daviddunlop83

iTrader: (7)

Just wondering what everyone thinks of which management is best to run a sierra 4x4 cosworth around 550BHP with anti lag and launch control?

L8 with Motorsport developments chip

DTA

Omex

Autronic

Or any others?

Which one do you all recommend?

Thanks

pa_sjo

Minefield

MikeR

I guess one question is what does the engine builder/tuner suggest ? if you built it yourself then which tuners do you feel comfortable with based on reputations and any friends that have used various people,

Mike

Staffi

iTrader: (1)

Tough one this, think the answers will be mixed...

gus

iTrader: (1)

which tuner would you use to map it


maybe its worth having a chat with your tuner of choice, see what he suggests

Ginge !

Mark RS

iTrader: (13)

has any body heard much about dta

Nicole

There are so many right answers to this one, but lets start with a simple question..

1) Do you allready have the L8?

If so, do you have the ALS & LC?


If the answer to the above is all No, then you have to buy:

L8. £200?
PF09 £80
ALS 7 LC £450
Live map £500
Total: £1230

So, costs for aftermarket are similar i guess but you need a loom as well in most cases... Bu be aware, you need to find an esxceptional mapper to get aftermarket to drive like a well mapped L8. And on some of the ecu's you have mentioned even god couldnt achieve it.

Finally, be aware that many ecu LC systems are simply lowered rev limiters and are nothing like as effective as our LC program that brings the engine onto hard boost on the startline.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Id sooner use autronic out of that lot personally, especially as its actually better at limphome strageties than the L8

Thats the ironic thing, on a lot of cars when you remove the standard management and put on aftermarket it becomes less tolerant of sensor faults, but in the case of the old L8 it actually gets more tolerant when you go to autronic not less, lol

Dead map sensor for example, Sm4 still drive remarkabley well, L8 you'll be lucky if you can even get it to run!


That said, ive drive a couple of L8 cars at that level of tune, and they do drive like factory still if well mapped, so it IS capable, but paying well over a grand for a 20 year old ecu to be fucked about with that has no warranty, seems a bit foolish to me compared to getting something brand new with a warranty.

Id also argue that on a 550bhp engine you need a new loom whatever you go for, including the L8 really

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

is that a good make

tabetha

Drive like a well mapped L8, what drugs do you take ?
As any ecu could have PRECISELY the same data how do you arrive at your statement.
I use emarald massively better on fucntions versus cost compared to L8, does all you mention and LOTS more the L8 can only dream of, as well as having THREE maps, (for different fuels etc) or whatever you want to use them for or not, all mapped for £275 for all three.
This also has boost control pressure versus RPM, LC AL, runs coilpack direct(no amps), or std dizzy whatever you want, fan control fan control again, turbo timer, afterrun temp or timer settings.
This one is mapped by the people who DESIGNED/BUILT it, not by somebody who mods then at a vastly more expensive price, so you get to speak to the people who really do know the system better than anybody else, future upgrades are a FREE download away, in gear adjustable boost, there is stack loads more, has been tested in excess of 40,000 RPM, and was still accurate
emeraldm3d.com
tabetha

pa_sjo

Dear tabetha, it appears to have a fundamental hole in your knowledge about ECU's. Two aftermarket ECU's with identical tables could (and would) most likely drive completely differently! ECU's are not about featuresets, they are about internal control strategies, and this is the golden point!

Personally i'd have much more faith in an OE ECU supplier (eg, Marelli) than an aftermarket company, when it comes to these strategies.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Id appreciate it if you changed your tone mate. The only drug i can suggest after reading the statement you refer to is perhaps a truth serum?

The ecu hardware and firmware has a huge effect on the way an engine actually responds, especially with the size of injectors used at such horsepower levels. Transient Fuel Correction parameters and algorythms to predict fuel transport and wastage are paramount at this level and i recall from the last time i used it that emerald has very little of this programming.
But maybe its changed, perhaps you have got a screenshot of yours please?

As for ANy ECU havig EXACTLY teh same data. How will you achieve that if teh tables are different sizes, or in fact one has tables the other hasnt? Good lord... give the argument some thought or at least load your weapon before you start trying to shoot people down with blanks. ROFLOL



I can do that on L8.


L8 does that as standard. Also vs ACT though not just RPM.

We can do that. (And with real strategies to bring in hard boost. 40psi on the startline in neutral if required on most turbos. can Emerald?)

We can do that on L8.

Good feature. Cossie has one amp as std though so only £40 saving.


This one is mapped by the people who DESIGNED/BUILT it, not by somebody who mods then at a vastly more expensive price,

So electronic engineers are the worlds best mappers then yes?
I bet you a substantial sum that Bosch./Siemens./Weber/Denso etc do not have any electronics engineers mapping their engines mate. Are you on drugs?

Finally, lets have a full price to convert the maps cossie over to Emerald please, as that is what would benefit him the most of course. So ECU, sensr changes if required, loom and mapping. Your not here just top argue im sure, help teh map out like Nicole did with some structured comments and pricing..

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

been through most and gone back to dta ,emerald is a good system in the hands of the maker but a dismal system to use on a live map ect

Originally Posted by gus
which tuner would you use to map it


maybe its worth having a chat with your tuner of choice, see what he suggests

best advice really if you do have a tuner that is trustworthy then there you go if not and you a aftermarkert ecu then go to the sorce or a tuner with the vast knowledge of the system you choose but as i said above ive been messing with a few and they all have there high/low points of use

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

including loom and have dave map it no more than 1400 pound BUT thats a map with no addons such as launch and antislag so nicols quote is well within budget

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Tabetha, cant you just be a good little fella and leave the grownups to have a talk without interupting them?

What you are saying is absolute nonsense and demonstrates that you have utterly no depth of knowledge what so ever, fair enough if you had said "for peak power" or something like that, then yes each ecu is much of a muchness in that limited respect, but under transition or when it comes to dealing with temperature changes etc, they are NOT the same.

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

SOOOO glad that Tabetha is starting to show he actually just talks COMPLETE AND UTTER BOLLOCKS and has no real experience of anything that he reckons he is guru of!

The L8 bollocks may just have shaded his 'Bugatti Veyron being crap and made from the Skoda parts bin' comments as the most ill informed and wank posts ever to grace this forum.

never make me a mod Stu... I'd HAVE to ban people for shite like this! GRRRR!

Chip, you and me have both driven my old Sierra on both aftermarket management and on L8 at around 550bhp......

It was MILES better on L8 wasn't it!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Porkie for mod

Especially now he doesnt own a ford, he'd fit right into the mod team

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

what was it and what wasd better about the l8 lee

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Porkie, to be fair mate, when I drove it on L8, it was also on the RIGHT turbo, which means its hard for me to make a comparison accurately between just the ECU's

Bottom line though, is that car drove PERFECTLY once it ended up on L8 and a GT30, there is no way it could have driven any better no matter what any ECU did to it than how Karl had it mapped on the L8, I was deliberately trying to catch it out at one point, low rpm at a steady small throttle angle and then banging the throttle open, off and back on, that sort of thing, and I couldnt find the merest hint of hesitation or incorrect fuelling or a spurious timing value that caused a miss, it did everything it did absolutely perfectly.

Literally cant fault it.

R5FORD

iTrader: (1)

whats peoples thoughts on Pectel T2??

Chip

iTrader: (3)

A fantastic motorsport ecu that is feature rich and reliable, ive not used one personally, but I would wager they are nowhere near as easy to get to drive nicely as an L8 though, if its even possible to match it at all of course, so prepare to dig deep for mapping time if its a road car and you want it spot on, T6 even more so.

Renton

Give Martoon a shout for T2 price. I believe he either is, or will soon be a Pectel dealer

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

and thats EXACTLY how you can catch out aftermarket stuff in my personal experience of Pectel and SECS.

drive along part thottle. plant it.. lift.. plant and you WILL get a little stutter, hiccup or slight hesistation.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Indeed as opposed to getting whiplash in your car from the power coming in and out so faultlessly

R5FORD

iTrader: (1)

im having T2 with my new engine just wanted to see what peoples opinions on it are.. it will be mapped by harvey so should be all good

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Harvey has put so many hours in on the YB on T2 no doubt that he will know EXACTLY what to do with the transient fuelling to make it work well, so the hard work has been paid for over time by multiple people, this is the good thing about getting a tuner to build and map the engine, they already know before its finished what they are doing with it, but when you take some random engine you have cobbled together to them, thats when it takes the time.

Im sure it will be great

R5FORD

iTrader: (1)

yh it should be awesome when its done. i was going to opt for a gt30/T4 bu then had to run 8injectors and T6.. thought id stick with a roller T38 and then go from there maybe next year..

should be aweseom.

Bullett

iTrader: (2)

this will be a good read.so glad im on L8 already.so eventually it should be a good car

daviddunlop83

iTrader: (7)

L8. £200?
PF09 £80
ALS 7 LC £450
Live map £500
Total: £1230

It was running the L8 with one of stu's chips with anti lag and launch control but with standard internals in the engine running abour 420BHP.

R5FORD

iTrader: (1)

you will need your chip re written for your new spec. if i were you id have it live mapped by stu also.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I dont understand what his logic was for thining that swapping to a GT30 means you need more injectors or better management, 4 correctly sized injectors and T2 should be perfectly capable of that.

Would be interesting to hear his thoughts as to why, perhaps you or mike could ask him or direct him at this thread?

Ryan

a 3k extra bill for about 40-50 hp

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

By the way... GREAT post by Nicole!

Very impressive



and this dude clearly knows his onions!

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

the last 50 bhp is far more expensive than the first 50 bhp on any car

Ryan

im not debating that tony, but why go for an aftermarket management, purely to then change it again, along with the loom, and add an extra 4 injectors, then turbo, then possilby cams.

as im sure the t2 is perfectly capable of controlling 4 750/800/1000CC injectors, so can run all the power he could ever possilbly need.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

So literally all you need is the live map mate. £500 job done. The end. Aftermarket cannot compete in your scenario, bar ONE issue.

That issue is that its only £500 if I personally map it, as to my knowledge, I am the only person who can live map the L8 ECU and leave you with the ALS & LC features you have allready paid for. As anyone else will be charging you for it all again, although that said, i dont know if anyone else in teh UK can supply it at all for that matter...

So, if you dont want me to map it for some reason (which is fine of course, i dont expect you to at all) , then its back to teh drawing board.

pa_sjo

Chip- properly mapped T2+ cars drive better than Weber ones, in my experience.. it's one of the very, very few aftermarket ECU's that do have equal or better strategies than a lot of OE ones.. but of course it has OE and motorsport pedigree unlike most of the trash out there.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Ive yet to drive ANY engine at getting on for 300bhp per litre that responds as nicely as Porkie's, as mentioned, it was flawless, so I dont see how it could actually drive "better" but I'll take your word for it that it can drive just as well, as I do know of some T2 cars that drive fine too.

As you say, its been properly developed, most ECU's are just a couple of blokes in a shed somewhere knocking them up, with no real knowledge of what they are doing to the extent the manufacturers have with regards to things like driveability.

Emerald is an example of that, dont get me wrong, fair play to them, theyve come up with a pretty reasonable product for not a lot of money and im positive i couldnt do any better, but ultimately its just a couple of geezers in a shed having a go at mimicking millions of pounds of development and it tends to show in the results. I know Dave does a great job with it, but I dont beleive that (particuarly on turbo cars) even he can get OE-spec results from it.

Turbosystems

iTrader: (5)

I would say alot of that should be accredited to the mapper and the amount of work he did to perfect the maps, particulary the TFC So I would say a big up to Karl here and well deserved IMO