FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!! Settle the argument!!!!
17-11-2008, 02:22 PM
#41
The DOWNSIDE to the AP's and Brembos that no one seems to have mentioned is a significant increase in unsprung weight, which is obviously the last thing you want from a handling point of view.
17-11-2008, 02:25 PM
#43
I think we should get back on track here, seems like a good post is getting ruined...... 
So I'll just state the obvious, I don't have the figures to hand (i do have Brembos)
Can someone who knows about these things find out the piston dimensions, OD/ID and cross sectional area and also the materials used for each manufacturer, so we can get a like for like comparison, then you'll have your answer.
So I'll just state the obvious, I don't have the figures to hand (i do have Brembos)
Can someone who knows about these things find out the piston dimensions, OD/ID and cross sectional area and also the materials used for each manufacturer, so we can get a like for like comparison, then you'll have your answer.
17-11-2008, 02:31 PM
#44
Rich,
If you're going to quote me, quote me correctly, I said that about the old style Compbrake callipers and the Wilwoods, which are prone to severe calliper flex
.
For everyone's information, Hi-spec carried out torsional rigidity tests on the AP CP5200 callipers and then designed their own billet 4-pot ones to be as rigid as these benchmark items. With regard to them cracking, I have heard of two callipers crack around the bleed nipples, but then I have heard the same of the APs (Chop being one I can remember straight off the top of my head).
Also, depending on which Hi-spec kit you purchase, they can actually come with Performance Friction rotars, so hardly cheap shoddy crap, as these are rated better than the AP discs by quite a few people
.
As to kits overheating, this is entirely down to pad material and brake fluid. On my own Sapphire I had hell and all problems with my AP kit until I changed the fluid form the crap Dot 5.1 that comes as part of the kit to Castrol SRF.
Also the K-sport ones are doing VERY well on cars competing in time attack, so I wouldn't slate these either.
At the end of the day, you pays ya money and makes ya choice, and as long as you chose a kit with good pads and fluid (often where the cheap kits or even the expensive ones fall down), you are unlikely to tell the difference on the road (comparing like for like), other than perhaps disc longevity.
On the track, you are likely to get more consistant braking and the knowledge that you have a properly developed kit for the car.
If you're going to quote me, quote me correctly, I said that about the old style Compbrake callipers and the Wilwoods, which are prone to severe calliper flex
.For everyone's information, Hi-spec carried out torsional rigidity tests on the AP CP5200 callipers and then designed their own billet 4-pot ones to be as rigid as these benchmark items. With regard to them cracking, I have heard of two callipers crack around the bleed nipples, but then I have heard the same of the APs (Chop being one I can remember straight off the top of my head).
Also, depending on which Hi-spec kit you purchase, they can actually come with Performance Friction rotars, so hardly cheap shoddy crap, as these are rated better than the AP discs by quite a few people
.As to kits overheating, this is entirely down to pad material and brake fluid. On my own Sapphire I had hell and all problems with my AP kit until I changed the fluid form the crap Dot 5.1 that comes as part of the kit to Castrol SRF.
Also the K-sport ones are doing VERY well on cars competing in time attack, so I wouldn't slate these either.
At the end of the day, you pays ya money and makes ya choice, and as long as you chose a kit with good pads and fluid (often where the cheap kits or even the expensive ones fall down), you are unlikely to tell the difference on the road (comparing like for like), other than perhaps disc longevity.
On the track, you are likely to get more consistant braking and the knowledge that you have a properly developed kit for the car.
17-11-2008, 02:34 PM
#45
Rich,
If you're going to quote me, quote me correctly, I said that about the old style Compbrake callipers and the Wilwoods, which are prone to severe calliper flex.
For everyone's information, Hi-spec carried out torsional rigidity tests on the AP CP5200 callipers and then designed their own billet 4-pot ones to be as rigid as these benchmark items. With regard to them cracking, I have heard of two callipers crack around the bleed nipples, but then I have heard the same of the APs (Chop being one I can remember straight off the top of my head).
Also, depending on which Hi-spec kit you purchase, they can actually come with Performance Friction rotars, so hardly cheap shoddy crap, as these are rated better than the AP discs by quite a few people.
As to kits overheating, this is entirely down to pad material and brake fluid. On my own Sapphire I had hell and all problems with my AP kit until I changed the fluid form the crap Dot 5.1 that comes as part of the kit to Castrol SRF.
Also the K-sport ones are doing VERY well on cars competing in time attack, so I wouldn't slate these either.
At the end of the day, you pays ya money and makes ya choice, and as long as you chose a kit with good pads and fluid (often where the cheap kits or even the expensive ones fall down), you are unlikely to tell the difference on the road (comparing like for like), other than perhaps disc longevity.
On the track, you are likely to get more consistant braking and the knowledge that you have a properly developed kit for the car.
If you're going to quote me, quote me correctly, I said that about the old style Compbrake callipers and the Wilwoods, which are prone to severe calliper flex
.For everyone's information, Hi-spec carried out torsional rigidity tests on the AP CP5200 callipers and then designed their own billet 4-pot ones to be as rigid as these benchmark items. With regard to them cracking, I have heard of two callipers crack around the bleed nipples, but then I have heard the same of the APs (Chop being one I can remember straight off the top of my head).
Also, depending on which Hi-spec kit you purchase, they can actually come with Performance Friction rotars, so hardly cheap shoddy crap, as these are rated better than the AP discs by quite a few people
.As to kits overheating, this is entirely down to pad material and brake fluid. On my own Sapphire I had hell and all problems with my AP kit until I changed the fluid form the crap Dot 5.1 that comes as part of the kit to Castrol SRF.
Also the K-sport ones are doing VERY well on cars competing in time attack, so I wouldn't slate these either.
At the end of the day, you pays ya money and makes ya choice, and as long as you chose a kit with good pads and fluid (often where the cheap kits or even the expensive ones fall down), you are unlikely to tell the difference on the road (comparing like for like), other than perhaps disc longevity.
On the track, you are likely to get more consistant braking and the knowledge that you have a properly developed kit for the car.
some FACTS just like this guy wanted
17-11-2008, 02:34 PM
#46
Given that the bleed nipples get looser when the calipers get hot, its far more likely due to overtightening than anything else IMHO.
17-11-2008, 02:39 PM
#48
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For me it's like Ohlins to Tein..... or Comps to Rotas (
)
17-11-2008, 02:39 PM
#49
Do you have any technical reasoning for why you feel the hi spec would underperform on your car?
Or just you like AP's and would sooner stick with them due to good experience of them but dont know enough about the technical details of each to actually make an informed decision about which would be better?
Or just you like AP's and would sooner stick with them due to good experience of them but dont know enough about the technical details of each to actually make an informed decision about which would be better?
You pays your money and you take your chance.
Btw I won't be sticking with AP's at all!
17-11-2008, 02:40 PM
#50
Like-for-like would require them to cost the same though, so it's a bit of an unfair comparison.
My reckoning is that both will make your car stop better. The APs will make them stop better than the HiSpecs. The HiSpecs will be cheaper than the APs.
My reckoning is that both will make your car stop better. The APs will make them stop better than the HiSpecs. The HiSpecs will be cheaper than the APs.
Last edited by DanW@FastFord; 17-11-2008 at 02:45 PM.
17-11-2008, 02:41 PM
#51
For what application?
On my mini track toy for example, I went for mega lightweight KAD billet 4 pots, as they were the lightest available brake, and I used them on a thin solid disk as that is all that was required for my application, and it kept the weight to a minimum.
(this noticeably improved the control the shock had over the wheel, particuarly on bumpy corners like castle combe used to be)
For my 3 door though, I have a set of brembos, as I want something that will do loads of miles without needing continual servicing and im not fussed about a bit of extra unsprung weight.
Horses for courses IMHO
On my mini track toy for example, I went for mega lightweight KAD billet 4 pots, as they were the lightest available brake, and I used them on a thin solid disk as that is all that was required for my application, and it kept the weight to a minimum.
(this noticeably improved the control the shock had over the wheel, particuarly on bumpy corners like castle combe used to be)
For my 3 door though, I have a set of brembos, as I want something that will do loads of miles without needing continual servicing and im not fussed about a bit of extra unsprung weight.
Horses for courses IMHO
17-11-2008, 02:42 PM
#52
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
I know quite a few reasons why they would end up under performing on my car but I'm not going to broadcast them, I have had quite a lot of experiance of them over the years and most times they have ended up getting replaced with something better.
You pays your money and you take your chance.
Btw I won't be sticking with AP's at all!
You pays your money and you take your chance.
Btw I won't be sticking with AP's at all!
Me Too...if you reply to my PM ..hint hint
17-11-2008, 02:48 PM
#55
Personally when I choose billet brakes for my track mini (KAD ones not hi-spec as it happened, personally I wouldnt ever deal with hi-spec myself for reasons of customer service) cost wasnt an issue at all, if an extra grand had got me a set that performed better I would have quite happily paid it, but the reality was that none of these big heavy calipers offer any advantages on a lightweight application like that IMHO, and they offer disadvantages in terms of handling.
17-11-2008, 02:55 PM
#57
Were they the same size pads, as often different make solutions for the same application will use different size pads, which obviously makes a big difference, as does disk size and thickness.
Only worth making a comparison if all these factors are closely controlled of course.
Only worth making a comparison if all these factors are closely controlled of course.
17-11-2008, 03:02 PM
#58
Were they the same size pads, as often different make solutions for the same application will use different size pads, which obviously makes a big difference, as does disk size and thickness.
Only worth making a comparison if all these factors are closely controlled of course.
Only worth making a comparison if all these factors are closely controlled of course.
17-11-2008, 03:04 PM
#59
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I had hi specs on a 300bhp S1 track car 330mm fronts and their rear disc conversion and never had a problem, but if i had the money i would get APs due to their vast motorsport experiance but i still believe value for money you cant get better than the hi specs.
from all the people i know only ever known one complaint about Aps and i think that was just a freak incident as the caliper actually cracked causing major staining of the under garments.
Have heard loads of complaints about wilwoods but i cant personally say anything about them as never used them, but my brother has them on his 3dr track car and they always seem to need rebuilding due to piston problems.
from all the people i know only ever known one complaint about Aps and i think that was just a freak incident as the caliper actually cracked causing major staining of the under garments.
Have heard loads of complaints about wilwoods but i cant personally say anything about them as never used them, but my brother has them on his 3dr track car and they always seem to need rebuilding due to piston problems.
17-11-2008, 03:08 PM
#60
you had no problems with the hi spec so what does AP's motorsport experiance bring to the table over your hi spec ???
17-11-2008, 03:08 PM
#61
I had Wilwoods and had a piston problem with one of them. I figured it would be easier just to buy a new pair of calipers and flog the old ones on eBay (described honestly with the problem) and I got a fiver more for the knackered ones than I paid for a new pair of the same brand new (trade price)
Some bloke came and collected the same day too, wanted them for his rallycross Nova.
I liked the Wilwoods when they were working properly, for the money they're good for fast road, but just can't take a real hammering at all
Some bloke came and collected the same day too, wanted them for his rallycross Nova.
I liked the Wilwoods when they were working properly, for the money they're good for fast road, but just can't take a real hammering at all
17-11-2008, 03:20 PM
#63
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Less flex in the caliper through stronger materials.
Better cooling in the caliper through choice of materials
Cooler and stiffer = better in stressed conditions.
Charlie
Better cooling in the caliper through choice of materials
Cooler and stiffer = better in stressed conditions.
Charlie
17-11-2008, 03:33 PM
#65
All discs crack with heat / age (even my 378 x 32 Ł600 a pair APs!). This is even more prevalent with drilled discs. Please note discs are a SERVICE item
.Pads/fluid used should be fit for puprose
.http://www.randbmotorsport.co.uk/sho...6_-_Brakes.pdf
17-11-2008, 03:58 PM
#69
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Anyone who repeatedly evolves a product over many years naturally has a edge on people with less test data and experiance would have thought that would have been obvious?
17-11-2008, 04:03 PM
#70
Perfectly possible for a newcomer to come along and better an existing company's product.
Cosworth did it with the pinto cylinder head for example
17-11-2008, 04:12 PM
#71
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Which is why companies like Ap have always looked at bringing in new people to evolve their own product so the ideas and knowledge base doesn't become stagnent like alot of people opinions
17-11-2008, 05:57 PM
#72
Rich,
If you're going to quote me, quote me correctly, I said that about the old style Compbrake callipers and the Wilwoods, which are prone to severe calliper flex.
For everyone's information, Hi-spec carried out torsional rigidity tests on the AP CP5200 callipers and then designed their own billet 4-pot ones to be as rigid as these benchmark items. With regard to them cracking, I have heard of two callipers crack around the bleed nipples, but then I have heard the same of the APs (Chop being one I can remember straight off the top of my head).
Also, depending on which Hi-spec kit you purchase, they can actually come with Performance Friction rotars, so hardly cheap shoddy crap, as these are rated better than the AP discs by quite a few people.
As to kits overheating, this is entirely down to pad material and brake fluid. On my own Sapphire I had hell and all problems with my AP kit until I changed the fluid form the crap Dot 5.1 that comes as part of the kit to Castrol SRF.
Also the K-sport ones are doing VERY well on cars competing in time attack, so I wouldn't slate these either.
At the end of the day, you pays ya money and makes ya choice, and as long as you chose a kit with good pads and fluid (often where the cheap kits or even the expensive ones fall down), you are unlikely to tell the difference on the road (comparing like for like), other than perhaps disc longevity.
On the track, you are likely to get more consistant braking and the knowledge that you have a properly developed kit for the car.
If you're going to quote me, quote me correctly, I said that about the old style Compbrake callipers and the Wilwoods, which are prone to severe calliper flex
.For everyone's information, Hi-spec carried out torsional rigidity tests on the AP CP5200 callipers and then designed their own billet 4-pot ones to be as rigid as these benchmark items. With regard to them cracking, I have heard of two callipers crack around the bleed nipples, but then I have heard the same of the APs (Chop being one I can remember straight off the top of my head).
Also, depending on which Hi-spec kit you purchase, they can actually come with Performance Friction rotars, so hardly cheap shoddy crap, as these are rated better than the AP discs by quite a few people
.As to kits overheating, this is entirely down to pad material and brake fluid. On my own Sapphire I had hell and all problems with my AP kit until I changed the fluid form the crap Dot 5.1 that comes as part of the kit to Castrol SRF.
Also the K-sport ones are doing VERY well on cars competing in time attack, so I wouldn't slate these either.
At the end of the day, you pays ya money and makes ya choice, and as long as you chose a kit with good pads and fluid (often where the cheap kits or even the expensive ones fall down), you are unlikely to tell the difference on the road (comparing like for like), other than perhaps disc longevity.
On the track, you are likely to get more consistant braking and the knowledge that you have a properly developed kit for the car.
17-11-2008, 06:15 PM
#73
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Can someone please close this thread now, the bloke I was arguing with had the inevitable happen to him. Did a hard brake down from 140mph earlier and one of the threads for the braided line cracked under pressure, pissing fluid all over the place. No one hurt though.
Doubt I'd want that to happen on a 200mph car like Martoon's for example.
CASE CLOSED!
Doubt I'd want that to happen on a 200mph car like Martoon's for example.
CASE CLOSED!
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