Garage19

I'm no expert but i should imagine to map ignition for off boost you would just hold a specific load/speed site and then advance/retard the ignition timing until you achieved the best torque reading?????

I should imagine that mapping ignition on high load sites is where the real skill/experience is needed???

Any tips stu? Do det cans make it possible or is it mostly down to experience?

nor_cossie

First This is probably one of the best topics here on this forum.

On some us ford forums they are tweeking the original eec iv ecu of the mustang, and I think they are fitting bigger injectors and even one odd supercharger. Is this a different ecu from whats in the late model Escort?

When your are mapping ignition of boost, are you then mapping for best torque?
I think you said sometime that adding ignition after best tourqe may result in less? Or something similar.

And a more basic question What is a det can? I think some kind of knock sensing equipment, but not sure.
The KnockLink, or whatever the link knocksensor is named, is it any good??

Azrael

I can't just get to that if anybody can make my Escos nice 300-330HP with nice torque curve on EEC IV. Anyway I'm going to test chip for it by Stu soon and maybe that will be enough.

I wonder if it's mine or Stu's communication skills that make us unable to comunicate about that :-/ Probably just my poor english.

DazC

iTrader: (1)

Keep talking to him mate, you'll get there in the end. I think what he means is basically that due to the fact no one does any more than a basic stage 1 type conversion to the EEC system, he would have to spend a lot of time developing a new chip and have a car on hand to test it with. If you understand what I mean.

RWD_cossie_wil

iTrader: (9)

can a P8 ecu with a pectel 8 injector board be used to run 4x1000cc injectors? sounds daft I know but theres madness in the method

Azrael

But from what he says on this thread it seams he can actually Live Map EEC IV..... then I have no idea why I couldn't fit small GT series and do about 330HP from EEC IV. EVEn if MAF/MAP maxes out at the top end or fuel pressure would have to be slightly upped.

DazC

iTrader: (1)

Not too sure on that. He will have to explain the specifics behind that one.

Azrael

Anyway if Stu can live map EEC IV Escos that it would be better to have live mapped Stg1 then chipped Stg 1 probably?

DazC

iTrader: (1)

No...

We already know that an standard Marrelli L8 ECU will run 750cc injectors with brilliant emissions and drivability so standard Marrelli P8 will also control 750cc as the L8, will but to my knowledge 1000cc injectors has not been tried YET.

DazC

iTrader: (1)

It would probably be a better map on paper for the engine but whether you would notice a big enough difference over a standard stage 1 map could be debatable.

Azrael

Stg 1 on EEC IV Escos is quite distant from stock engine. Depending on tuner it's around 300HP and almost twice the stock boost! Stg 1 YBP Escos is by now means a slow car, here in Poland I haven't met faster on track or road yet exept for just one Scooby.


Anyway I schould probably just leave the engine alone for the time being, untill I have funds for complete rebuild + Autronic, IC, turbo, waterinjection and lots,lots of stuff.

DazC

iTrader: (1)

Sorry, what I meant was that you may not notice any difference between an ordinary stage 1 chipped car and one that is basically the same mechanically but which has been live mapped. I didn't mean to make it sound like a totally standard car compared to a stage 1 live mapped car!

Azrael

I know I know - I mean that if live mapping is possible, then even if we are limited by EEC IV sensors and actuators we can still make some improvements - fre exhaust and intake, head porting/polishing, the same with manifolds, uprated hybrid turbo with ported/polished insides, all this can be used to full extent if we live map it.

I know it's kind of stupid compered to the power one could get from old YBT with this sort of work but still it may be interesting option if e.g. I have to rebuild engine if future because of wear I could do those things as byproduct.

tonypastie

very good topic indeed just poping out to live map my frontera on my mates MOT rollers NOT REALLY massive respect to STU top post learn,t a fair bit cant see any other tunner doing this for FREE

DazC

iTrader: (1)

Obviously other improvements can be done to the engine itself but then you are straight back to the issue of the fueling from the standard injectors. I beleive that there is options though

Azrael

EEC IV Escos is working at relatively low fuel pressure so it can be adressed this way, but I bet there must be some bigger ones for EEC IV for some mustang or some other car.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Ok,
Pet and i have just spent some time fixing this "Last page missing" issue, hopefully this topic is now bug free.....

Sorry for any inconvenience, lets get back to the discussion

Garage19

Can we pick up the discussion on mapping ignition?

I think myself, JesseT and foreignRS would really appreciate some more info on this.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I will be answering all your questions just as soon as i have an hour to apply to them, i promise

Garage19

Thanks. Time is money......... and all that. So really appreciated.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Hi,
The standard airmass meter is also on its knees around 300bhp, not just the injectors We can increase the fuel pressure no problem and make a custom map to take us to the realistic 300area but i still would need to spend a good few hundred hours with the system to find the injector scalar maps and other associated maps such as cold running and air mass to make larger injectors work "properly" should we want to go any higher, and this doesnt get round the fact we are on a wing and a prayer with an air mass meter wide open, so would need to look also at fitting a bigger more capable unit. This then opens up a whole new can of worms as the airmass scaling within the control maps is totally bolloxed, leading to more R&D to get this lot working again... In Short, its arguable wether the few people willing to pay the price would offset the time and money required to make this workable. I far prefer the idea of plugging in a SECS ECU and the fooker just needs maping.

I hope that addressed your later comments too, but if not, please ask.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Hi,
Ive no idea. Im pretty sure i could get your std P8 hardware to do it... But no idea if your 8inj hardware will do it. Maybe give Harvey/Ahmed a shout

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Yes, but at part load you have the complication that some cars simply run terribly with too much advance and never begin to detonate or preignite. This is commonly a problem seen on many of the old 7.2:1 cossie maps ive seen taht run like a bad joke off boost. Someones just put the expected advance figures in and hoped for the best and recieved rather less..rolfol.

I use a fuel monitor that can display oxygen values as well, so i can map to teh point of oxygen content appearing in teh waste gas. This will indictae a missfire before i can feel one.

Other than running problems, we map to detonation and then back, but in all honesty, experience gives better results than det cans off load as a low comp motor will swallow up advance and just run crap, effecting driveability and emissions terribly.. thats a fact.

We also map with our G-Meter at times so we can measure constant G. This is a good way to gauge improvements in torque whilst mapping live.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Many thanks, im enjoying it too.


Hopefully this was covered in the last reply

A det can in its most basic form is a pair of ear defenders with some 5mm bore rubber tube connected, going out of teh window and then connected to some microbore copper tube thats bolted to teh engine.

Our system goes one step further:
Its a set of electronic headphones with 4 seperate microphones and a 4channel swicthbox so i can listen to different areas of teh engine if im in doubt as to what im hearing on one sensor.

You can see the sensors hooked up in this pic:


And the cans and switchbox are just visible on teh dash in this pic:


Knocklink etc are quite usefull once youve got them set for the engine its supposed to monitor, but ive found it next to useless for transferring from car to car, as its so hard to setup

PGT

great topic stu - keep it up

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Thanks Paul, sure beats arguing over petty things Looks like folk are slowly getting bored/running out of questions though....

leecavturbo

can you map any ecu then? inparticular motronic 2.7 for a cav turbo?

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Yes, no problem pal. Your Ecu number will begin 0261 203 on that vehicle and theres 18 seperate software variants fitted to the 2.0turbo engine in that era and all are fine for live mapping.

foreigneRS

hi stu

i had a lot of questions regarding ignition maps on the last page. i'll repeat them and break them up a bit to make it easier (although you have mostly answered some of them ).

leecavturbo

was gona buy autronic at the end of this month to go with my gt2540r garrett ? don't bother?

Azrael

Now I'm getting to understand whole thing.


I far prefer Plugging in S8 ECU but I can't see it becoming avalible for EEC IV cars in forseeable future and becoming tested and reliable unit :-(


Still I watch very closely effects my friend has hre with his T4/greys Escos and S8 ECU which a tuner here in Poland is trying to map for him. So far It runs very quickly but still have too little HP and has BIG trouble with cold starting. It was fist some hardware issue which was I hear adressed by SImon but now I think it's jus a problem of learning to map a thing.


By the way Stu how do you think -> if someone can map 600HP Supras and group A Escorts with Motec/GEMS can such a pesron map S8 ECU or some other exotic product like Pectel which is unknown here? I mean is tis skil very hardware dependent?

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Basic tools for mapping are:
Good Laptop with long battery life.

16bit Emulator with 35ns max data speed and at least 8mb internal memory. (To run 2x 4mb roms at once)

Battery backup system for emulator that is capable of storing the run map and feeding the ecu with this rom for 1hour solid to get you home should the laptop or emulator fail out in service.
(Remember, your ecu has no chip in it )

Wideband fuel monitor that ideally shows both Fuel AND Oxygen.
Its nice also to have both AFR and Lambda displayed.

Knock cans of some form, to enable you to hear engine noise from within the cockpit.

Accurate boost gauge for forced induction engines.

EGT monitoring is very usefull on Turbocharged cars.

G-Meter is usefull but not strictly a necessity.

A mobile phone to call RAC


Basically, you need to drive the car and trace log the most commonly used areas. Once youve ascertained what areas are most commonly accesed during normal running, you want to be optimising these for fuelling. The lambda input needs disabling one way or another to do this. Id rather not go into too much detail as to what mixtures we use for the various modes of engine operation as im risking giving away slightly too much there, remember, this is my living folks, but im happy to chat about general stuff.

As for spark, we need to be advancing to either peak torque, knock, or oxygen input, whatever comes first and then back to adetermined safe level back away from this peak. Again, i have my own feelings on whats safe to retard back to and its not for public consumption. Sorry

Next...

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Id still go Autronic/other aftermarket personally for a number or reasons:

1) Youve obviously invested heavily in hardware to support that turbo's potential airflow/horsepower and dont want to lose your investment due to a failure of an old ecu. (These units arent the most reliable as im sure you know already)

2) You would be well advised to utilise things such as EGT fuel control with that unit and a whole host of other great safety features that the aftermarket ecu will give you such as injector failure control.

3) The time spent diagnosing problems in teh future can be cut down massively with a decent aftermarket ecu.

Hope this helps.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Thats a question for Simon pal, and im sure he will be along soon


Well, the tuning paramaters dont really change, just the way in which each individual system administers the control. I dont expect your tuner will have any problems aftre a couple of hours familiarisation time.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Incidentally...
We did a Pectel T6 2000 topic that showed all teh configuration screens and counted around 800 adjustable maps and options.... may be of interest to folks who are interested in mapping...

https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=89902

foreigneRS

thanks a lot stu. i can understand your position about AFR's and ignition timing 'secrets', but it's very frustrating when you tease us by getting us to ask questions that you know you won't answer.

the practical basics of mapping are relatively simple (especially with aftermarket ecu's with user friendly gui's) but it's the details, that i suppose are only gained through experience, that make the difference.

Azrael

Foreigner RS - to learn to map properly one must probably explode a number of engines over the years to gaing experience. That's why I'm not very fond of doing any big HP here in Poland as basicallynoody had possiblity to blow up some Cosworth engines. Dunno if I am right but this kind of expensive experience may be invaluable.

Azrael

Hopefully I don't have a couple of thousand pounds on my account waint to be spend on Cossie engine tuning so I can wait for answers

If I win a lottery or something I will be looking for somebody in UK whom I can leave my car for few months and get itback with everything done from engine to missing clips in interior



I know they had a lot of problems with basic setting on S8 ECU to get engine runnning, and still there aresome problems with the way it operated ISCV and cold start.

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

That wasnt teh intention as that would be a total waste of both our time...

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

Azrael, The problems your "friend" is experiencing are down to
mapping and nothing else.
I have responded to all emails and questions from him and step by step
he is sorting out the problems with his map.


ECU's ARE complicated products and the S8 is much simplified when compared
with others but still require a level of skill, understanding and experience
when setting them up.


It is unfair of you to blame me for "others" inability to understand how to map
and configure an ecu or failure to understand how engines actually work.


If it was that easy Stu and other tuners would be out of a job.

At the end of the day, no matter who's ecu you use or no matter how much it
costs, it will ONLY be as good as the person tuning it and also how much
time and effort someone is prepared to put in to it.

Most people only think about the full load power mapping but there
are many other parameters needed for example cold start etc...

For your info, the S8 EEC4 plug and play version is actually nearly ready for sale.
It is not available yet due to it being tested in the real world at present
by a WELL KNOWN respected tuning company.
Once they and I am happy with its performance it will be sold - not until then.

It is a shame that not everyone understands the amount of work that actually goes
into a product like these in terms of development.
It is NOT a five minute job.