escort700bhp

??
just wondering if anybodies tried it and could give an insight if its worth looking at

Rex Kramer

iTrader: (1)

cooler just means denser don't it, so you get a little more fuel in?

rapidcossie

Yes mate that right....

we have monitored on the rollers.

Less than 1/4 tank and the power drops off my car as the fuel is heated

escort700bhp

so whats the best temp ?
below zero c ?

i know f1 teams run 10 below zero

would be interesting to test different fuels at diff temps

gym-rst

I have been at Audi now for the past 4 months and alot of the new 2.0 tdi cars run fuel cooling systems underneath in funky twisted pipes.

Charlie Chalk

iTrader: (1)

stick ice cubes in your petrol tank?

Rex Kramer

iTrader: (1)

only if its those little plastic re-usable ones

lukemakepeace

how could you actually do a DIY fuel cooling system?

Charlie Chalk

iTrader: (1)

Fit a cooler to the fuel lines at a guess...

rapidcossie

when the power drops off we need to add 20 liters to get the power back instantly...

Chip

iTrader: (3)

It makes a difference, but not a huge one, and even less so on a more basic spec of car.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

ps

In F1 a lot of the advantage is it takes less time to fill the tank, which isnt applicable to a road car of course!

rapidcossie

In my experience makes a massive difference...

For example when mapping my car on the rollers and working on the flat out running the car started with half a tank of fuel.

After about an hour we were at 450ish ATW and for no reason the power run after run gradually went back down to about 400ATW.

Everything looked OK so we decided to stop for lunch and a think.

During lunch I went and filled the 20 litre drum and the petrol staion and refilled the car as it sat on the rollers.

First run after lunch with NO adjustmenst it made 450 ATW again.

simon170

Rapid: I think Chip is saying it made a big diff on your car cos its a very high state of tune and that it wont mean as much on a normal car... I think lol

rapidcossie

50 brake is a pretty huge differnece to me..

Chip

iTrader: (3)

PMSL @ that test, the whole engine had half an hour to cool down, I think you may be over attributing that to the fuel

Thats not to say I dont believe it made a difference, in formula 1 they reckon it makes around .5% difference per 10 degrees of temp change so 3-4 bhp on a 800bhp car maybe, but not 50, no way on earth!
Something else changed on your car in that time!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Euan if you belive your results, would you like a little wager based on them?

I will come up, we will let a car sit for an hour, so its all cold, we will test it on the rollers with cold fuel, we will then let it sit for an hour so its all cold again, warm the fuel 20 degrees, and try it again.

If it makes anywhere near the 10% you beleive it will, i'll give you 500 quid, if it makes nearer to the 1% im predicting it will, you give me 500 quid.

I wont lose out massive either way, cause I will document it all and if you are right, I can publish the story in one of the mags I write for with detailed evidence

Turbocabbie

out of curiosity is there more to be gained from cooling the intake charge or the fuel ?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

That all depends, are you running your car on an AFR of less than 1?
(thats the crossover point for total charge temp effects, LOL)


Seriously though, Air charge temp makes MUCH more difference (and I would imagine counted for a lot of Euans difference)

Rex Kramer

iTrader: (1)

am i right in thinging that for every 1C ACT reduction equals about 1BHP?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Thats exactly correct, although I couldnt tell you which engine for

Rex Kramer

iTrader: (1)

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I can just imagine some kid with a moped reading that and thinking that when its winter his 2bhp engine develops 35bhp instead due to the 33 degree colder intake temp

Fast Guy

If you cool the fuel, it also has the abilty to cool the inlet charge further as well.

I thought they said the F1 temps were 10degs below ambient, not below zero.

I did see in a mag many years ago that for every 10 degs you reduce the charge temp, you see a 7% increase in power. How accurate that was I don't know.

AndyRST

The F1 teams dont run "10 below zero". They are allowed upto 10 degrees below the ambient temp on the day If they ran 10 below zero they would be disqualified from the race unless the race was held in frozen conditions

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Sounds reasonable to me.

Dont forget that the law of "compounding" applies there though, not addition.


So for example, 50 degree charge temp increase =

.93 ^ 5 = 30% drop

NOT 1 - (.07 * 5) = 35% drop


Not sure its exactly accurate in all cases, but certainly doesnt sound a million miles away.

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

Lower temps will always give power.

Fuel temp makes little difference as by volume its only a small percentage
in terms of AFR and fuel density isnt greatly affect compared to airs.

Conversly, charge air temp makes a bigger difference as it has more volume
in the cylinder and also oxygen mass is affected greater than fuels
for a given temperature.

Years ago, Rover were the only makers to have fuel temperature sensors
in the fuel rail, no one else did as far as I know
Fitting more parts than was required put them out of business

Hope that makes sense as I am pissed

GARETH T

my advice is dont bother

and remember if you are going to change the temp of your fuel to gain those tiny gains, you going to need a ecu with a correction map for the fuel temp!

and PMSL @ 50 BHP

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Frightening that Euan is at a garage who supposedly have a clue what they are doing and yet let him leave believing that.

cossiemanden

From what i have learnt is that the cooler the fuel are, the lower egt`s you get, and therefore les knock.
I seem to recall that old Renault 5 gt-turbo run fuel coolers, and it actually worked pretty good

tomcos

More frightening is that I should be judged on what my customers think or conclude or are you suggesting worse?ie lies,incompitance .As you were not party to the testing & clearly not party to all the information gleaned
why would you leap to this conclusion?worse still express it on an open forum? For the record I believe fuel cooling has minor benifits in line with your discussion,a long held view.

Alan A.V.A.

rapidcossie

Chip, ALL other paramters(temps etc) are held within a specified range so our testing of my car can be judged on it merits.

My car can go to AVA and make power readings within 15 hp time after time due to the time Alan takes to measure the results on my car.

Infact my car has only failed to do this on two occasions...one was because of leaking exhuast manifold and the other is the instance I explained above.

GARETH T

rapidcossie

so do you still think it lost 50 BHP due to fuel temps?

rapidcossie

it couldnt have beacuse you and chip say it cant happen

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Alan,
See What your customer posted in this very thread and it should be quite apparent that he CLEARLY left thinking that cooler fuel made his car 50bhp more than slightly warmer fuel, I said I found that frightening and I still do, Im not judging you specifically on it as Ive no way of knowing if you really told Euan that like he implies or if he dreamt it up himself and then tried to back up his nonsense by putting your name to it.

Im not calling him a liar either by the way I dont believe he is.
Its perfectly possible that Euan is just too simple to really be trying to make conclusions on his own and didnt talk to you about it, but if you look at his reply just after yours, he really does believe that was the reason for the change in power and it sounds very much like AVA did too if you read his replies in this thread!

If that wasnt what caused the difference in power (like lets face it everyone of us with the slightest clue about engines KNOWS it bloody well wasnt) then perhaps you need to be either correcting Euan or at least asking him not to imply that your name validates his claims.

The phrase he used was:
So its HIM that is ascociating his nonsense with test thats "you and him" performed and results that "you and him" concluded.


I stand by my statement 100% I dont believe it to be innacurate or libelous.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

What does Alan say?

If the answer is that you havent asked him, then stop including his name and business in all your posts to validate the absolute nonsense that you chat on here from time to time is my advice, as it would appear he doesnt appreciate it!

If the answer is that he believes fuel temp caused 50bhp difference on your car, then Im surprised he has the excellent reputations he does, but I personally do NOT think he will be saying that!

rapidcossie

Chip I dont claim to be an expert or try to tell anyone anything that I say is the be all and end all of what happens.

Alan and I didnt discuss fuel temps at great length but agreed that fuel temp was an issue.


I dont write things on here and expect everyone to take it as gospel.

escort700bhp asking for people comments and that what I did, I commented on what I think happens with fuel temps..

I could be wrong so SUE me

rapidcossie

Chip....I feel that you are directly attacking me by calling me simple in your reply...

Please can you edit your post or I will be directing it to the attention of the mods.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I dont need to sue you because im not the one who's name or business gets ascociated with everything you ever post on here in an attempt to validate it as more than an uneducated guess

On a serious note though, Im sure Alan will be pleased to hear you distancing your claims from him in this instance.

ECU Monitor Enthusiast

iTrader: (1)

LOL, dont be gay

Me and many others have been called far worse and the mods dont even
batter an eye lid