ian sibbert

I think what you do Chip is called 'Thinking Inside the Box'

Seriously pal in this case i'd agree with your sentiment, that its engineering for engineering's sake with fuel line cooling......keep it cool in the tank and enroute you'll have no problems......

Chip

iTrader: (3)

If you heat fuel enough, you can lose potentially FAR more power than that, even after the fuel has cooled down again, without any doubt.

Like any blended liquid, if you get it hot enough, some of the elements of it will evaporate.

The KEY thing to note here though, is that Ewans experiences of what happens when you HEAT fuel from ambient are NOT in anyway an indication of what gains you can make when you COOL fuel from ambient (which is what the post is about of course!)

dumped

How are fuel swirl pots plumbed in? Could pumping high pressure to the engine then back into it constantly lead to significant fuel heating or not as you are taking from a small vessel but then again it is also being supplied from the large tank? Easy to test if someone can be bothered. Just stick your hand on the swirl pot after a few blasts. Or does pumping at 3.5 to 5bar odd fuel pressures not impart any heat on the fuel?

Then you can argue about it losing 0.5hp or 50hp afterwards just for fun lol

Ryan

also chip the other to note is thats its spelt ¨EUAN¨

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Thats how I was spelling it, then Alan put "Ewan" and I changed it cause I assumed he must know as its his customer

Deleted by Request

...oh dear,Chip gave one good reply then resorted in slagging off a professional tuner again whilst fixing computers

Garage19

Oh come on.....

a 450 bhp car loosing 50 bhp because the fuel temp has risen by a few degrees C

Its quite clearly stated that the car had been run up and down on the dyno for a while. It might have a small effect but would it not make sense that the majority the power loss was infact more down to heat soak on the IC and a rise of ambeint air temp in the RR cell.

What sort of RR does AVA have? Does it have auto ambient air temp correction or is it set at the begining of a session like some RRs.

tomcos

So Chip when you're testing you're monitoring fuel temps?Every time? Sometimes? Never?

Alan A.V.A.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

You've missed some stuff in the middle mate.

Apparently the fuel was allowed to get VERY hot, which obviously COULD cause that sort of drop in power.

Although obviously does NOT imply that means you could gain that much power by further cooling the fuel beyond ambient like Euan was implying.

Steven_RW

Actually - the topic is "cooler the fuel the more power it produces? any body coment?"

It doesn't suggest that we are discussing cooling it below ambient.

The sum total of this topic is that the question is rather open and people interpreted it differently, followed by certain individuals making further incorrect assumptions. Resulting in a vast waste of time and some back peddling. Followed up with further comments from Chip that suggest AVA are not professional for allowing fuel to get warm enough to make a bhp difference with NO technical data provided by anyone as to what increase in temp creates what bhp loss. Also with no understanding as to WHY the fuel tank got that hot and what test was being carried out, followed by further assumptions and more accusations of lack of profesionalism.

Sounds like another worth while topic

RW

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Only when appropriate
(so that would be at times like fitting an exhaust that ran next to the petrol tank and I wasnt sure if I had sufficient insulation for example )

Chip

iTrader: (3)

* Serious mode for a minute *

I actually view it as a VERY worth while topic, and if it wasnt for all the pisstaking a lot of facts would never have come to light that im sure many of us wouldnt have been aware of.

I personally for example could easily have made the same mistake that Euan/AVA did with the exhaust, its far too easy to forget how one thing effects something else when modifying a car.

tomcos

So how often is that?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I can only think of one time ive ever needed to make sure an exhaust wasnt heating fuel and bothered to measure the fuel temp as a result, and it was on a motorbike.

So I would put that in the "almost never" category.
Obviously if I made exhausts for cars and then rolling roaded them for a living though, I would expect to do so more often than I do currently.

But like I said in my reply to StevenRW, in all seriousness im sure that most of us on here have made similar mistakes or easily could do, I was only responding in kind to Euan's banter to me making out I was somehow back pedalling just because I hadnt initially guessed at how hot his fuel could possibly be getting as he hadnt mentioned that the car had now had a different exhaust fitted that past right next to the petrol tank and was heating it up.

tomcos

Chip when you were cherrypicking my earlier post you overlooked? "excessive fuel heating beyond the figures you suggested"which I had rather hoped would clarify things for you
Still very decent of you to admit that its just possible for anyone to make a mistake including you,you dont say whether that makes us all of questionable reputation or stupid,perhaps you could clear that up?

Alan A.V.A.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

"human" would sum it up best

tomcos

Garage 19 it has auto setting for temp comps but I wouldn't normally use it for turbo applications.

Regards Alan A.V.A.

GARETH T

ok lets clear something up,,, HOW did the engine loose 50 bhp through high fuel temps?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Gareth, I suspect that even now Alan isnt attributing the WHOLE 50bhp to just the fuel temp.

tomcos

Gareth.The fifty mentioned was never a verified figure & so should not have been quoted without qualification. It was noticed that during mapping there was a change in the fueling readings & that the det limit had dropped requiring more retard to be applied,no comparison was drawn it merely caused some head scratching until it was noticed how hot the nearly empty tank was.Refilling the tank & trying again returned the readings & det limit to the prior settings.Testing with a full tank for shorter periods seemed to eliminate it & it was simply put down to a problem with that specific test &hung away at the back of my mind for future reference not as proof of the properties of fuel cooling.It has been taken out of context for this discussion.The exhaust was lagged as a further precaution but only after testing was finished.

Yes a noticable effect was seen maybe as much as 50 I dont recall I only remember it as being significant beyond normal temp variations & they can be quite large on a high boost car.

No that does not constitute a verifiable test

Yes the knock on factors of ignition retard & the rising temps therein caused,had an adverse effect on the readings.

Hope that answers your question.Regards Alan A.V.A.

No need to suspect it Chip its written in the earlier post.(in fact you quoted it back)I have never thought that the loss was only the fuel.

Daviet

i take it the heating of fuel would have a greater effect on turbod cars than n/a cars? just wondered as i was under the impression on turbod cars fuel is used to cool the cylinders or is it the same on n/a cars?so adding something hot isnt going to help temps in the engine and also as said will lose its additives when heated .
and at chip..he is the new ginge

NEEDFORSPEED

i dont know whats been said in the 4 pages in between cos i couldnt be arsed reading it but a bently turbo i did a bit of work on had a tricky fuel cooler on it based around the a/c low pressure pipe looked very trick

big_wig_074

my golf makes 0bhp with no petrol in it,but if i stick a full tank in it it will make 75bhp,so if i bought a tank twice the size would i get 150bhp?and if i only run it in cold conditions so the fuel is cold can i get 200bhp?wow,cheapest and easiest tuning in the world,im on the case to fit a hgv fuel trailer to the back and compete in top fuel events!!!

PF Dave

Yes!

I have a VERY knowledgeable contact on all aspects of fuel, fuel systems, and the real nano-geekery (did I just invent a word then? LOL) of it all.

When we were talking about the fuel setup in my Fiesta, the pump I was originally going to use was well within my engines required consumption range yet, he advised me against that model as it would be circulating so much wasted fuel even at my peak power that after being forced through the fuel rail at high pressure it would be heated up and returned to the swirlpot which would cause my fuel temperature to constantly rise and thus was not advised.

As per Ian's point, just another slant to the topic...

Chip

iTrader: (3)

The effect is very similar on a turbo or N/A car, for fuel temp it doesnt make any significant difference really.