bigchez

I went to Powerstation today for a rolling road day with another forum. The place is to be fair pretty awesome - very swish and clean with friendly staff.

Right my car was run on the rollers with me and another well fed chap sat in the back, and in 5th gear. I wondered about this as I thought dyno runs are usually done in 4th, but the guy said it was to stop wheelspin. Temp in the dyno room was mid 20 degrees.

I was expecting to make around 370-400 BHP and about the same torque. (I know 400 is optomistic, but the car is quick on the road.)

The car is standard comp and cams - basically stage 3 and a bit - T34.63, -34, Siemens Blacks, 25/26mm ported head, RS 500 cooler, grp A cone filter and a Karl Norris livemap on L6 mapped to 32 psi peak 28 midrange and 24 at the limiter. Karl said when he mapped it its a good one.

The fucking old shed only made 325 bhp and 353 lb-ft. Where the hell has 50 bhp gone? It drives fine - smooth as ever, is not using anymore oil than is usual with these, economy is unchanged, no missfires or stuttering, yet I've lost 50 fucking horses.

The graph looks fine to me, shape wise:



I asked him to stop @ 6.5k as I'm on track tomorrow @ ford fair and didn't want any damage, and power is still climbing but looking at how shallow its climbing its not gonna go past 335 before the limiter.

So, is my engine fucked? Was I being deluded expecting that kind of power? Do powerstation's rollers read low? Something else?

Its not making anymore power than it would have done on a bloody T3!!

Bullett

iTrader: (2)

oh not good.i know how you feel though,mine has lost 70ish somewhere.but mine doesnt pull right in the slightest.
if you find your 50 just check mines not there too for me.

rssteve

maby it was down to the warm wheather(sp)

AlexF

If the RR was at a different place or on a different day you can't compare results.

Andy_R

iTrader: (3)

Personaly I would'nt get too hung up on the figures as long as the car feels good then happy days - just enjoy it.

Remember the figures shown relate specificaly to that set of rollers on a given day with a specific set of circumstances, gear ran, diameter of rollers,ACT temps etc etc.
Whether one set of rollers reads right or wrong whether they are higher or lower than another is neither here nor there really - you just can't compair with any degree of accuracy one set of power figures with power figures from another rr'd.

foxy12304

dynos have to be calibrated and this is done to there descretion, you could go to one dyno and get whatever bhp, torque etc then go to another dyno around the corner and get different figures all together. maybe because the second dyno is slightly older (out of calibration) add that to ambient air temp crap then you have an answer..

foxy12304

also just had to add that just noticed that powerstation is home of dirk and rich, before they opened powerstation they owned a company call autopoint based in thetford norfolk (about 7 miles from me) and i can tell you those guys know there stuff trust me and if they dyno was out of calibration i would be surprised as i have used them myself a few times.

Gordon1

the drag does not look right

but you may be asking a bit much for 370

Turbo Zetec

iTrader: (1)

oh yes, they were great (autopoint)

one of my friends spent a large abount of money with them to get an unreliable 200bhp rs turbo

never again

Lloyd

imo,probably high charge temps,retarding the ign.
better cooling fans needed

Doby

Sounds correct at 24psi drop, a cracking reliable engine IMO,you need to be holding 28psi to get that bigger figure,dont be disheartened!

TIFF

NEVER EVER take your car to a RR if you are a number chaser.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it drives good on the road then it is fine.....

I thought it should be done in 4th tbh....
Charge temps will play a big part.

bigchez

Cheers for replies chaps! Feling bit more positive now, if it all seems reasonable.

I'm not necessarily after "x" number, 370, or at least 350+ was just pretty much what I expected. I was more concerned there was something seriously wrong with the engine as 325 seems low for the bits on the engine. I'll see how it feels on track tomorrow - hopefully it won't go bang .

what have others seen from a similar set up?

bigchez

Karl did say when he mapped it that he drops it at the top to get a bit more life out of the turbo, otherwise it might only last a few months. I do like the way the torque comes in in the midrange on this set up.

Fast Guy

Compare your wheel power there to the last print out you have for the run in 4th gear. Running in 5th will give you less wheel power due to the gearing.

Also ambient 26.5 is quite warm so you may lose some there.

bortaf

BHP is computed from the torque, as torque DECREASES with a higher gear it would read lower in 5th would it not?
or did they take the gearing into account in the calculations??

bigchez

It hadn't been run on the rollers after mapping, this was the first time on this set-up. I was wondering about 5th gear, as I thought usually they're done in 4th.

Meh. It seems to go OK on the road, I was just hoping for a bit more. Time to save for a new engine I think.

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

Richard.. Don't get blinkered into thinking you need more just because of a rolling road print out, does it feel fast? If the answer is yes then what do the figures mean?

bigchez

Yes it still feels fast. TBH I was more worried there was something wrong with it as I'm pretty paranoid about it after blowing it and it cutting out with no warning! Graph looks perfect shape (ie, no dips or holding back) and it still feels great to drive so I'll take everyone's advice and leave the figures for the pub, and get on with enjoying it.

First time on track with it tomorrow too.

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

You have nothing to prove so take it easy and enjoy, I'm there if you need a passenger

Roosie

iTrader: (8)

and my rs turbo went there and first run was 211bhp ray set it up and it and 2nd run was 193bhp then he had another tweek and it ended up 189bhp

useless twats i lost 20 odd bhp that day!

foxy12304

yeh ray took over from durk and rich they moved on...
maybe your car was boosting to high first run, maybe detonation, to rich, to lean, im sure once all of these factors where taken into account the rs must have felt smoother, better through the mid range?
no?

i spent 7k with ray at autopoint on my s1, this was about 10 years ago mind you and had 203bhp at flywheel and 170 at wheels he done me justice that was at 14psi

Stu.H

If Karl has set it up, its good

Billabong

Read what Tiff & Mart said - if it feels good on the road TO YOU, then - IT IS. Numbers are a by produdct NOT to get hooked on....... Real
world Power delivery can be so different to a set of peak figures on a graph......

captiva

I have a Karl Norris stage 3 chip and he told me that when the ACT gets above 55F the ignition is retarded by 11 degrees, your ACT was way above that. could that have something to do with it?

Roosie

iTrader: (8)

foxy you didnt live in Brandon did you?

tabetha

Ray at autopoint is a F*****G builder, he happens to own a small garage in Harleston, but he went from being a builder to a RR operator!!
My escort mk2 auto gained 23bhp after his tune up, ie when it was done PROPERLY, maybe that is why he is now SHUT ?
He still does diesel chips from his farm though.
Dirk and Rich, are very likeable chaps, who I also used, they could do a good job, IF THEY COULD BE BOTHERED, they weren't always bothered, but could turn out good work, many disgruntled customers with ray though.
He ran my MODIFIED escort at std ignition timing, when I enquired about a timing swing he said "not needed", different CR, different cam, different carb, different head, different exhaust.
I restricted the max advance by bending the pegs in to stop weights moving out so far, then gave it another 6-8 degrees initial advance, after farting around for a whole day it was perfect, and a subsequent run on RAY's rollers showed a 23bhp gain, 4 days later.
tabetha

pee vee

like you say 400 a bit optemistic on a t34?
either way, 350lb ft sounds good.. sounds like it was an ass dyno estimation
when you said 370-400? if so then your dyno is out a little bit mate

350lb ft in the heat is pretty good! ambiant temps of 20odd, charge temps probably in the 30s or possibly higher?? when the car has been sat around for a few mins on the rollers.
so IMO its a realistic figure for the conditions.*


* needless to say, im no expert, and have very limited experience, lol. but im sure its fine

heat soak into an intercooler is huge when the cars are just sat around after you switch them off, just prior to being driven onto the rollers.

GARETH T

maybe it was alot simpler than alot of people have thought
maybe the rolling road didnt provide enough load!

Bullett

iTrader: (2)

i'd say thats bang on.you can tell if a car doesnt feel right. mines lazy and has no low down get up and go but you can feel the engine wants to what its meant to. it managed 369 but its a very lethargic 369.even though its that power my old saff at 350 would whoop its arse,down to the way it pulled strong.

if it feels good and strong dont worry about it.

pete mcrash

iTrader: (1)

....on a rwd aswell..............thats too much for a 4x4, nevermind a 3door cos

Stavros

The complete bullshit huge tranny losses and running in 5th is enough to not take any notice of that rr number IMO

GARETH T

have you got a brake binding or something?

Fagin

Before people start slagging off the dyno they need to spend a bit of time and use the god given right to read up on how MAHA RR's calculate their figures. They are quite different to a Dyno Dynamics RR for instance.

Ignore the drag and atw figures, unless you are comparing against another MAHA using the same latest software. The Flywheel figures are comparable with a Dyno Dynamics RR. The RR software is designed for flywheel figure production, NOT ATW production.

Running in 5th on a MAHA would slightly affect the end figures, but on a RR day they will run the quickest method known to get traction, which makes sense when you are running a lot of cars.

Ironically some people in the Scoob world of tuning had suggested my figures had been inflated using PS's RR with my Spec C build (so I heard on the grapevine). That was until I ran it on another rolling road which measured 440bhp / 470lbft at the hubs! That put paid to that one. lol

The cooling / airflow for the dyno cell is also one of the best I have seen in the country.

But as people have already said, it is how it drives on the road that counts.

bud-weis

Agreed, without a boost plot it's hard to tell if you're getting the most out of the run.

4x4

are you saying that cars dont suffer from trans loss or you mean that they dont suffer from it as much as people think? i was still under the impression that they suffer from transmission losses, please dont kill me.... i seriously dont know.

bigchez

Drove to FF today and all seemed ok, was out on track @ 9:40 with the central group. I was dropping boost all the way through the session. I initially thought it was because it was so slippery and so I was wheelspinning and couldn't load up the engine. Then there was a big bang and no more boost at all and clouds of black smoke out the back from over fuelling apparantly. Naturally I shat myself and wondered how many grand this was going to cost.

I found this:



That's the turbo to intercooler pipe, blown to bits!!

Is it likely there may have been a small hole in this for a while which was causing a boost leak, then it got weak and went all of a sudden? Silicone hoses don't just go bang like that do they?

Put on a new Roose one at FF and the car is perfect again. Cheers to Rapid Ford for knocking a few quid off the asking price as I needed it to get home and had not enough cash on me!

I'm now not too fussed by the figures, I think everyone is right in saying that its how it drives that's important, not what it says on a bit of paper. I'm just wondering if it may have been split yesterday causing a bit of a leak, hence making low power.

Still all's well that ends well.

davidreader5

You mean 55c, i'm surprised its not more like 65 deg c, then retard ignition and maybe drop boost,

Regards Dave R.

rsnissan

iTrader: (9)

is it was a small leak then the turbo would have been overspeeding to compensate on the RR this might have increased the charge temps and the ecu may have backed off the ignition resulting in a lower figure.......................

OR I could be talking shite lol