RELIGION - are you a believer???
04-05-2008, 09:31 AM
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RELIGION - are you a believer???
when i studied A level philosophy i was far too young and stoned to really understand/take it in. i mean it all made sence, but then when your a stoned teenager you can make anything impossible real and simple things like getting you head around someone riding a bike or the imense flavour of a mars bar can be mind blowing
during the 2 years 1 year was theology 'the study of religion and its existance'. Now im older but maby not wiser. im begining to become intrested in this subject.
Why, well Religion is, dare i say one of the major root causes of all wars and suffering.
myself being an atheist, im intrested to see why people are religious, my theory is rather than a core belief in a god, their belief lies in the fundamentals of their chosen religion. or in otherwords religion is more a way of life/ a club/ a social path.
I understand religion to some people is very important, and id like to keep this thread open minded and aware that people do have different views. so this demands respect.
THE ARGUMENTS FOR THE EXISTANCE OF GOD
Over the centuries, there have been many attempts by religious philosophers to prove the existence of God, and a canon of classic arguments has been developed. Not all of these arguments have their origins in Christian philosophy; Jewish and Muslim philosophers have made significant contributions to the philosophy of religion, and both Plato and Aristotle have influenced its development.
Recent decades have seen a rise in interest in natural theology and the philosophy of religion. Each of the classic theistic proofs has been revived and refined, presented in revised form and defended afresh. Whether any of these arguments for the existence of God is successful, of course, remains controversial.
The theistic proofs section sets out to explain each of the common philosophical arguments for theism, and so to explore the case for the existence of God.
Arguments for the Existence of God
The arguments themselves are arranged under the following headings: Pascal’s Wager, The Ontological Argument, The Cosmological Argument (including the first cause argument), The Teleological Argument (i.e. the argument from design), The Moral Argument, Religious Experience and The Argument from Miracles.
There are, however, two preliminary issues to be dealt with: the God’s Intrinsic Probability, which will bear on the degree of suspicion with which we view the purported theistic proofs, and Reformed Epistemology, which holds that belief in God can be rational even if it cannot be supported by evidence.
Pascal’s Wager
Pascal’s Wager is an argument for belief in God based not on an appeal to evidence that God exists but rather based on an appeal to self-interest. It is in our interests to believe in God, the argument suggests, and it is therefore rational for us to do so.
The claim that it is in our interests to believe in God is supported by a consideration of the possible consequences of belief and unbelief. If we believe in God, the argument runs, then if he exists then we will receive an infinite reward in heaven while if he does not then we have lost little or nothing.
If we do not believe in God, the argument continues, then if he exists then we will receive an infinite punishment in hell while he does not then we will have gained little or nothing.
Either receiving an infinite reward in heaven or losing little or nothing is clearly preferable to either receiving an infinite punishment in hell or gaining little or nothing. It is therefore in our interests, and so rational, to believe in God.
The Ontological Argument
The The Ontological Argument is an argument that attempts to prove the existence of God through abstract reasoning alone. The argument begins with an explication of the concept of God. Part of what we mean when we speak of “God” is “perfect being”; that is what the word “God” means. A God that exists, of course, is better than a God that doesn’t. To speak of God as a perfect being is therefore to imply that he exists. If God’s perfection is a part of the concept of God, though, and if God’s perfection implies God’s existence, then God’s existence is implied by the concept of God. When we speak of “God” we cannot but speak of a being that exists. To say that God does not exist is to contradict oneself; it is literally to speak nonsense.
The Cosmological Argument
The The Cosmological Argument is the argument from the existence of the world or universe to the existence of a being that brought it into and keeps it in existence. It comes in two forms, one modal (having to do with possibility and the other temporal (having to do with time).
The modal cosmological argument, the argument from contingency, suggests that because the universe might not have existed (i.e. is contingent), we need some explanation of why it does. Whereever there are two possibilities, it suggests, something must determine which of those posibilities is realised. As the universe is contingent, then, there must be some reason for its existence; it must have a cause. In fact, the only kind of being whose existence requires no explanation is a necessary being, a being that could not have failed to exist. The ultimate cause of everything must therefore be a necessary being, such as God.
The temporal, kalam cosmological argument begins by arguing that the past is finite. The idea that the universe has an infinite past stretching back in time into infinity is, the argument notes, both philosophically and scientifically problematic; all indications are that there is a point in time at which the universe began to exist. This beginning must either have been caused or uncaused. It cannot have been uncaused, though, for the idea of an uncaused event is absurd; nothing comes from nothing. The universe must therefore have been brought into existence by something outside it. The kalam argument thus confirms one element of Christianity, the doctrine of Creation.
The Teleological Argument
The teleological argument is the argument from the order in the world to the existence of a being that created it with a specific purpose in mind. The universe is a highly complex system. The scale of the universe alone is astounding, and the natural laws that govern it perplex scientists still after generations of study. It is also, however, a highly ordered system; it serves a purpose. The world provides exactly the right conditions for the development and sustenance of life, and life is a valuable thing. That this is so is remarkable; there are numerous ways in which the universe might have been different, and the vast majority of possible universes would not have supported life. To say that the universe is so ordered by chance is therefore unsatisfactory as an explanation of the appearance of design around us. It is far more plausible, and far more probable, that the universe is the way it is because it was created by God with life in mind.
The Moral Argument
The moral argument is the argument from the existence or nature of morality to the existence of God. Two forms of moral argument are distinguished: formal and perfectionist.
The formal moral argument takes the form of morality to imply that it has a divine origin: morality consists of an ultimately authoritative set of commands; where can these commands have come from but a commander that has ultimate authority?
The perfectionist moral argument sets up a problem: how can it be that morality requires perfection of us, then morality cannot require of us more than we can give, but that we cannot be perfect? The only way to resolve this paradox, the argument suggests, is to posit the existence of God.
The Argument from Religious Experience
The argument from religious experience is the argument that personal religious experiences can prove God’s existence to those that have them. One can only perceive that which exists, and so God must exist because there are those that have experienced him. While religious experiences themselves can only constitute direct evidence of God’s existence for those fortunate enough to have them, the fact that there are many people who testify to having had such experiences constitutes indirect evidence of God’s existence even to those who have not had such experiences themselves.
The Argument from Miracles
The argument from miracles is the argument that the occurrence of miracles demonstrates both the existence of God and the truth of Christianity. If the Bible is to be believed, then Jesus’ ministry was accompanied by frequent miraculous signs that his claims and his teachings were endorsed by God the Father. His resurrection from the dead was, of course, the greatest of these, and is still taken by many today to be a solid foundation for their faith. Miracles typically involve the suspension of the natural operation of the universe as some supernatural event occurs. That can only happen, of course, given the existence of some supernatural being.
Arguments for Agnosticism
Agnosticism is the view that knowledge of whether or not God exists is unattainable, that we cannot be justified in believing either that God does exist or that he does not.
There are two approaches to arguing for this view: first, it can be argued that knowledge of God’s existence is unattainable because no evidence could ever justify religious belief, and second, it can be argued that knowledge of God’s existence is unattainable because evidence of God’s existence is unattainable. One argument of each kind is considered here.
The Argument from Uncertainty
The argument from uncertainty takes the fact that we cannot achieve certainty as to whether God exists as justification for agnosticism. Whatever evidence there is for theism and for atheism is fallible, the argument suggests, and therefore ought to be rejected. Of course, we accept fallible evidence as sufficient justification for many of our beliefs, so this argument will only be persuasive if there is some reason to require better evidence when answering religious questions than we require in these other cases. One possible reason for so doing is the importance of being right concerning the existence of God.
The Argument from Incomprehensibility
An alternative approach to arguing for agnosticism is the argument from incomprehensibility. Theists have often been content to say that we are unable to comprehend God, that his being transcends our mundane experiences and that our concepts, which are derived from such experiences, cannot be used to describe him. If true, then this might be thought to count in favour of agnosticism; if we cannot comprehend God, then how can we reason with any confidence concerning his existence?
Arguments for Atheism
Though the history of the philosophy of religion has been dominated by attempts to prove the existence of God, there also exist a number of arguments that seek to disprove theism. These range from a priori arguments that the concept of God is logically incoherent, to a posteriori arguments that the world is not the way that it would be if God existed. The atheistic proofs section surveys these arguments for atheism.
Arguments for Atheism
Within the Arguments for Atheism section, the arguments are arranged under the following headings: The Presumption of Atheism, The Problem of Evil, Problems with Omnipotence (including the paradox of the stone), Problems with Omniscience, Immortality, Heaven and Hell , Petitionary Prayer, The Argument from Autonomy, The Psychogenesis of Religion, and Religion and Memetics.
The Presumption of Atheism
Atheists often suggest that theirs is the default position, that there is a presumption of atheism. This places the burden of proof on the theist; if the theist is unable to make a persuasive case for the existence of God, then the atheist is justified in his atheism. The case for the presumption of atheism may be made in two ways, one resulting in a presumption of weak atheism, and the other in a presumption of strong atheism.
The Problem of Evil
The problem of evil is the problem of reconciling the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent God with the existence of a world full of evil and suffering. If God is omniscient then he knows how to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering. If God is omnipotent then he is able to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering. If God is benevolent then he wants to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering. But if God knows how to, is able to and wants to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering, then why does he not do so? The simplest answer is that God does not do so because he does not exist. This is by far the most popular argument for atheism.
Problems With Divine Omnipotence
The doctrine of divine omnipotence is the doctrine that God is all-powerful. It is sometimes argued, however, that the concept of omnipotence is paradoxical, logically incoherent, and so that it is logically impossible that there be any being that is omnipotent. This position, if it can be sustained, precludes the existence of God.
Problems with Divine Omniscience
The doctrine of divine omniscience is the doctrine that God is all-knowing. The doctrine of divine omniscience, though, faces several philosophical objections; there are a number of arguments in the philosophy of religion that purport to demonstrate that God cannot possibly know everything. These include arguments that the doctrine of divine omniscience is logically incoherent, that it is inconsistent with the further Christian doctrine of divine impeccability (i.e. the doctrine that God cannot sin), and that it is refuted by the fact of human freedom. If any of these arguments is successful, then there can be no omniscient God.
Problems with Immortality
Even if we can make sense of the justice of heaven and hell, there remains a further problem: immortality. Death, by definition, involves the destruction of a person; if a person is not destroyed by death then they did not die. Once destroyed, though, it is unclear whether a person can be recreated. It is possible, no doubt, for there to be a subsequent person, like to them in every respect, but there is no reason to think that that will be the very same person that died, rather than merely a replica of them.
Problems with Divine Justice
The doctrine of divine justice is also subject to criticism. First of all, it appears to conflict with the idea that God is forgiving. A just God sees that each person gets what he or she deserves; a forgiving God sees that some people’s sins go unpunished. Second, the Christian view of heaven and hell appear in many ways to be unjust. Hell, for instance, appears to inflict an infinitely great punishment upon those who are sent there. How, though, can any finite sin deserve infinite punishment? Just punishments and rewards are proportionate to the badness or goodness of the person that deserves them. Heaven and hell though, are all or nothing. They therefore cannot be just.
Petitionary Prayer
A further doctrinal problem with Christianity concerns petitionary prayer, prayer in which we request (petition) that God do something for us. God’s omniscience implies that he will already have taken all of the information about our needs and desires into account when deciding what to do. His benevolence implies that he will act in our best interests unless there is a good reason not to (and if there is such a reason, our prayers will not remove it). Prayer, then, should never change God’s mind; petitionary prayer shouldn’t ever work.
The Argument from Autonomy
The argument from autonomy is the argument that the existence of morally autonomous agents is inconsistent with the existence of God, and so that the fact that morally autonomous agents do exist disproves the existence of God. God, if he exists, is worthy of worship. If a being is truly worthy of worship, though, then he is entitled to our unconditional obedience. Moral agents, however, cannot be required to give unconditional obedience to any agent. Moral agency requires autonomy, and so the idea of a moral duty to give up one’s autonomy is incoherent; in giving up one’s autonomy one would cease to be a moral agent so would cease to have moral duties at all. We cannot, therefore, have a duty of unconditional obedience to any agent, and there therefore cannot be any agent that worthy of worship. There can therefore be no God.
The Psychogenesis of Religion
The psychology of religion seeks to explain how patterns of thought in the human mind give rise to religious belief, to give a naturalistic account of religion based on human psychology. Psychology is thus used to explain away religious belief. The most influential critics of religion to have used this approach are Ludwig Feuerbach and Sigmund Freud.
Religion and Memetics
A final critique of religion comes from the field of memetics, and the suggestion that there is a God meme. Memetics seeks to apply the theory of evolution not to biological organisms but to ideas. Ideas, like animals, replicate themselves and compete for survival. The same process of natural selection that ensures that only the fittest animals survive will therefore also ensure that only the fittest ideas survive. Fitness of ideas, though, need not be a guide to truth; fitness is simply the ability to survive and reproduce. If the memetic critique of religion is right, then the success of religion can be fully explained by its preference of faith to reason, and its emphasis on evangelism.
well done if you managed to read it all. so whats peoples arguments on this.
during the 2 years 1 year was theology 'the study of religion and its existance'. Now im older but maby not wiser. im begining to become intrested in this subject.
Why, well Religion is, dare i say one of the major root causes of all wars and suffering.
myself being an atheist, im intrested to see why people are religious, my theory is rather than a core belief in a god, their belief lies in the fundamentals of their chosen religion. or in otherwords religion is more a way of life/ a club/ a social path.
I understand religion to some people is very important, and id like to keep this thread open minded and aware that people do have different views. so this demands respect.
THE ARGUMENTS FOR THE EXISTANCE OF GOD
Over the centuries, there have been many attempts by religious philosophers to prove the existence of God, and a canon of classic arguments has been developed. Not all of these arguments have their origins in Christian philosophy; Jewish and Muslim philosophers have made significant contributions to the philosophy of religion, and both Plato and Aristotle have influenced its development.
Recent decades have seen a rise in interest in natural theology and the philosophy of religion. Each of the classic theistic proofs has been revived and refined, presented in revised form and defended afresh. Whether any of these arguments for the existence of God is successful, of course, remains controversial.
The theistic proofs section sets out to explain each of the common philosophical arguments for theism, and so to explore the case for the existence of God.
Arguments for the Existence of God
The arguments themselves are arranged under the following headings: Pascal’s Wager, The Ontological Argument, The Cosmological Argument (including the first cause argument), The Teleological Argument (i.e. the argument from design), The Moral Argument, Religious Experience and The Argument from Miracles.
There are, however, two preliminary issues to be dealt with: the God’s Intrinsic Probability, which will bear on the degree of suspicion with which we view the purported theistic proofs, and Reformed Epistemology, which holds that belief in God can be rational even if it cannot be supported by evidence.
Pascal’s Wager
Pascal’s Wager is an argument for belief in God based not on an appeal to evidence that God exists but rather based on an appeal to self-interest. It is in our interests to believe in God, the argument suggests, and it is therefore rational for us to do so.
The claim that it is in our interests to believe in God is supported by a consideration of the possible consequences of belief and unbelief. If we believe in God, the argument runs, then if he exists then we will receive an infinite reward in heaven while if he does not then we have lost little or nothing.
If we do not believe in God, the argument continues, then if he exists then we will receive an infinite punishment in hell while he does not then we will have gained little or nothing.
Either receiving an infinite reward in heaven or losing little or nothing is clearly preferable to either receiving an infinite punishment in hell or gaining little or nothing. It is therefore in our interests, and so rational, to believe in God.
The Ontological Argument
The The Ontological Argument is an argument that attempts to prove the existence of God through abstract reasoning alone. The argument begins with an explication of the concept of God. Part of what we mean when we speak of “God” is “perfect being”; that is what the word “God” means. A God that exists, of course, is better than a God that doesn’t. To speak of God as a perfect being is therefore to imply that he exists. If God’s perfection is a part of the concept of God, though, and if God’s perfection implies God’s existence, then God’s existence is implied by the concept of God. When we speak of “God” we cannot but speak of a being that exists. To say that God does not exist is to contradict oneself; it is literally to speak nonsense.
The Cosmological Argument
The The Cosmological Argument is the argument from the existence of the world or universe to the existence of a being that brought it into and keeps it in existence. It comes in two forms, one modal (having to do with possibility and the other temporal (having to do with time).
The modal cosmological argument, the argument from contingency, suggests that because the universe might not have existed (i.e. is contingent), we need some explanation of why it does. Whereever there are two possibilities, it suggests, something must determine which of those posibilities is realised. As the universe is contingent, then, there must be some reason for its existence; it must have a cause. In fact, the only kind of being whose existence requires no explanation is a necessary being, a being that could not have failed to exist. The ultimate cause of everything must therefore be a necessary being, such as God.
The temporal, kalam cosmological argument begins by arguing that the past is finite. The idea that the universe has an infinite past stretching back in time into infinity is, the argument notes, both philosophically and scientifically problematic; all indications are that there is a point in time at which the universe began to exist. This beginning must either have been caused or uncaused. It cannot have been uncaused, though, for the idea of an uncaused event is absurd; nothing comes from nothing. The universe must therefore have been brought into existence by something outside it. The kalam argument thus confirms one element of Christianity, the doctrine of Creation.
The Teleological Argument
The teleological argument is the argument from the order in the world to the existence of a being that created it with a specific purpose in mind. The universe is a highly complex system. The scale of the universe alone is astounding, and the natural laws that govern it perplex scientists still after generations of study. It is also, however, a highly ordered system; it serves a purpose. The world provides exactly the right conditions for the development and sustenance of life, and life is a valuable thing. That this is so is remarkable; there are numerous ways in which the universe might have been different, and the vast majority of possible universes would not have supported life. To say that the universe is so ordered by chance is therefore unsatisfactory as an explanation of the appearance of design around us. It is far more plausible, and far more probable, that the universe is the way it is because it was created by God with life in mind.
The Moral Argument
The moral argument is the argument from the existence or nature of morality to the existence of God. Two forms of moral argument are distinguished: formal and perfectionist.
The formal moral argument takes the form of morality to imply that it has a divine origin: morality consists of an ultimately authoritative set of commands; where can these commands have come from but a commander that has ultimate authority?
The perfectionist moral argument sets up a problem: how can it be that morality requires perfection of us, then morality cannot require of us more than we can give, but that we cannot be perfect? The only way to resolve this paradox, the argument suggests, is to posit the existence of God.
The Argument from Religious Experience
The argument from religious experience is the argument that personal religious experiences can prove God’s existence to those that have them. One can only perceive that which exists, and so God must exist because there are those that have experienced him. While religious experiences themselves can only constitute direct evidence of God’s existence for those fortunate enough to have them, the fact that there are many people who testify to having had such experiences constitutes indirect evidence of God’s existence even to those who have not had such experiences themselves.
The Argument from Miracles
The argument from miracles is the argument that the occurrence of miracles demonstrates both the existence of God and the truth of Christianity. If the Bible is to be believed, then Jesus’ ministry was accompanied by frequent miraculous signs that his claims and his teachings were endorsed by God the Father. His resurrection from the dead was, of course, the greatest of these, and is still taken by many today to be a solid foundation for their faith. Miracles typically involve the suspension of the natural operation of the universe as some supernatural event occurs. That can only happen, of course, given the existence of some supernatural being.
Arguments for Agnosticism
Agnosticism is the view that knowledge of whether or not God exists is unattainable, that we cannot be justified in believing either that God does exist or that he does not.
There are two approaches to arguing for this view: first, it can be argued that knowledge of God’s existence is unattainable because no evidence could ever justify religious belief, and second, it can be argued that knowledge of God’s existence is unattainable because evidence of God’s existence is unattainable. One argument of each kind is considered here.
The Argument from Uncertainty
The argument from uncertainty takes the fact that we cannot achieve certainty as to whether God exists as justification for agnosticism. Whatever evidence there is for theism and for atheism is fallible, the argument suggests, and therefore ought to be rejected. Of course, we accept fallible evidence as sufficient justification for many of our beliefs, so this argument will only be persuasive if there is some reason to require better evidence when answering religious questions than we require in these other cases. One possible reason for so doing is the importance of being right concerning the existence of God.
The Argument from Incomprehensibility
An alternative approach to arguing for agnosticism is the argument from incomprehensibility. Theists have often been content to say that we are unable to comprehend God, that his being transcends our mundane experiences and that our concepts, which are derived from such experiences, cannot be used to describe him. If true, then this might be thought to count in favour of agnosticism; if we cannot comprehend God, then how can we reason with any confidence concerning his existence?
Arguments for Atheism
Though the history of the philosophy of religion has been dominated by attempts to prove the existence of God, there also exist a number of arguments that seek to disprove theism. These range from a priori arguments that the concept of God is logically incoherent, to a posteriori arguments that the world is not the way that it would be if God existed. The atheistic proofs section surveys these arguments for atheism.
Arguments for Atheism
Within the Arguments for Atheism section, the arguments are arranged under the following headings: The Presumption of Atheism, The Problem of Evil, Problems with Omnipotence (including the paradox of the stone), Problems with Omniscience, Immortality, Heaven and Hell , Petitionary Prayer, The Argument from Autonomy, The Psychogenesis of Religion, and Religion and Memetics.
The Presumption of Atheism
Atheists often suggest that theirs is the default position, that there is a presumption of atheism. This places the burden of proof on the theist; if the theist is unable to make a persuasive case for the existence of God, then the atheist is justified in his atheism. The case for the presumption of atheism may be made in two ways, one resulting in a presumption of weak atheism, and the other in a presumption of strong atheism.
The Problem of Evil
The problem of evil is the problem of reconciling the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent God with the existence of a world full of evil and suffering. If God is omniscient then he knows how to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering. If God is omnipotent then he is able to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering. If God is benevolent then he wants to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering. But if God knows how to, is able to and wants to bring it about that there is neither evil nor suffering, then why does he not do so? The simplest answer is that God does not do so because he does not exist. This is by far the most popular argument for atheism.
Problems With Divine Omnipotence
The doctrine of divine omnipotence is the doctrine that God is all-powerful. It is sometimes argued, however, that the concept of omnipotence is paradoxical, logically incoherent, and so that it is logically impossible that there be any being that is omnipotent. This position, if it can be sustained, precludes the existence of God.
Problems with Divine Omniscience
The doctrine of divine omniscience is the doctrine that God is all-knowing. The doctrine of divine omniscience, though, faces several philosophical objections; there are a number of arguments in the philosophy of religion that purport to demonstrate that God cannot possibly know everything. These include arguments that the doctrine of divine omniscience is logically incoherent, that it is inconsistent with the further Christian doctrine of divine impeccability (i.e. the doctrine that God cannot sin), and that it is refuted by the fact of human freedom. If any of these arguments is successful, then there can be no omniscient God.
Problems with Immortality
Even if we can make sense of the justice of heaven and hell, there remains a further problem: immortality. Death, by definition, involves the destruction of a person; if a person is not destroyed by death then they did not die. Once destroyed, though, it is unclear whether a person can be recreated. It is possible, no doubt, for there to be a subsequent person, like to them in every respect, but there is no reason to think that that will be the very same person that died, rather than merely a replica of them.
Problems with Divine Justice
The doctrine of divine justice is also subject to criticism. First of all, it appears to conflict with the idea that God is forgiving. A just God sees that each person gets what he or she deserves; a forgiving God sees that some people’s sins go unpunished. Second, the Christian view of heaven and hell appear in many ways to be unjust. Hell, for instance, appears to inflict an infinitely great punishment upon those who are sent there. How, though, can any finite sin deserve infinite punishment? Just punishments and rewards are proportionate to the badness or goodness of the person that deserves them. Heaven and hell though, are all or nothing. They therefore cannot be just.
Petitionary Prayer
A further doctrinal problem with Christianity concerns petitionary prayer, prayer in which we request (petition) that God do something for us. God’s omniscience implies that he will already have taken all of the information about our needs and desires into account when deciding what to do. His benevolence implies that he will act in our best interests unless there is a good reason not to (and if there is such a reason, our prayers will not remove it). Prayer, then, should never change God’s mind; petitionary prayer shouldn’t ever work.
The Argument from Autonomy
The argument from autonomy is the argument that the existence of morally autonomous agents is inconsistent with the existence of God, and so that the fact that morally autonomous agents do exist disproves the existence of God. God, if he exists, is worthy of worship. If a being is truly worthy of worship, though, then he is entitled to our unconditional obedience. Moral agents, however, cannot be required to give unconditional obedience to any agent. Moral agency requires autonomy, and so the idea of a moral duty to give up one’s autonomy is incoherent; in giving up one’s autonomy one would cease to be a moral agent so would cease to have moral duties at all. We cannot, therefore, have a duty of unconditional obedience to any agent, and there therefore cannot be any agent that worthy of worship. There can therefore be no God.
The Psychogenesis of Religion
The psychology of religion seeks to explain how patterns of thought in the human mind give rise to religious belief, to give a naturalistic account of religion based on human psychology. Psychology is thus used to explain away religious belief. The most influential critics of religion to have used this approach are Ludwig Feuerbach and Sigmund Freud.
Religion and Memetics
A final critique of religion comes from the field of memetics, and the suggestion that there is a God meme. Memetics seeks to apply the theory of evolution not to biological organisms but to ideas. Ideas, like animals, replicate themselves and compete for survival. The same process of natural selection that ensures that only the fittest animals survive will therefore also ensure that only the fittest ideas survive. Fitness of ideas, though, need not be a guide to truth; fitness is simply the ability to survive and reproduce. If the memetic critique of religion is right, then the success of religion can be fully explained by its preference of faith to reason, and its emphasis on evangelism.
well done if you managed to read it all. so whats peoples arguments on this.
04-05-2008, 09:53 AM
#2
PassionFord Post Whore!!
some top scientists have said our DNA structure and amongst other things seemed to have been like as if it was designed..
designed by who?
designed by who?
04-05-2008, 09:56 AM
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Shizzle My Nizzle
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A final critique of religion comes from the field of memetics, and the suggestion that there is a God meme. Memetics seeks to apply the theory of evolution not to biological organisms but to ideas. Ideas, like animals, replicate themselves and compete for survival. The same process of natural selection that ensures that only the fittest animals survive will therefore also ensure that only the fittest ideas survive. Fitness of ideas, though, need not be a guide to truth; fitness is simply the ability to survive and reproduce. If the memetic critique of religion is right, then the success of religion can be fully explained by its preference of faith to reason, and its emphasis on evangelism.
evolution!?
04-05-2008, 10:01 AM
#5
PassionFord Post Whore!!
if we evolved from monkeys how comes monkeys exist lol i though evolution meant an evolved version of the previous with the previous not existing any more?
04-05-2008, 10:16 AM
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lol. yeh it is a bit heavy. im waiting for the stupid replies to follow, im sure there will be many.
as for ur question, i dont think so, egyptians were more of a proper religion, like our native pagan religion. the worshiped the earth and material things. dont quote me but i think egyptians had many gods, such as the sun, and wind. ie their version of early science, rather than a blind faith in an "invisible god" so i dont think christianity was "ripped".
its like jesus, if he did exist he was probably just a really good doctor, and to market his business he claimed he was holy. and as for mary, up the duff with out poping her cherry...yeehhah more like she was playing away while jacob was hard at work. thats my opinion anyway
im more intrested in why people believe in a god or want to believe in a god. in this day and age.
i mean ok 1000 years ago even 200 years ago. the idea of a superior being. whther that god, allah, budda or what ever. it was the only way to justify and explain some things.
but in todays age of space technology, electronics, and medical science, i just fail to see why people are religious and believe were here because of god.
as said i reel its more of a social thing. an examply how many young boys do you see in all the football gear and they support the same team as their hard core dad. i thing poeple are just brought into it and dont know anybetter maby?
Last edited by Lee Ivatt; 04-05-2008 at 10:29 AM.
04-05-2008, 10:24 AM
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well its not as black and white as that, as well as a evolving it has as much to do with geographical and climatic circumstance.
ok as a rough example
monkeys in india.
half of them stay there half gradually over hundreds of years move north
the ones that stay put are fairly adapted to the climate and do not change much.
the ones that moved notrh would have have to adapt/evolve to the temperatures/climate and geographical situations, such as what they can find to eat, the terrain, eg ones with longer arms may cope better etc.
half of there could stay here and the half that move even further on again change differently . etc etc etc.
same with like birds. africa you have a ostrige. in england you have a owl!! both from the bird family, but evolved differently
not a very scientific explanation, but u should get the idea
Last edited by Lee Ivatt; 04-05-2008 at 10:25 AM.
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04-05-2008, 10:37 AM
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My flatmates are MEGA christain and I am a non believer. We have had massive discussions over this. The one miracle which will escape me is that there is existance,energy, anything. To this they say that god is responsible. 2 of them believe the book of fibs because they are nuts but the other almost trained to be a priest and makes the most sense with his talk on feelings.
I go down the evolution route etc etc, the book is a moral template, much like a government etc so I definately do not believe in that etc, but the one big miracle, thats a good un.
It's tough to argue. So you first have to say - what is god?
I go down the evolution route etc etc, the book is a moral template, much like a government etc so I definately do not believe in that etc, but the one big miracle, thats a good un.
It's tough to argue. So you first have to say - what is god?
04-05-2008, 10:39 AM
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Religion is the last refuge of the weakminded, and only invented as a means of controling the masses.. i've seen first hand the damage religion causes to peoples heads and lives. its the thing i hate most about the world..
where was your god when that monster in austria was raping his daughter and fathering the kids.? please, i'd love to here your answer to that..
where was your god when that monster in austria was raping his daughter and fathering the kids.? please, i'd love to here your answer to that..
Last edited by philram; 04-05-2008 at 10:42 AM.
04-05-2008, 10:45 AM
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I consider myself a Christain. I stand for the beliefs of the christain religion, rarely visit church and never pray to "god" etc...but i think having some faith is good for everyone at times.
Its the extremists of each different belief that cause the problems. Religion is only a problem because some mongs can't understand that other people believe something different.
Its the extremists of each different belief that cause the problems. Religion is only a problem because some mongs can't understand that other people believe something different.
Last edited by Coldo; 04-05-2008 at 10:47 AM.
04-05-2008, 10:47 AM
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Really interesting read 
I was brought up Catholic and went to a school for boys run by priests [and no, I was never molested]. I have specific beliefs but not that I'd want to discuss on here particularly.
The reason I'm replying though is that I remember asking my R.E teacher [I was very lucky at school to have one of the few non-priests teaching me R.E] about the existence of the devil.
If you believe in god, you have to also believe in the devil. If you believe the teachings, then the devil is a fallen angel who is the total opposite of god.
One runs heaven, one runs hell and by all accounts they don't get on. But God created everything blah blah so the devil is there, apparently, due to man's free will.
Gods teachings through scriptures etc. promote everyone being excellent to one another [like Bill and Ted also said, but god has a beard]. You go to heaven if you're good or repent your worldly sins and are rewarded for all eternity.
The devil is the bringer of temptation. He wants you to be bad and do unawesome things to each other. He thrives on evil. You go to Hell if you're bad and don't repent and are punished for all eternity.
That's where I always get confused with the whole idea??
The devil, who WANTS you to spread the evil around like all consuming soft cheese, then punishes you when you die? I've never studied demonology but I'm pretty sure old Lucifer would be chuffed to welcome some more black sheep into his fold? Maybe even reward them a little bit for doing as he wanted?
But, as a Christian, I am supposed to believe that the Devil is basically God's bitch.
I don't remember the answer my R.E teacher gave me. But I do remember his name was Mr Gay but strangely, we never gave him any shit for that!
I was brought up Catholic and went to a school for boys run by priests [and no, I was never molested]. I have specific beliefs but not that I'd want to discuss on here particularly.
The reason I'm replying though is that I remember asking my R.E teacher [I was very lucky at school to have one of the few non-priests teaching me R.E] about the existence of the devil.
If you believe in god, you have to also believe in the devil. If you believe the teachings, then the devil is a fallen angel who is the total opposite of god.
One runs heaven, one runs hell and by all accounts they don't get on. But God created everything blah blah so the devil is there, apparently, due to man's free will.
Gods teachings through scriptures etc. promote everyone being excellent to one another [like Bill and Ted also said, but god has a beard]. You go to heaven if you're good or repent your worldly sins and are rewarded for all eternity.
The devil is the bringer of temptation. He wants you to be bad and do unawesome things to each other. He thrives on evil. You go to Hell if you're bad and don't repent and are punished for all eternity.
That's where I always get confused with the whole idea??
The devil, who WANTS you to spread the evil around like all consuming soft cheese, then punishes you when you die? I've never studied demonology but I'm pretty sure old Lucifer would be chuffed to welcome some more black sheep into his fold? Maybe even reward them a little bit for doing as he wanted?
But, as a Christian, I am supposed to believe that the Devil is basically God's bitch.
I don't remember the answer my R.E teacher gave me. But I do remember his name was Mr Gay but strangely, we never gave him any shit for that!
Last edited by Paddy; 04-05-2008 at 10:49 AM.
04-05-2008, 10:51 AM
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However, explain cancer/fatal deseases in Children. Thats not due to anything other than pot luck unless the parents were in some way culpable. Smoking when pregnant or similar. And thats the reason i don't believe in God or that theres an afterlife or anything.
All we have is right now. And in 10,000 years no one will give a shit about you or your life or your cossie going 200mph+ (or even that some Austrian did some seriously dody things!) so just enjoy it while you can and fuck every one over that you can.
You dont have to do the last bit btw
04-05-2008, 10:57 AM
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Thats the problem for me, I believe the same as philram and Gaz s1. I dont believe in scriptures etc as they are man made which can be proven. I think religion has been used for control, some good some bad same as established governments and legal systems influence your morals. There will always be difference within humanity and with that problems.
But then you have the true miracle of existance. The concept of nothing or existance, now that is a toughy.
There is a simple answer to it, go out and enjoy the miracle.
(says he sitting in studying for exams lol)
But then you have the true miracle of existance. The concept of nothing or existance, now that is a toughy.
There is a simple answer to it, go out and enjoy the miracle.
(says he sitting in studying for exams lol)
Last edited by dumped; 04-05-2008 at 11:16 AM.
04-05-2008, 10:57 AM
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[quote=philram;3271781]Religion is the last refuge of the weakminded, and only invented as a means of controling the masses.. i've seen first hand the damage religion causes to peoples heads and lives. its the thing i hate most about the world..
quote]
couldnt agree more
My flatmates are MEGA christain and I am a non believer. We have had massive discussions over this. The one miracle which will escape me is that there is existance,energy, anything. To this they say that god is responsible. 2 of them believe the book of fibs because they are nuts but the other almost trained to be a priest and makes the most sense with his talk on feelings.
I go down the evolution route etc etc, the book is a moral template, much like a government etc so I definately do not believe in that etc, but the one big miracle, thats a good un.
It's tough to argue. So you first have to say - what is god?
I go down the evolution route etc etc, the book is a moral template, much like a government etc so I definately do not believe in that etc, but the one big miracle, thats a good un.
It's tough to argue. So you first have to say - what is god?
In essence, God as Christianity understands him cannot exist so long as the following four statements about God are true:
- Evil exists.
- God is omnipotent.
- God is omniscient.
- God is benevolent.
Evil Exists
Over the last year, people in the United States, and even likely around the world, have been wrestling with the question “What is evil?” I won’t pretend to try and answer that question here. Instead, I propose the following definition of evil, taken from the Second College Edition of the American Heritage Dictionary: ‘something that causes harm, misfortune, or destruction, something that is morally bad or wrong, something that is a cause or source of suffering, injury, or destruction.’
According to this definition, every time someone steals, it’s evil. Every time someone dies in an accident, or even dies at all, it’s evil. Every time Israel destroys the home of a suicide bomber’s home, it’s just as evil as blowing yourself up to take some of your perceived enemies with you. All of these things cause misfortune, harm, destruction, suffering, and injury, so according to the above definition they are all evil. Since these things are all part of normal daily life, evil must exist.
God is Omnipotent
The Christian God is believed to have created the universe, either through the literal manner described in Genesis, or through a more “intelligent design” theory of “guided evolution” after the initial creative burst of energy. God is described in the Bible as destroying the entire world except for Noah, his family, and the animals on the Ark. God destroys the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, rains plague down upon Egypt and slaughters all the first-born males. These actions are hardly the activities of someone who has limits to his power, and thus God meets the definition of omnipotent as “all-powerful.”
Ultimately, this means that God has absolute power, and is therefore absolutely responsible for all things that happen, since he either causes them personally or could stop them and chooses not to. Of course, this assumes that God is aware of what’s happening, or that he cares.
God is Omniscient
The all-seeing, all-knowing God hears all of our prayers, knows all of our sins. He sees us every moment of our lives, knows what we see, feel, and think. How else could God know whether we’re being good Christians or sinners, either through our thoughts or our deeds?
Therefore, God knows all that happens everywhere in the universe, good and bad. He senses when we take our children in our arms for a hug, just as he knows when a mortar shell is about to destroy the house and lives of an unsuspecting family. Ultimately, this means God could effect change in the universe, for good or ill, assuming of course that he has the means to change things in the universe, or that he wants to.
God is Benevolent The God of Christianity loves us all. He sent his own son to die for us, so we may be saved and know the kingdom of heaven. He has allowed us to choose our lives because he knows that a life of servitude is not truly a life at all. He carries us in his arms, metaphorically, when we most need support, and he comforts us when we most need a shoulder to cry on. If these statements are correct, and I have heard them and hundreds like them in Methodist, Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Calvinist, and at least two different born-again Christian churches, then God must be truly benevolent.
Since God cares so deeply for us, he must be acting in our best interests at all times. But this assumes that God has the power to protect us, and that God knows when something evil is going to happen to us.
04-05-2008, 11:12 AM
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Thats the problem for me, I believe the same as philram and Gaz s1. I dont believe in scriptures etc as they are man made and can be proven. I think religion has been used for control, some good some bad same as established governments and legal systems influence your morals. There will always be difference within humanity and with that problems.
But then you have the true miracle of existance. The concept of nothing or existance, now that is a toughy.
There is a simple answer to it, go out and enjoy the miracle. (says he sitting in studying for exams lol)
But then you have the true miracle of existance. The concept of nothing or existance, now that is a toughy.
There is a simple answer to it, go out and enjoy the miracle.
(says he sitting in studying for exams lol)Metaphysics the first causes and the principles of things.
and
Epistemology- the nature and scope of knowledge, and whether knowledge is possible.
after a year on this writing 10,000 word essays, "how do we know were not just a brain in a tank". theres basically two answers to choose from
yes we probably are just in a tank- think loosley the film Matrix
or you can believe along the theories of stephen hawkings, using quantam physics. (althoug correct me if in wrong) hawking believes in god, cos its the only answer he has to "it all" at this moment in time
so basically we DO exist in one form or another so just enjoy it!!
04-05-2008, 11:56 AM
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religon is a load of old cobblers from the days when ppl burnet women cos they were witches
whats real is what you see im very black and white, oh by the way when we die its lights out no after life
whats real is what you see im very black and white, oh by the way when we die its lights out no after life
04-05-2008, 12:07 PM
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All religions have too much in common for my liking, a lot of the stuff written or passed down through time sound the same as someone else's religion but in a different language, most of it is based around worshiping the sun not an actual god, IE the SUN of god rather than the SON of god.
tis is all bull shit invented to keep the masses in line through fear, it only worked back in the dark ages because anybody who dare to speak out against it were killed without question, its only since we've become a bit more civilised that people with common sense can actually see through all the bull shit.
tis is all bull shit invented to keep the masses in line through fear, it only worked back in the dark ages because anybody who dare to speak out against it were killed without question, its only since we've become a bit more civilised that people with common sense can actually see through all the bull shit.
04-05-2008, 12:16 PM
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Thats your opinion, someone who is religious has a different opinion... who's right?
A religion is a belief in something, its essentially like saying "by the way, white comps on a white cossie look best" maybe you believe they do, someone will believe differently.
(not saying i agree or disagree with your statement, just pointing out the way religion works)
A religion is a belief in something, its essentially like saying "by the way, white comps on a white cossie look best" maybe you believe they do, someone will believe differently.
(not saying i agree or disagree with your statement, just pointing out the way religion works)
Last edited by Coldo; 04-05-2008 at 12:18 PM.
04-05-2008, 01:05 PM
#23
I'll stand up and be counted as a Christian, I believe the Bible is Gods word and I believe in a risen Christ.
I can see the view point that Religion causes wars troubles etc. But then where there is a difference in opinion & people are passionate about whats important & what they believe in, then conflict is bound to occur sooner or later.
This country was once known as a Chistian nation however with the Christian identity now seemingly lost along with the Great in Britain, I do wonder where people now draw their beliefs and guide to living successfully from?
Nowhere?
Make it up as they go along?
If any of the above are correct in some instances, then is it any wonder that the country and society in general is in the state its in.
I can see the view point that Religion causes wars troubles etc. But then where there is a difference in opinion & people are passionate about whats important & what they believe in, then conflict is bound to occur sooner or later.
This country was once known as a Chistian nation however with the Christian identity now seemingly lost along with the Great in Britain, I do wonder where people now draw their beliefs and guide to living successfully from?
Nowhere?
Make it up as they go along?
If any of the above are correct in some instances, then is it any wonder that the country and society in general is in the state its in.
04-05-2008, 01:13 PM
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not going to read it all as theres too much
but i dont belive in religion at all, like mentiond above by philram its all about control, being a king etc..
It give people hope in a afterlife and all that bollocks, as far as im consernd theres no hard proof that these "gods" existed.. yeh theres books but they could have been wrote over the years with stories getting twisted etc
the only thing that made me a bit faitful in religion was when that indian kid was bord with 2arms and 2 legs like that indian god.. that was a bit of a coincidence but who knows?
religion is like the royal family imo they shouldnt be alout to control people like that its all bull imo
but i dont belive in religion at all, like mentiond above by philram its all about control, being a king etc..
It give people hope in a afterlife and all that bollocks, as far as im consernd theres no hard proof that these "gods" existed.. yeh theres books but they could have been wrote over the years with stories getting twisted etc
the only thing that made me a bit faitful in religion was when that indian kid was bord with 2arms and 2 legs like that indian god.. that was a bit of a coincidence but who knows?
religion is like the royal family imo they shouldnt be alout to control people like that its all bull imo
04-05-2008, 01:13 PM
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im a massive athiest, i dont understand how some religions can mean to kill someone is a good thing 
In my eyes, the bible is a story made up over the years when it was passed down.
All it causes is problems. I didnt mean to offend anyone with this.
In my eyes, the bible is a story made up over the years when it was passed down.
All it causes is problems. I didnt mean to offend anyone with this.
04-05-2008, 01:20 PM
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I'll stand up and be counted as a Christian, I believe the Bible is Gods word and I believe in a risen Christ.
I can see the view point that Religion causes wars troubles etc. But then where there is a difference in opinion & people are passionate about whats important & what they believe in, then conflict is bound to occur sooner or later.
This country was once known as a Chistian nation however with the Christian identity now seemingly lost along with the Great in Britain, I do wonder where people now draw their beliefs and guide to living successfully from?
Nowhere?
Make it up as they go along?
If any of the above are correct in some instances, then is it any wonder that the country and society in general is in the state its in.
I can see the view point that Religion causes wars troubles etc. But then where there is a difference in opinion & people are passionate about whats important & what they believe in, then conflict is bound to occur sooner or later.
This country was once known as a Chistian nation however with the Christian identity now seemingly lost along with the Great in Britain, I do wonder where people now draw their beliefs and guide to living successfully from?
Nowhere?
Make it up as they go along?
If any of the above are correct in some instances, then is it any wonder that the country and society in general is in the state its in.
I am a christian, I am not weak minded, and certainly not crazy, god is there for everyone who wants to seek him, if you beleive in god or not, if EVERYONE follow the basic rules and principles that the bible sets then the world WOULD be a much better place,
I have seen and felt god, i was in hospital and going to die, and a prayed, never bought up with religion etc, but i prayed as it was my only last chance, and guess what, i got better and, the docotors where baffled,
weather people want to beleive that is upto them, i never try and impose my faith on anyone, if ever i am asked, i say god is there if you truley seek him, the problem is in todays socity, people are to close minded and also people trust in science too much.
04-05-2008, 01:54 PM
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agree with you,
I am a christian, I am not weak minded, and certainly not crazy, god is there for everyone who wants to seek him, if you beleive in god or not, if EVERYONE follow the basic rules and principles that the bible sets then the world WOULD be a much better place,
I have seen and felt god, i was in hospital and going to die, and a prayed, never bought up with religion etc, but i prayed as it was my only last chance, and guess what, i got better and, the docotors where baffled,
weather people want to beleive that is upto them, i never try and impose my faith on anyone, if ever i am asked, i say god is there if you truley seek him, the problem is in todays socity, people are to close minded and also people trust in science too much.
I am a christian, I am not weak minded, and certainly not crazy, god is there for everyone who wants to seek him, if you beleive in god or not, if EVERYONE follow the basic rules and principles that the bible sets then the world WOULD be a much better place,
I have seen and felt god, i was in hospital and going to die, and a prayed, never bought up with religion etc, but i prayed as it was my only last chance, and guess what, i got better and, the docotors where baffled,
weather people want to beleive that is upto them, i never try and impose my faith on anyone, if ever i am asked, i say god is there if you truley seek him, the problem is in todays socity, people are to close minded and also people trust in science too much.
rather than an actual real god actually healing you?
I'll stand up and be counted as a Christian, I believe the Bible is Gods word and I believe in a risen Christ.
I can see the view point that Religion causes wars troubles etc. But then where there is a difference in opinion & people are passionate about whats important & what they believe in, then conflict is bound to occur sooner or later.
This country was once known as a Chistian nation however with the Christian identity now seemingly lost along with the Great in Britain, I do wonder where people now draw their beliefs and guide to living successfully from?
Nowhere?
Make it up as they go along?
If any of the above are correct in some instances, then is it any wonder that the country and society in general is in the state its in.
I can see the view point that Religion causes wars troubles etc. But then where there is a difference in opinion & people are passionate about whats important & what they believe in, then conflict is bound to occur sooner or later.
This country was once known as a Chistian nation however with the Christian identity now seemingly lost along with the Great in Britain, I do wonder where people now draw their beliefs and guide to living successfully from?
Nowhere?
Make it up as they go along?
If any of the above are correct in some instances, then is it any wonder that the country and society in general is in the state its in.
but also if you want to look deeper this country was originally a pagan/ wicka religion. it was the romans who bought over catholism, and "ruined" the country back then. christianity of the C of E was only invented because henry 7th wanted a divorce!
Last edited by Lee Ivatt; 04-05-2008 at 01:56 PM.
04-05-2008, 02:40 PM
#30
My take on religion:
The bible was written in order to control people. People rely on it far too much in their life in order to overcome grief or get round problems they dont want to face. Turn to the bible and god and then you have the strength to live your day to day life. In reality, they can live their life without turning to god and the bible, they just want to have the beleif that someone or something up there is helping them. I do actually feel sorry for people that dedicate their life to god. Does anyone have any evidence that this dedication has helped them?
Religion has caused many wars and will continue to do so. IF God existed then we would all pray to one god, not different ones for Christians, Sikhs, Muslims etc. There would be one religion and one set of rules within that religion.
The old age answer of "God gave us free will," which silences the old age question : "If there was a god why does he let such bad things happen" is imo the biggest evidence of people too eager to beleive at any cost, without ANY facts that God or the religion they belong to exisitng. Just as ive got no evidence that it doesnt exist. Science for me is the answer and stands up to much more scrutiny than religion.
The bible was written in order to control people. People rely on it far too much in their life in order to overcome grief or get round problems they dont want to face. Turn to the bible and god and then you have the strength to live your day to day life. In reality, they can live their life without turning to god and the bible, they just want to have the beleif that someone or something up there is helping them. I do actually feel sorry for people that dedicate their life to god. Does anyone have any evidence that this dedication has helped them?
Religion has caused many wars and will continue to do so. IF God existed then we would all pray to one god, not different ones for Christians, Sikhs, Muslims etc. There would be one religion and one set of rules within that religion.
The old age answer of "God gave us free will," which silences the old age question : "If there was a god why does he let such bad things happen" is imo the biggest evidence of people too eager to beleive at any cost, without ANY facts that God or the religion they belong to exisitng. Just as ive got no evidence that it doesnt exist. Science for me is the answer and stands up to much more scrutiny than religion.
04-05-2008, 02:42 PM
#31
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I'll stand up and be counted as a Christian, I believe the Bible is Gods word and I believe in a risen Christ.
I can see the view point that Religion causes wars troubles etc. But then where there is a difference in opinion & people are passionate about whats important & what they believe in, then conflict is bound to occur sooner or later.
This country was once known as a Chistian nation however with the Christian identity now seemingly lost along with the Great in Britain, I do wonder where people now draw their beliefs and guide to living successfully from?
Nowhere?
Make it up as they go along?
If any of the above are correct in some instances, then is it any wonder that the country and society in general is in the state its in.
I can see the view point that Religion causes wars troubles etc. But then where there is a difference in opinion & people are passionate about whats important & what they believe in, then conflict is bound to occur sooner or later.
This country was once known as a Chistian nation however with the Christian identity now seemingly lost along with the Great in Britain, I do wonder where people now draw their beliefs and guide to living successfully from?
Nowhere?
Make it up as they go along?
If any of the above are correct in some instances, then is it any wonder that the country and society in general is in the state its in.
I honestly think its just something to cling on to, some sort of life line so that when your time comes there will be something after it and its not just "lights out"
I'd rather just take my chances and fend for myself thanks.
Out of interest Andy (and others) do you not believe in evolution? and when did the world begin? did we have dinosaurs or is it all made up by us non believers and science?
Last edited by Matt J; 04-05-2008 at 02:43 PM.
04-05-2008, 02:46 PM
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My take on religion:
The bible was written in order to control people. People rely on it far too much in their life in order to overcome grief or get round problems they dont want to face. Turn to the bible and god and then you have the strength to live your day to day life. In reality, they can live their life without turning to god and the bible, they just want to have the beleif that someone or something up there is helping them. I do actually feel sorry for people that dedicate their life to god. Does anyone have any evidence that this dedication has helped them?
Religion has caused many wars and will continue to do so. IF God existed then we would all pray to one god, not different ones for Christians, Sikhs, Muslims etc. There would be one religion and one set of rules within that religion.
The old age answer of "God gave us free will," which silences the old age question : "If there was a god why does he let such bad things happen" is imo the biggest evidence of people too eager to beleive at any cost, without ANY facts that God or the religion they belong to exisitng. Just as ive got no evidence that it doesnt exist. Science for me is the answer and stands up to much more scrutiny than religion.
The bible was written in order to control people. People rely on it far too much in their life in order to overcome grief or get round problems they dont want to face. Turn to the bible and god and then you have the strength to live your day to day life. In reality, they can live their life without turning to god and the bible, they just want to have the beleif that someone or something up there is helping them. I do actually feel sorry for people that dedicate their life to god. Does anyone have any evidence that this dedication has helped them?
Religion has caused many wars and will continue to do so. IF God existed then we would all pray to one god, not different ones for Christians, Sikhs, Muslims etc. There would be one religion and one set of rules within that religion.
The old age answer of "God gave us free will," which silences the old age question : "If there was a god why does he let such bad things happen" is imo the biggest evidence of people too eager to beleive at any cost, without ANY facts that God or the religion they belong to exisitng. Just as ive got no evidence that it doesnt exist. Science for me is the answer and stands up to much more scrutiny than religion.
)
04-05-2008, 02:48 PM
#34
You know you can take diet pills to help with that right?
Anyone seen the film Constantine? I like to think of the world, god, heaven + hell and all that as they liad it out in Constantine. Makes a lot more sense...
I was raised in a Christian environment (CofE) so naturally the religion thing has been soaked up. Personally I am not a practising religious beliver, ie I don't go to church, I don't pray, I don't go around doing good deeds, no sex before marriage all that bollocks, but I do understand and in some ways agree with the values and ideology behind Christian beliefs.
I look at religion more so as a way of life, dependant on your particular religion. It's all to do with values, and how you want to lead your life. And I can totally respect that. If an orthdox Jew want to lead his life differently to a Churhc Of England Christian, or a Catholic Christian, then thats fine by me. I respect your choice for your religion. What two things I don't understand is a) Jewish, CofE Christian, Catholic Christian - they all belive in the same god! The whole Father, Son and Holy Spirit mantra of Christianity. So why the different versions, with different values and ways of life? Why would a CofE Christian be able to eat pork, and an orthadox Jew can't? The answer is to do with the different values in their different religious beliefs, yet they all belive in the same God.
The second thing I don't understand, is how if you choose to live your life by following a religion, and choose to stay bound to those values and belief structures, which prodominantly are to make you happy and the world a better place, how comes so many wars and so much death comes of this ideological "perfect" belief system?
I personally belive there is a god, and subsequent opposite, and a fiar bit of that stuff. I also believe that man has the ability to choose his own destiny - make his own choices. I belive man is capable of being inherently evil, which is proved by some of the atrocities this world has seen, and that whilst a God might be able to perform miracles, he/it doesn't have total control over mankind and how it progreses. Basically I don't belive that by beliveing in a religion means we live in a "Matrix" world, where we are just pawns/droid/puppets living out our lives being controlled, or living out our lives to a script. We make our own desicions, good or bad. We make our own choises. Hence the reference at the beginning of my post to Constantine - which explains the existence of God and the Devil, and the existence of Human kind as being an experiment, a game if you will.
Strangely, the two films I have used in this post as examples have both been Keanu Reeves films (Constantine, The Matrix). So maybe Keanu Reeves is God? Or God personified? Food for thought!
Anyone seen the film Constantine? I like to think of the world, god, heaven + hell and all that as they liad it out in Constantine. Makes a lot more sense...
I was raised in a Christian environment (CofE) so naturally the religion thing has been soaked up. Personally I am not a practising religious beliver, ie I don't go to church, I don't pray, I don't go around doing good deeds, no sex before marriage all that bollocks, but I do understand and in some ways agree with the values and ideology behind Christian beliefs.
I look at religion more so as a way of life, dependant on your particular religion. It's all to do with values, and how you want to lead your life. And I can totally respect that. If an orthdox Jew want to lead his life differently to a Churhc Of England Christian, or a Catholic Christian, then thats fine by me. I respect your choice for your religion. What two things I don't understand is a) Jewish, CofE Christian, Catholic Christian - they all belive in the same god! The whole Father, Son and Holy Spirit mantra of Christianity. So why the different versions, with different values and ways of life? Why would a CofE Christian be able to eat pork, and an orthadox Jew can't? The answer is to do with the different values in their different religious beliefs, yet they all belive in the same God.
The second thing I don't understand, is how if you choose to live your life by following a religion, and choose to stay bound to those values and belief structures, which prodominantly are to make you happy and the world a better place, how comes so many wars and so much death comes of this ideological "perfect" belief system?
I personally belive there is a god, and subsequent opposite, and a fiar bit of that stuff. I also believe that man has the ability to choose his own destiny - make his own choices. I belive man is capable of being inherently evil, which is proved by some of the atrocities this world has seen, and that whilst a God might be able to perform miracles, he/it doesn't have total control over mankind and how it progreses. Basically I don't belive that by beliveing in a religion means we live in a "Matrix" world, where we are just pawns/droid/puppets living out our lives being controlled, or living out our lives to a script. We make our own desicions, good or bad. We make our own choises. Hence the reference at the beginning of my post to Constantine - which explains the existence of God and the Devil, and the existence of Human kind as being an experiment, a game if you will.
Strangely, the two films I have used in this post as examples have both been Keanu Reeves films (Constantine, The Matrix). So maybe Keanu Reeves is God? Or God personified? Food for thought!
04-05-2008, 02:58 PM
#35
Why do people need religion as a guide Andy? are we not capable of guiding our selves through life?
I honestly think its just something to cling on to, some sort of life line so that when your time comes there will be something after it and its not just "lights out"
I'd rather just take my chances and fend for myself thanks.
Out of interest Andy (and others) do you not believe in evolution? and when did the world begin? did we have dinosaurs or is it all made up by us non believers and science?
I honestly think its just something to cling on to, some sort of life line so that when your time comes there will be something after it and its not just "lights out"
I'd rather just take my chances and fend for myself thanks.
Out of interest Andy (and others) do you not believe in evolution? and when did the world begin? did we have dinosaurs or is it all made up by us non believers and science?
04-05-2008, 03:01 PM
#36
PassionFord Post Troll
What about Greek mythology? Why is it myth, and not "fact" like the bible?
Last edited by Graham S1; 04-05-2008 at 03:04 PM.
04-05-2008, 03:12 PM
#38
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My take on religion:
The bible was written in order to control people. People rely on it far too much in their life in order to overcome grief or get round problems they dont want to face. Turn to the bible and god and then you have the strength to live your day to day life. In reality, they can live their life without turning to god and the bible, they just want to have the beleif that someone or something up there is helping them. I do actually feel sorry for people that dedicate their life to god. Does anyone have any evidence that this dedication has helped them?
Religion has caused many wars and will continue to do so. IF God existed then we would all pray to one god, not different ones for Christians, Sikhs, Muslims etc. There would be one religion and one set of rules within that religion.
The old age answer of "God gave us free will," which silences the old age question : "If there was a god why does he let such bad things happen" is imo the biggest evidence of people too eager to beleive at any cost, without ANY facts that God or the religion they belong to exisitng. Just as ive got no evidence that it doesnt exist. Science for me is the answer and stands up to much more scrutiny than religion.
The bible was written in order to control people. People rely on it far too much in their life in order to overcome grief or get round problems they dont want to face. Turn to the bible and god and then you have the strength to live your day to day life. In reality, they can live their life without turning to god and the bible, they just want to have the beleif that someone or something up there is helping them. I do actually feel sorry for people that dedicate their life to god. Does anyone have any evidence that this dedication has helped them?
Religion has caused many wars and will continue to do so. IF God existed then we would all pray to one god, not different ones for Christians, Sikhs, Muslims etc. There would be one religion and one set of rules within that religion.
The old age answer of "God gave us free will," which silences the old age question : "If there was a god why does he let such bad things happen" is imo the biggest evidence of people too eager to beleive at any cost, without ANY facts that God or the religion they belong to exisitng. Just as ive got no evidence that it doesnt exist. Science for me is the answer and stands up to much more scrutiny than religion.
talks about god being omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent. yet as evil exists as well, the pure definition of what god is means he can not exist in reality!
04-05-2008, 03:15 PM
#40
PassionFord Post Whore!!
reading what the four statement's about god or you believe the statement's.
If the evil one is also watching somebody die without stepping in then god is assisting in evil so surely that mean's he is evil then baring that in mind then the devil isnt the opposite of god. So if he isnt the opposit of god then the argument of god crumble's as they cant be at the opposit of the spectrum to each other.
Probably make's on sense on here but does in my head
And i dont believe in god
If the evil one is also watching somebody die without stepping in then god is assisting in evil so surely that mean's he is evil then baring that in mind then the devil isnt the opposite of god. So if he isnt the opposit of god then the argument of god crumble's as they cant be at the opposit of the spectrum to each other.
Probably make's on sense on here but does in my head
And i dont believe in god