stage in thier life. Probably also indicates how much your self esteem has taken a kicking too.

Theres a LOT of controversy surrounding the "antipsychotic" and sedating drugs used in psychiatry.

Sounds like you are describing Olanzipine nasty shit that is!!! I put on 3 stone in 4 months with that stuff despite sensible diet and gym 3 times a week. Not to mention problem with muscles and always being totally exhausted.

I think a lot of these drugs are over prescribed to make up for the lack of services and treatment in mental health. In the short term its cheaper for them to drug someone into "compliance" than treat them. Shame your quality of life goes down toilet!! Sure there are some people who during severe psychotic episodes, the benefits outwiegh the side effects and it might keep them out of hospital having the drug, but personally id rather have my own mind and learn to adapt to "voices" or "images" and instead learn what is and isnt real rather than have no control!!!

Oh and for the record, its not a "Loss" of emotion and empathy, but the loss of the ability to display the correct response. Often the person has feelings but it doesnt "come out" properly, they know what they should feel/respond and have the appropriate thoughts but the feelings /responses just dont come. its quite disturbing to experience, as is the opposite where you feel excessive emotions for no obvious reason!!!

The fundamental flaw is that addictions and all mental health is chronically underfunded as its still a taboo subject. Spending on mental health does NOT win votes as most people are still ignorantly biased thinking we are all axe murdering nutcases or sickos like huntley etc. The irony is that 1/3rd of us will suffer from mental ill health at some stage in our lives, just as 1/3rd of us will suffer from a serious physical illness/injury of some kind!! yet look at the difference in funding!

There is also reason to believe that some psychiatric drugs are deliberately misused to ease the workload of hospital staff or care staff especially with vulnerable patients who find it hard to say what they want. Not to forget a number of so called "professionals" who follow the "we know best" principle rather than actually interacting with the patient to work the best way forward for everyone. In my opinion, sedatives are abused too much in mental hospital settings rather than getting to the root cause of the behaviour, plus using threats of being medicated to try and encourage compliance.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Warren, no it was an actual loss of empathy not just an inability to express empathy in this instance, we discussed it.

Wasnt that particular drug but TBH most of them have similar side effects, although some of the third generation stuff like "abilify" look promising on paper.
Still lots of side effects though:
http://bipolar-disorder.emedtv.com/a...e-effects.html
But even that scarey list is still good comapred to the older medications!

And I totally agree with you on treatment in mental health hospitals, I would hate to be in one, got to be just about my worst nightmare, they seem to range from poor to terrible, largely due to overworked staff (who themselves lose empathy from sensory overload with regards to the suffering of the patients etc) and underfunding.

I really do consider myself extremely lucky to have been (so far!) blessed with good mental health, I think I would prefer aids to SZ or similar, at least then you can still be you.

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Ive done some psychosis and self harm training and theyve got some great descriptions to understand hallucinations and self harm.

For hallucinations, try having a conversation with a mate about how your day has been, while another mate says random shite into your ear youll only block him out for so long before your conversation goes to shit!!!

For self harm, write down all your coping skills for when you have a bad day, eg go for a drive, go to gym etc etc etc etc etc and then imagine none of them are available to you.

And with hospitals the problems arent just limited to NHS run/contracted ones but private too.

RS Grant

iTrader: (1)

Done something I've not done before, actually rated a thread, fired in an "excellent" vote due to the depth of replies and topics covered. Groundbreaking thread for PF.

I think that this is likely to be the ONLY chance that most people will get to talk to someone thats addicted to drugs. I know that personally, when I worked in the Drug Problem Centre, I would walk through the town centre and maybe recognise the odd person here and there as a client from work... wait for them to acknowledge me and then say hello, or stop and speak if they were game for a chat. When I say that, I mean I talked to both the people who are consciously making an effort to clean up and beat it and, if they were friendly enough, then I'd also acknowledge the people who breezed in to get their script and weren't concerned about beating it.

My statement that 95% arent interested in stopping the drug abuse is true to my area in my experience, but it doesn't mean that they are all absolute neanderthal people without personality.. however.. a large proportion of the 95% I wouldn't like to meet in a dark alleyway because as Roscco has said, they'd rob you in a blink of an eye, whether they think you're a good lad or not!!

On the flipside, nearly every 'normal' person I know that hasn't had exposure to this type of person would rather cross the road than talk to a drug addict... which is why I think this thread is brilliant chance for the 'normal' users on here to get questions answered and find out more about it all. I've said it before, but can't thank you enough for putting your side across in such an honest no-nonsense way Roscco.


Cheers,
Grant

Kamike

Not read this since I posted yesterday, fantastic insight into heroin addiction. I never had any lessons at school about drugs that didnt just beat the words "drugs are bad" into your skull for 45 mins. Which I can only assume is the reason some friends decided to take drugs in the first place as they didnt know the full in's and out's only that it's bad. Maybe a little typical teenage mentality there aswel, being told not to do something so then going out and doing exactly what we where told not to.

Maybe if me and my friends at 15 had a proper drugs education sat with a real life addict like Roscco things would be a lot different for some of my mates.

Roscco

Roscco

You speak the truth,

If i'd been told the real ins and outs of substance abuse, i 'might' have thought twice. All i was told was "its addictive, don't do it".
As a teenager who smoked, and could stop, my thought of addiction was kinda limited. Nothing to be scared about. NO ONE let slip the side effects, like stealing/robbing/mugging.......jail time.......no family.....
Looking back, not clever by any strech of the imagination. If i ever meet the person who designed the Drug Education for kids, i'll give them a swift kicking, Junky style

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I definately think that dragging real junkies into school could help.

Even more so if they go in as a fully functioning normal adult like Roscco and then were locked in a room with some Heroin buried deep inside a dustbin full of dog turd and left there in full view of the kids for 2 days.

I reckon that seeing a normal person now going through shit with his bear hands to get his fix after 36 hours would have a pretty sobering effect on the kids, although Im not sure the european human rights commission would say it was fair on the addict.


Seriously though, hearing the effects first hand would definately deter *some* potential addicts im sure.

Roscco

You've got the wrong idea completely, I'd be forced to torture a kid into retrieving it for me. Not gonna get my hands covered in shit lol.

GARETH T

either way it has the right effect LOL

Chip

iTrader: (3)

The kids were going to be the other side of the viewing glass mate, like at a Zoo

But your way works even better, lol

Less.

I am on olazapine anti physcotic drugs,used to control my temper and violent mood swings,never noticed any side effects dont feel any more lethagic just a bit clamer thats all.

Whne you are presecibed a drug you excpect the doctors and the company that makes to understand them.

As what Chip has wrote makes you think

Ellie

Exactly.

To state the obvious-the chemisty of the brain is extremely complex.
There are quite a few drugs used to treat other illness's where it is not completely understood how they work.
Also its not fully understood how psychosis and schizophrenia come about. Its throught to be the effects of too much dopamine on a certain part of the brain (which is the opposite of what happens in Parkinsons disease).

Sometimes the benefit outweights the side-effects.

And yes, drugs are constantly being developed and trialled and improving, but for some peoplethey can change their lives and enable them to actually have a life worth living.
Risperidone seems to be the most commonly used. Abilify is hugely expensive, as is olanzapine.

Yes, but if by taking this drug your life has become more bearable then whats the problem.
Theres no magic cure for any psychiatric problem so as long as medication is helping then its doing its job.


At the end of the day if you're life is effected enough to need medication then taking something and experiencing side-effects has got to be worth the risk.
And 'voices' and hallucinations can be terrifying for some people, because obviously they dont know that its not real. And if someone told you they are being told to kill you, you'd want them medicated!!
A lot of murders committed by people who are 'mentally ill' can often be because they stopped taking their medication.

Roscco, well done on reducing the dose down though, thats really good going. Im suprised to learn that there seems to be a point where even a slight alteration can affect someone.
Good luck in the future, and whether its with meth or without it youve done a great job at getting a life back for yourself.