Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Does anyone know of any websites that document ring times, and specifically for me i guess, document Bmw E46 times.

Part of me wants to buy an M5, but a BIGGER part of me says keep the E46 325Ci and try to improve on my times as that will be a bigger challenge and teach me more than just having more power available.

What to do? Knowing people have pedalled standard cars around there far faster than me would probably make the decision for me.

Marc LJX

iTrader: (2)

I'm sure you know of this one

http://bridgetogantry.com/index.php?...id=4&Itemid=28

Have you had any trouble with E46 brakes on previous trips? i.e. warping?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Trying to push your car against other peoples times on the sort of busy days you normally go on, is a bad idea IMHO

B16JUS

i totally agree there are some people who have have we would call slow cars on the road but on there they are untouchable

as a e.g last year in the rs6 in a straight line i done them but come a few bends they were gone and i couldnt even get back on them

a pug 306 gti
a slk 200
old 525i

so the proof really is knowledge makes a good time

J

Marc LJX

iTrader: (2)

Very good point that
I get a passenger to time a lap very occasionally, and really dont take any extra chances or anything just because the clock is on... Its just nice to see your time improve in proportion to your knowledge of the track.

Last trip i didnt time any at all

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Good advice Chip and i am constantly aware of such things and NEVER push through traffic dangerously.

That said, I have now done about 90 laps without crashing or even any moments that would raise your heartbeat 10BPM from its normal spirited driving level, and all at busy times, so i think i am safe enough to carry on as i am and enjoy what i love doing best, driving the ring alone for hours at a time trying to improve on MY own personal time and beat nobody else.*



(* Famous last words admittedly )

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Stu, all true, but thats the TOTAL opposite of what your first post is saying!

Compare your times to your own times in similar traffic whilst putting safety first (ie what you are doing currently) and its a very safe hobby IMHO
But start trying to beat others on days with less traffic and potentially you set yourself an unobtainable target that you either give up trying to beat (i dont see you as someone who would enjoy "failure") or you take bigger and bigger risks trying to achieve it, and IME that can only have one outcome.

Porkie

iTrader: (1)

Get the M5 dude

Physio

Personally Stu, I think that you should go for an M5 as you've already done the ring in the E46 so it will be a new experience & you'll probably have a lot more fun with the extra horses under the bonnet

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

In that case you are missunderstanding my first post.
My post is saying that i dont know if i am near the current limit of my car, or my skill. If i know that hundreds of people have done say, 8:30s in an E46 with PW/ratio of 120bhp per tonne, then i know that the limitation was my current track knowledge and skill and i need to continue improving lines, apexing and braking points.

If its generally accepted that 9:21 is a good time in such a car, then maybe i would progress further and faster with better tools.

I want to develop my driving skills. Power is NOT where its at with me, its driving SKILL. Anyone with half reasonable driving skill can probably propel a very fast car around the ring in a better time than me due to teh fast sections it has over its near 15mile circuit but I would MUCH rather get a good time by being able to drive properly.

I drive fast cars all day every day. I dont need one to get a buzz as most people do. For me its a personal battle with only myself.

RichardPON

Stu - how come you've done so many laps of the Ring, but never really any UK trackdays?

Much to be enjoyed from a day out with the lads at Bedford, and plenty of opportunity to explore skills without Rainbird barriers to worry about!

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

No idea to be honest Rich. The UK really doesnt interest me from a driving point of view at all, but i can go to Germany and be a real bore. Sometimes people dont see me from morning till night. Nicole is hiring a car this year as she was sick of being carless for whole days while i was there, but people are told clearly that if they come with me, they will be sat on the ring or walking for the majority of our stay. I go to drive.



Here I am, sat at the ring on my fooking own awaiting it to open at 7am, in the rain and fog. Everyone else was in bed and quite rightly turned up around 12pm. I left when it closed at 7pm that night. I stopped only for lunch, fuel or tyre relief. (F1s NEVER again! )

Something mystical about the place that i just love, its almost like it draws me in. I cant explain it at all.

carlo

iTrader: (4)

Get the M5 stu

foreigneRS

i would say that 9:21 is nowhere near the limt of the car (but it depends on traffic). i would stick with what you know and concentrate more on learning the lines/car/driving technique.

too much power will of course immediately get you a quicker time, but to what end? no point imo, and could lead to trouble and definately expense

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Thanks, browsing it now!
No, the brakes, notably, were fabulous. Not a single problem ever!
(DS2500 F&R)

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Thanks Nick, these are my thoughts too. I am sure it has a low or 9 in it. (But may need schumaker in the seat)
Hey,, if your there in May maybe you could take me round in my own car. Wonder if it will scare me as much as our last crusade?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

The ring feels like much more of a challenge to me, its the fact that even after 100 or more laps (ie 20-30 hours driving it) you still dont REALLY know it fully, where as you know in detail exactly what every corner at castle coombe does within 15 minutes of getting out on the track.

I still enjoy uk track days, but its a totally different experience IMHO and I enjoy them for different reasons.

Id compare it to the difference between a quick one night stand, and a meaningful relationship, you cant have a meaningful relationship with donnington, it doesnt have enough depth and variation in its personality.

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

When you say that to someone who has never been, they edge quietly away from you and look at you funny . Say it to someone who has been, and you both go stary eyed and distant as you go to "that place in your mind" .

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Fook me, thats a great way to put it and having driven most UK tracks i think your right on the button!! Thats why i like the ring!!

Plus it has a wierd personality that the mileage, elevations and corners cant explain. Maybe its the deaths...

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Ah... that place.

RichardPON

LOL - good answers!

I understand the appeal of the place, but it's not exactly the best location to be learning new driving skills IMO.

Funny how people eulogise about the Ring, but don't go on about Spa for example, which has a very similar practical appeal.

Marc LJX

iTrader: (2)

Great, i'll take some spare pads just in case

It seems i will be there on the same weekend as you in May, we should be on the same ferry out of Hull as you lot...

We'll have to meet up and compare E46 laps Mines a derv though...

Chip

iTrader: (3)

The ring is 14+ miles long, with 100+ corners, no other track offers the unique challenge of "getting to know it" to quite the same extent.

It DOES offer the place to hone your driving skills as much as a UK track, but only once you are a thousand laps in IMHO, as by then you know it intimately and can push the car to its limits on each and every bend (with the exception of a few where there isnt enough visibility to do so).

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Brilliant, hook up for the convoy pal, all my plans are here, your more than welcome to join us all:
http://www.fordrsforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=815

Marc LJX

iTrader: (2)

I think thats because the ring is seen as the daddy, and at Spa you cant just arrive and drive like you can on a tourist day at the Nordschleife. You either book a full days track or you dont. You cant just turn up and do a lap!
Personally i would love to drive SPA after visiting last year, but i wouldnt like to spam my reliable car round there for a full day, and i would NOT (edit!) trust the reliability of my RS to get me there and back with a full trackday in the middle.

One day maybe

RichardPON

Really?

I would say the Ring is the one place where you don't drive at 10/10ths actually, much in the way that I always drive slightly restrained at Combe.

Still, what can I tell ya - I've never crashed at the ring

Chip

iTrader: (3)

There are plenty of corners at the ring where you have sufficient visibility to drive 10/10ths.

Some corners you cant, as you cant see if there is a car broken down round the other end of the bend (ie bergwerk) but others (adenau forst) you most certainly can.

The only downside is the runoff, so if you make a mistake, it is almost always a big accident not just a spin off across some grass.

Marc LJX

iTrader: (2)

Cheers, but we'll probably get down there ourselves, and i'll pop over and say hi in the carpark or something
Were taking 9 cars ourselves, so joining the two convoys together could get messy

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

No problem pal, maybe a beer on the boat too. If not, see you in Germany.

dojj

iTrader: (3)

done plenty of laps on thexbox but can't do better than 9.28 so i think i'll play some more before i try it for real

the m5 is twice the engine in the 325 so it's gong to be quicker yes, but don't make the mistake of it being that much quicker than you expect because it probably won't be

you'll only shave off a small portion of time compared to what you can do in the 325 so i'd probably get to the point where i was comfortable in that i couldn't do a faster time in the condition before making the step up to the M5

and even then, i'd fel the need to do a few track days in the M5 to find a feel for where the limits are before i ventured out to the ring

for the time being, console yourself with the fact that you are faser round than jeremy clarkson

Marc LJX

iTrader: (2)

Cool

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

I havent tried a lap in a Turbo diesel Jaguar so i dont even have that fact to console myself with. Im sure Jezza is actually quite a good driver despite all the flak he takes.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

With the amount of practice he gets, i fail to see how he can NOT be a good driver by now.

foreigneRS

i am sure that it has a sub 9 lap in it if a shonky old sapphire with 3 people in (2 of which weigh 100kg each) can manage one (with a missed gear change from 3rd down to 2nd instead of up to 4th half way around that bent the inlet valves on no.1 cylinder)

bmw suspension is far superior to sierra stuff as you know, and that is what is important on the 'ring. power just gets you up a couple of the hills, but you only have to look at some of the times from lightweight cars with decent suspension and modest power to see that.

don't think i will be there in May, as i may give it a miss this year in favour of something different (road trip in the swiss alps probably ). i do still own a share in a cossie that lives in germany though, so may well have to spank it around again. if i do at the same time that you are there, i will definately take you around again. this car is much more predictable than the estate was when you were a passenger in that so can be hustled around with much more confidence.

i would have liked to have taken my subaru there to see what t will do, but will probably sell it soon for something more practical while i am off work. before i do take it though, i have booked the 2nd feb. track day at bedford to learn the handling characteristics of it. i would suggest that you should do several track days in relative safety on uk circuits / airfields before pushing it much further on the 'ring. you want to know what it feels like approaching the limits. it's all too easy to suddenly come across something on the 'ring and have to back off or brake when you would normally be accelerating and if you don't know how it will react it could get a bit scary.

it's obvious that you are at the 'ring for your own enjoyment and i don't think that enjoyment would be enhanced by a faster car - quite the opposite in fact if it could potentially cost you more should anything go wrong

Stu @ M Developments

iTrader: (12)

Well if your there in May mate then that seats mine for under 9 mins pal. As is mine for you.

Hard to say and a tad chalk and cheese to compare it to a saff (depending on power) as while the chassis is of course night and Day better, the power to weight at 119bhp/tonne is pretty damn poor by any standard. Hills etc agree we need power for, but on the straights you find cars catching you and overtaking you and you counting to ten before you reach the corner they have just apexed. Time lost all over the place due to no power deficit in certain fast straightish sections where a cossie would gain easy time.

GARETH T

got an M5 yet?

there such good value for money now

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Why not an E46 M3? Similar handling characteristics to what you have now, but with just a bit more power .

RsDarren

iTrader: (1)

To me the more variables you change the harder it will be to master them? A new car will mean finding out it's limits again.

I would stick with what you've got Stu as you know the car, the track so it's only you who can improve?

That's my thoughts anyway

It's Czech Mate

I would be like you stu and learn my car inside out to wring the best possible time from it.

I had the best days of my driving life in my fiesta z-s, it was underpowered but i had so much fun trying to exploit everything it did have to offer.

Would you ever go 10/10ths in an M5?

BlueSmoke

I miss the ring, and i've only driven one lap

I am making it my personal mission to be there next year. No matter what. I'd give anything to return but after last time I know it's just not worth it without plenty of cash behind you as you don't have as good a time and you just become a burden on people

If you aren't bothered about the power Stu, is there really any good reason to change? You will fimd with the M5 that you still compare yourself to other drivers of the same car, and IMO it's going to be a lot more dangerous to do so. The faster the car, the more skill it takes to get the best times....

The very best drivers drive right on the edge of control, and that's a dangerous fucking game!