bud-weis

It's better to have it and to turn it off, than not have it at all

some cars 'traction control' systems are pathetic anyhow, they'll do little to stop you doing anything....some are EXTREMELY clever, like the BMW's above.

dojj

iTrader: (3)

i expect a throughly good write up in a future issue of reline

with pics and times and techincal boffinery as to why it was quicker and excuses as to why yuo should have won but for the damned tc hampering you at the start of the race etc

any pics of some redline cheerleaders?

foreigneRS

that's the kind of generalisation that gets people into trouble though. they get into a car with ESP and think that it will get them around a 30 mph corner at 80 mph and it won't. obviously you know that stu, but there may be a numpty out there reading this that does not.

yes it's a good safety net against accidental or misjudged input, but it cannot defy the laws of physics.

incidentally, one of the first cars fitted with it was the mercedes a-class, as without it the car would roll over during certain sudden manoeuvres (the 'elk test') now variations of it are used for not only for safety reasons with braking in a corner or on a split grip surface, but also for off road vehicles to enable better hill climbing and descent

dojj

iTrader: (3)

i drove a vectra and the tc almost caused me to have an accident as it would kill the power and then leave it off for a few seconds

deffo a top end addition as they can afford to make it better

Benni

Why so Stavros? Smoother is faster surely on a track?

Benni.

foreigneRS

some wheelspin is usually faster out of a corner, even on a bike

Benni

You learn something new everyday. Does this apply to FWD too?

Benni.

foreigneRS

yes

Marc LJX

iTrader: (2)

As said BMW system is great at keeping you out the ditch when your not paying full attention
If i want to drive mine a bit quicker though, it gets turned fully off!!! It just doesnt feel right with it on, the thing starts to interfere with what youre doing, and doesnt inspire confidence because it starts to act in a way you werent expecting...

In the May ring trip i forgot to turn it off one lap, and it threw a hissy fit before halfway. Every time i tried to put my foot down there was no power and the warning light was flashing like mad. I realised what it was, turned it off and normal service resumed The system must not like being worked too hard consistently, so goes into safe mode to cool down or something? Its worked fine ever since anyway!

Stavros

Only if you listen to internet forum mongaloids with no real experience, who dont realise race cars try to cut down on wheelspin and under/oversteer to make tyres last, not because it is fastest...

foreigneRS

what the hell is the point to going on track then? if you want to drive like that, take miss daisy down the shops.

a car with ESP switched on will be absolutely no fun on track as the ESP will interfere and cut the power just when you want it the most and not necessarily just when the tyres start to slip. they also have sensors to measure the lean angle and rate of turn which on the track will probably be high enough to trigger it.

don't believe us if you like, but wait until you try it. i bet you end up switching it off.

dunketh

I would love to try it, and own one. Sadly modern performance cars are not within my budget. (house, dog, wife..etc..)
I do really miss having a RWD motor though. You can really 'drive' them. FWD always seems a compromise and anything with a decent amount of power torque steers like a bitch.
Thats not to say I never fish-tailed the Minor and whacked a tyre off its rim - but then you live and learn.
I'm certain I'd probably kill myself in a proper high power rwd motor, driver aids or not, though I'd die with a big fat grin on my face.

foreigneRS

not true. things with unequal length drive shafts tend to torque steer worse than those with equal length as well as geometry playing a part.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

You're gay - please let me have a drive at the next Bedford .

JamesH

iTrader: (21)

When F1 cars used to have TC it allowed around 5% wheelspin

Stavros

I agree with Mikes last post, apart from the bit about him driving

Some of the reason they minimise wheelspin is for tyre longevity issues too.

And this is about stability control as much as anything though, which is seperate again to traction control, and even with TC totally off stability control can still slow you down in some occasions.

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

On my focus ST, I tend to turn off the ESP in dry weather when driving fast on roads I know well as I find on some corners the car is more than able to go round yet the ecu applies the brakes over cautiously IMO.

Always have it switched on in damp or cold conditions as its save my ass a few times already

Dave Henshall

not true, my st has around 280 brake and 330 lb/ft or torque and there is not a whiff of torque steer, and thats fwd, as mentioned it is all to do the the geometery setup.

yes in times of old a fwd car with anything like pokable power would have your grabing on for dear life when u booted it, not any more

RichardPON

Paul just told me he would let you, if you learned to spell!

dojj

iTrader: (3)

i always thoguht that a certain amount of wheels spin out of a corner stopped the engine from bogging down

is there any truth to this?

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Done - now when are we on track then?

foreigneRS

you have a funny way of spelling Bedford

Edmund

ESP is a great thing,many will admit to not being a racing driver so leave it on for safety,of course a proper driver will go faster with it off,but a normal driver will go faster with it on purely because of confidence,of course more likely to still crash than the proper driver!

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Typing too quickly does that . I think I can speil Begfjord .

PeterRST

iTrader: (1)

The real benefit of ESP is that the manufacturers can finally build properly aggressive FWD cars with bucket-loads of turn in grip and a loose rear ends because the ESP will prevent the grannies from landing in a ditch on the way to Tesco's... :P

foreigneRS

if it was that easy, why the need for the pop up rear spoiler added to the rear of the audi tt?

Paul Eggleton

RIMMER!

PeterRST

iTrader: (1)

That was simply a case of poor aerodynamics...

But honestly, compare a MkI Mondeo with a brand new one. Turn the ESP off and see how easy it is to get the back end out.

cabrio zo

The Grannies should stick to their 1.1 Fiestas for pootling to the shops in!

Z

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

No, you're Rimmer, by comparison, I'd be the Cat .

Edmund

no way was it poor aerodynamics many top line cars either lower or raise a spoiler after a certain mph for extra downforce to keep stability,not 100% needed but a good extra safety feature.

Paul Eggleton

Yeah, but Rimmer went on to do other quality work like The Brittas Empire, last time I looked you were doing storey makers on CBeebies

PeterRST

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure which model of TT foreignRS was referring to but the very 1st series of TTs came without a spoiler. Then there was a range of mysterious accidents, all at "autobahn speeds". In each case it was reported that the car had suddenly spun out at high speed. As a reaction to that, Audi added a little bootlid spoiler to all cars.

For the new series TT they apparently decided to make a pop-up spoiler so they get the necessary downforce without spoiling the looks.

Obviously ESP can only get the best out of the available chassis. So if a car tends to get unstable because it's got "poor aerodynamics" (like the very 1st TTs) there's not much electronical driving aids can do about this...

foreigneRS

that was what i was referring to

James

i like esp, the focus for sure doesn't handle as nice with it turned off imho.

and the transit with esp, well, white van man has never been around a roundabout so fast!

Stavros

Well yesterday I raced ar rd3 of the Toyota Sprint Series and heres my 2nd set of findings of the ESP and TA.

And bear in mind Toyota ESP and TA is WAY less intrusive than some, IMO less than VW/Audi, BMW, and DEFFO Vauxhall, not sure where Ford sits in the group, not driven a fast modern Ford hard enough round bends to be sure.

The 2nd round it was fastest for me with ESC and TA both off, by a fair amount, mostly due to it being so tight i was best off setting the car up for oversteer in a couple of places.

This round, at Teeside which is a much faster wider proper track (was using up to the top of 4th, last track was top of 3rd at best), i was of course much faster with TA off, but was much faster (by a couple of secs over a 1min lap) with the ESP on.
The track was a bit wet and slippy, esp compared to the last round, so it may be down to that.
One things thats 100% tho, is unless you totally suck, its deffo much faster with the traction control off.

The MAIN point here though, seeing as nobody else talking about anything thats timed or in competition, is its MUCH LESS FUN with the driver aids on!
And surely, even tho Ford ownership seems mostly about Forum willy waving rather than actual fun, FUN is the most important bit.
Even with the TA off but ESP on, which was my fastest runs, it was WAY LESS fun than with ESP off, and thats a fookin FWD diesel, never mind anything RWD or whatever! Properly uneventful boring run, albeit faster.
And with TA on too id lose the will to live its no boring.

So to sum up, driver aids are boring as fuck, and if you got em on when you trying to have fun or be on a track day, you need your head checked IMO.