COCHYN

Can someone please give detailed reasons I can copy/paste why AP Racing brakes and Brembo's (in 6 and 8 pot forms) are better in every way in comparison with very light, smaller pistoned, very cheap kits like K Sport and HiSpec.

Because blunt obvious reasons ain't getting through to this guy on an another forum!!!

T3ORA

iTrader: (1)

cous they am

simple

or

dont bother wasting time on him

job done

Mike C

iTrader: (1)

HiSpec brakes are shit!

Never even heard of K Sport

Chip

iTrader: (3)

In what way?


If you are going to make statements like that slagging off a product, IMHO you should at least supply some details.

dojj

iTrader: (3)

it's not that the cheaper brake kits are worse, it's because the ap/brembo kits are better

Spiky

iTrader: (1)

i had HISPEC on my escort cossie track car.

they were awesome (monster 4 pots)

i guess i depends on the caliper bought (note i never said brought ..lol)



never heard of K sport

Doug

How many very high spec race cars i.e touring, DTM, rally cars use k.sport or hi spec ?
I think your answer is there mate AP are tried and tested most probably before this guy was even born.



Regards Doug .

Lambchop

iTrader: (1)

how good are comp brake?

dojj

iTrader: (3)

i think he's refering to the quality of service rather than the product itself

which leads me onto a much better example of what to write

small emporiums making besoke products of their own are never going to be seen in the same light as mass marketed "global" brands

if cosowrth had decided to market their yb engines to the general tuning market rather than ford, i don't think they would have had as much success as they have (just look at the piper/warrior kits that were out at the time)

if amg wern't part of mercedes they wouldn't have the same imapct

if nismo wern't part of nissan, if the bmw m devision wasn't in hosue, etc, etc

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Dojj, this thread isnt about customer service.

So far not ONE piece of genuine advice has been given as to WHY people think APs or Brembos are better.

Mike C

iTrader: (1)

They're badly made using the cheapest materials they can get away with.

The likes of AP and Brembo are noticably superior quality and perform 100% better. Why does anyone need to analyse the reasons why this is? I don't know why they work they better, I'm not a brake manufacturer so I don't need to know, I just need to know what works best and not why!

It's like comparing Pro Alloy to any number of small companies you see advertising in magazines knocking out intercoolers and alloy tanks for a third of the price.

People will buy them, but not many of Pro Alloy's customers will be lured away by them.

You pays your money, you takes your choice, you don't have to justify your decision to anyone...

dojj

iTrader: (3)

perhaps people tend to want to have a multi million pound worldwide company providing them with stopping capabilities than someone who makes their calipers in a little unit

this is just down to personal choice rather than one being better/worse than he other i feel as everyone will have had to go through some thorough testing to be able to market such a critical component

Chip

iTrader: (3)

So the material spec of the caliper itslef is different to the AP ones you believe then?
What material is each one then?


What about the pistons, are they a different spec?
If so whats the difference in grade there?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Indeed perhaps they do, but it tells you nothing about the actual difference that this guy wants to know about.

Phil

iTrader: (1)

My only issue with the smaller companies is with regards to the design and testing. AP/Brembo will spend a lot of money and have some very advanced kit for designing their calipers to elminate stress and potential failure points. They will then be tested to destruction on dynos and on track. Aside from being safe this will also allow them to tweak the design to maximise the performance.

The smaller companies just do not have the money to do this.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

It would appear the answer to your question is 'no' so far, although what they can give is opinions and theories

dojj

iTrader: (3)

production techniques may be the answer
large quanatie require much larger scales of manufacture than smaller ammouts

therefore it would be quite logical that, on a mass marketed production line you won't have a bloke doing it with just one lathe and a grinding wheel but will have a highly prisice bit of kit churning out millions a minute

a total oppositte to your tesco's loaf of bread tasting not as good as the one the baker down the street has cooked for you that week and hand delivered to your door

other than that, i think it's just badge snobbery and fit and finish that promote the bigger names above those smaller companies

personally, i was able to get my bespoke posh ap kit for less than i would have paid hi-spec for their kit, so i don't think it's ALL about money, the branded calipers also hold their vaule on the second hand market as well much better than the likes of willwood and hi-spec

fordsportjay

iTrader: (6)

the 6 pot compbrake kit i have on my track m3 has performed very well on the 13 or so days i have done.not once have i thought "wish i had bought ap's".

still doesnt answer his question though.......

any of the tuning mags done a test feature?

Mike C

iTrader: (1)

As per my previous post, how many people on here know every last detail of every last component of their cars?

As long as you can see a visible difference and feel a noticable difference, that's all that matters to people...

None of us have really helped with the original question other than the fact that I doubt anyone will come out and say they think Hi-Spec are as good as AP.....

Chip

iTrader: (3)

And can you personally feel a noticable difference between AP's and Hi-Spec then mate? In what way?

Which car was that on?

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

Let's try some Hi Specs on my Escort!! Maybe not

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

Indeed. I doubt very few people could tell the difference if they did a blind test and drove a car fitted with one set, then the other.

I've no doubt that in a pukka test the APs would outperform the Hi-Specs, mainly because AP have a lot more cash to throw into R&D. But I doubt it would be by a huge margin.

AP can also charge more because you pay a premium for a premium name.

Arguing which is 'best' is also a bit futile as they aren't directly comparable due to one set being a fair bit cheaper.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Do you have any technical reasoning for why you feel the hi spec would underperform on your car?

Or just you like AP's and would sooner stick with them due to good experience of them but dont know enough about the technical details of each to actually make an informed decision about which would be better?

COCHYN

Cheers guys, appreciate the advice, in many ways

I think I've types something up to shut him up. Ignorance is bliss I'm afraid guys n' gals, some people can't accept what's right in front of their faces...in this case, every motorsport on the planet that use these two brake titles

Chip

iTrader: (3)

So what did you type?

Anything of technical merit, or merely that cause AP's get used a lot they must be better?

From what you have said so far, it does indeed appear that for most people in this thread "ignorance is bliss" is a very relevant comment, seems like most people arent interested in the actual nitty gritty of which performs better and why?

dojj

iTrader: (3)

i'd be quiet willing to lend my car as a benchmark vehicle if you could sort out a few companies to provide a set of stoppers

don't forget, people are crying out for a set of better stoppers for the mk3 that will fit under standard rims, which probably all of the big brake kits fail to do

i could even provide (courtesy of that man from liverpool) a spare st220 rim as well as a spare mondeo ttiyX rim and even a spare zetec-s rim, all 18 inchers to see if any of the kits can fit under standard stoppers



all i can say is that, after the initial need for a big of warmth into the pads, the ap set up as provided by martin just gets better and better the harder you press the pedal

i know that is sort of stating the obvious but that's the difference i felt compared to the hi-spec set up on the sierra, although i would concede that it's the way the abs/servo arrangement on the 2 different cars is set up (and the less said about that other set up the better)

Mike C

iTrader: (1)

Hi-Specs on a friend's RS2000 Turbo (4pots, not sure of disc spec size off the top of my heads now) didn't stop as well as my AP's (admittedly a better spec or my Brembos an inferior spec comparing like for like), plus they overheated in no time.

I've not tried a set of each on the same car, but again, not many people will have done.

I think it's kind of "given" the AP and Brembo are in a different league to the likes of Hi-Spec etc. As above, do you ever see Hi-Spec brakes on cars the caliber of Martin's Escort, Porkie's old Sierra, Andrew Gallacher's Focus etc? Surely there must be a reason for this?

dojj

iTrader: (3)

pad size, unless the calipers are designed to work with the most common pads available?

certain "oriental" manufacturers calipers were worse than the smaller factory set up and the pads were actually of a smaller suraface area than the standard pads on the car

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Were you on the same compound pad for each set of brakes?
As in my experience that has at least as much, if not more, input into wether brakes stop well and how they handle heat as the caliper itself.

COCHYN

Aaaaanywayz, Chip you always come accross as a bit of a cock don't you. Why do you simply want to start trouble on here? Grow up! All I wanted was a bit of info surrounding AP and Brembo's history, which simply shows that they've dominated motorsport for so many years...there must be a reason yes?

I've seen plenty of billet brakes, along the lines of Wilwood and Hispec crack under pressure. Other aspects also, but I'd never go back to these type of brakes again, especially with any car running 300bhp.

It appears that DOJJ has given some valid insight into why AP and Brembo are so much better. And its simply how much money you have to throw at a design....which in this case, they have a lot!

Can admin delete this thread, no need for it now, cheers!

Big Will_

Depends also on the number of pistons in the caliper i suspect. Tarox and k sport for example seem to favour 10 and 12 pot setups with a large number of tiny pistons, whereas AP and Brembo seem to just run with 4 or 6 big ones. Be interesting to see the total surface area of clamping load provided between these two approaches calculated...

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Nothing but issues with my wilwoods, so there going in favour of a better quality brake.

CossieRich

iTrader: (1)

I got steered away from Hi spec and Willwood becuase they suffer from caliper flex when used hard and AP's don't. Mike R told me this. So there is one genuine reason why

COCHYN

Nice one Rich

@ Luca

No mate, their fine under the power your dishing out!

Luca

iTrader: (2)

Oh no there not!

Seademon

I used Hi Spec 312mm discs/bells on my Golf for a trip to the ring, they overheated after a few bends and were shagged by the time I got home. Changed the discs for some standard size Brembo 288mm discs and they've done 2 trips to the ring and are still fine, not warped like the Hi Spec discs.

I had already been to the ring a few times so wasnt like I was driving round with my foot on the break pedal either ha ha

DanW@FastFord

iTrader: (1)

I'm sure you would!

Brake tests (done properly) are massively complex, hugely expensive (in terms of a mag's budget) and are fraught with difficulties.

To make the test 100% fair is very difficult as you need brakes that are bedded in correctly, identical testing procedures, no driver error, etc etc etc...

Redline did one recently and I know a LOT of work went into doing it properly.

dojj

iTrader: (3)

and i've still got the standard stoppers on a shelf at home after only having racked up about 2000 miles as well, discs and pads so you have your "best" and "standard" set up ready to go

you could also test them for weight (i know that the stardard set up weighs roughly the same as the ap set up, for discs and calipers so you can take into account the unsprung weight issue as well

it doesn't need to be about price, but about implied "being better" ness than the opposition

and don't forget, the standard alloys have nankang rubber on them and the comp's have budget rubber on them too so it's not even as if you could say the tyres were making the difference here either

plus, it's an auto with cruise control, so you can set the speed and let it run up to it for a distance and then "WHACK!!!!" on the anchors

and i've got 3 days worth of holiday to use up this year to boot

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Not trying to start trouble, im trying to steer people towards fact.



Thats not what you said you wanted at all, you said:
So if you wanted a history lesson, thats a fucking weird way of asking for one.


You've seen CALIPERS crack?
(as I assume you arent referring to disks as "billet" ?

CossieRich

iTrader: (1)

Dojj,

This thread is not for you to blag mag time in order to get your car featured