GARETH T

chip did the right thing,,, as if left to go on i can see people going out and fitting methods of cooling there fuel and such like! wasting there money in search of large extra power

tomcos

Sorry but my reading of your original post was & is that it is a personal critisism words like "supposedly" & "allowed him to leave believing" can surely only be taken that way?You seem to now be saying that it is Ewan that is at fault & the blame is solely his?Perhaps if instead of refuting the claim straight away you had possibly asked for qualification ie fuel temp recorded,any other mitigating factors instead of steamrollering him you might have promoted a more useful technical discussion?
Your dislike of Ewans posts is clear,however as he has found himself in a position to witness things being tested or tried out that many of your other contributors have not & then chooses to share them for whatever reason
(you seem to have chosen reflected glory)is it not better for the cause of technical discussion?Personally I wouldn't bother as its clearly not worth the hassle it does however serve to remind me why I shouldn't read or post on these threads

For the record

The test did take place

Ewan did witness it

The figures he mentioned were seen

Excessive fuel heating did take place beyond the figures you suggested

Other factors were involved

This was not a test to prove the effect of fuel heating & no such conclussion was drawn by me

The only conclussion drawn by me was don't test with with excessive fuel temp as it interferes with the results

I do not control what my customers say or think

Regards Alan A.V.A.

rst in breaking

iTrader: (2)

well whos up for ice cubes in thier tanks and letting us know the results?

Mark_w

Its not just this site he annoys most of the members then

mark

Deleted by Request

Alan AVA,

Please forgive PassionFord...we have a user who hogs 95% of threads to try and make others look stupid for a look at me i am a know it all but only thru reading books,he is a vauxhall boy..need i say more?Its pathetic he could actually go far on these forums if he used his brain cells in actually being constructive instead of only critizising...but let it be known he is pissing many folk off on many boards..unfortunately he is his own downfall.

gym-rst

I see i had often wondered how come they were used on the diesels an not the petrol models, and if i could put them to use some how on my cossie.





Have changed loads though mind at work from people twating the underside on speed bumps to fast an fracturing the pipes and diesel pissing everywhere.

danneth

chip

ever heard the phrase " you cant educate pork? "

gym-rst

Sorry did i miss out the, but after reading all the points put across on this subject that if used on a petrol car ie my cossie the gains would be very small or in chips view imo pointless. And after reading his post now know the diesel engines pump the fuel in so fast it needs to be cooled to get the temps back down again before entering the engine is the reason they use them, From my post for you.

I asked a question i had been wondering about an got an answer whats wrong with that

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Thanks for the support, I think sometimes that because the people on here who like to bitch without even having any useful input to a thread all bandwagon jump in with each other just for the sake of it and most of the time and no one bothers to say anything to the contrary as they just cant be arsed to get invovled. That the silly little twats end up thinking everyone feels the same way and they somehow represent the majority just cause they are the only ones saying anything (or rather, talking a lot and saying nothing)

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Thanks again, as per my post above

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Thanks again, as per my post above

Chip

iTrader: (3)

No need to apologise mate, its easy to misread things in a different way to which they were typed, nothing is less clear than the written word sometimes!


My observation is that popular belief is that you are supposed to be very good at what you do, Ive no evidence to the contary so im not going to dispute it, but im also not going to word it as if I have firsthand experience of it when I dont, so "supposedly" or "reportedly" or words to that effect needed to be included to show it was only hearsay from my point of view and not my own experienced view of you.

I said "allowed him to leave believing" as that is obviously what happened, I havent put "AVA TOLD HIM" for the simple reason that I dont beleive you did, because I dont believe that someone with your good reputation would be so stupid as to jump to the conclusion Ewan wrongly believed you to have done.


Ewan incorrectly represented the views of your company IMHO yes, I dont beleive he did so deliberately or trying to mislead people, he just said a load of bollocks that he genuinely beleived to actually be true.

Its possible, but TBH the claim was so completely ridiculous I didnt really see much value in getting the details of what he wrongly believed, it was very obvious from his post that no such measurements were made or he would have quoted figures.
When people claim things that are unlikely I question them for details, when the claim things that are just totally and utterly completely ridiculous I dont bother as frankly it happens so often that even with the amount of time I spend on PF I couldnt touch the surface of what some of the idiots on here think

I reguarly enjoy Ewans posts, I think he (and to probably a larger extent you) is doing great things with his cars, I think his results are amazing and I always enjoy hearing about them, and I have a massive amount of respect for what your team has achieved, my dislike of posts that are massively inaccurate technically and worse still (like GarethT mentions) potentially about to mislead people into trying things believing they will get gains when they wont is not in anyway effected by if Ewan posts them or not, I would have replied the same to ANY forum member making such a ridiculous claim.

I think its great that Ewan shares some of the details of what you guys do, very interesting reading on the occasions when he portrays it accurately.

Ewan seemed not to believe the bit about other factors when I told him, im glad you are able to mention it here though for clarity just so others realise that the test Ewan thought he saw (ie one directly about fuel temps ONLY) in fact never occurred, that was just one of many factors that effected it.

You may not intend to, but clearly in this case you did, Ewan is clearly very enthusiastic about his car and also very keen to learn how things work, he's trying to absorb things and as a result left thinking that your comment about the fuel was a lot more significant than it was, im sure that was not your intention, but clearly it happened anyway.

Steven_RW

Hi Guys.

So to conclude - it makes a bit of difference but not worth most people trying to refrigerate their petrol tanks?

I believe in f1 the rule is something like " not allowed to be cooler than 5 degrees below ambient "

Internet turns regular conversations between regular people into massive long winded arguments that are never solved and waste a phenomenal amount of time concluding nothing - followed by dropping off the front page and never to be raised again.

Interestingly enough - I expect that chip would very much enjoy a face to face chat with Alan. I always find it rather enlightening.

Cheers for now chaps

RW

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Steven, its 10 degrees in F1, but is more about the time to fill the tank than to do with power gains I suspect.

And yes im sure I would really enjoy a natter with Alan, although I suspect there wouldnt be much in it for him as no doubt the only person learning anything would be me!

RWD_cossie_wil

iTrader: (9)

Has to be said, I whole-heartedly agree with chip here , 50BHP for fuel temps is a bit extreme, unless the fuel was so hot it was suffering from inline vapourisation ( a la Renault 5 GTT!) and causing air bubbles , but it would have to be VERY hot to do that..... Reading the original post it states that the car had been on the rollers for some time, and the very first thing that popped into my head was "heatsoak". Even with everything being monitored, half an hours cooling after a morning of running would allow plenty of time for things to come back to a sensible temp, things like intercooler,radiator etc etc, tyres, transmission etc etc. Personally I think this would be a much more likely factor in the power increase than mere fuel temp alone....

Be interesting to see a direct isolated test of fuel temp Vs Power though

Charlie Chalk

iTrader: (1)

I havent , But I know you can fuck it

dojj

iTrader: (3)

a few things that, as a late reader, i think i might have missed here and someoe should be able to clarify for me

the f1 arguement, if it's cooler when it goes in, how does it stay cooler when it's in the tank?
is the fuel forced in under pressure? and, if so, how does the tank hold this extra pressure? i've heard it's a bag so perhaps it's got a spring around it that squeezes the fuel ab it?

yes?
no?

i think people are also confusing fuel temps with fuel getting too hot, rather than having cold fuel in the first place, and i think there is a difference there between the temps getting too hot because of the location of the fuel tank as opposed to the fuel getting too hot when it's returning from the fuel rail beacuse of engine heat soak
fuel at x temp provides x amount of power
fuel at y temp provides y amount of power
so by cooling the fuel down again closer to ambient temps rather than coolin it before it gets to the engine are 2 totaly different things are they?
it's like going to work on a hot day with a caot on or going to work on a hot day without a coat on
if you feel to hot you take the caot off
if you feel too hot and you don'thave a coat you drink some water
same cooling, different reasons and different temps associated with it

yes?
no?

chip gets another blasting from people who don't quite "get" him or his posting style
i've learnt a lot from what he's posted, it may be common knowledge or just common sense, but he's worded it in a way that makes sense without being over complicated, which is a blessing for me bceause i'm a bit thick when it comes to explanations
this isn't a big up chip post because i don't think he needs it, and it's not a defending chip post because he's putting up a fine spirited fight for his replies, it's more of a thank you chip for explaining things post, because he's explained them

one more thng then, if you have an empty tank and go and fill up, the fuel coming from the underground tanks will obviously be cooler than what was in your car already, so will you gain power? or will you still be getting fuel delivered to the engine at the same temp due to the heat soak associsated by the plumbing necesary?

one mroe thng, it iar gets heated up the more you compress it, why doesn't eh same thing happen for fuel?

foreigneRS

interesting 'discussion'

some comments:

half an hour cooling down is not very long unless it's in a very cold ambient

a full tank of fuel on a hot day can be a lot hotter than a quarter tank on a cold day

there is a massive difference in common rail diesel engines to petrol engines - because the rail pressure is massively higher on the diesels. the more you compress something, the hotter it gets, so the unused diesel from the fuel rail going back to the tank is much hotter than the unused petrol going back to the tank hence why they fit coolers in the return line.

turbocharged rolls royces and bentleys (using the old 6.75 litre v8) had fuel coolers fitted - and not just ones that were a fuel to air heat excahnger. they used the Air Conditioning to cool it. why?

tomcos

Chip as I don't follow these threads often enough to know you can I ask is the info you post from personal experimentation or reading?

Regards Alan

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Most of what I post is just from my own experience with my cars and the cars of friends, Im rather embarssed to say this as I know there is a lot of great literature out there but the only book on engines ive ever read properly is "Tuning BL's A series Engine" about fifteen years ago I probably should read more though.

JTECH James

iTrader: (13)

i dont think a fuel/air cooler would make much of a difference to petrol...its actually quite cold anyway, certainly nowhere near as hot as a common rail fuel gets the ammount of pressure the common rail pumps produce and the way they compress the fuel raises the temp alot! so passing hotter fuel through a cooler makes sense in that application,

but how much do you think you could cool petrol with one pass through an air cooler when the fuel is already around ambient temp? 1 maybe 2 degrees......imo that would make no diffence at all. it may be different if you could get it down to negative temps.....

foreigneRS

who says petrol in a tank that has been through the pump and injector rail several times over is close to ambient temperature or cold? petrol feels colder than it is because it evaporates off the skin

tomcos

I ask because from your interpretation of my post it appears I haven't expressed myself clearly enough to make myself understood or is it that you are so intent on winning the argument that you have cherry picked it for favourable comments?A "frightening" (to borrow your parlance) technique for a technical discussion.Youre mistaken(?)if you think I was apologising.
It would appear,to me at least,that you are more interested in winning than in fact,would you agree that winning an argument does not always make you right? Let me say also (in case of misunderstanding)I don't think you have won anything here but you have certainly been offensive in pursuit of it,at least to me.

Regards Alan A.V.A.

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

I will have to ask my mate who worked for Rover... He carried out fuel temp tests on their dyno, he did tell me the results they found but I can't remember.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Won?

I didnt realise it was a contest, and dont feel ive won or lost anything at all, I was just trying to help people understand the truth, and not believe a load of old "official AVA results" bollocks that Ewan posted.

RWD_cossie_wil

iTrader: (9)

I would be interested in the dyno results martin

mrjenrst

that would sort this out

Steven_RW

Chip - this isn't going the right way.

Alan will be using experience and testing he has personally carried out over years of dyno tuning etc. The chances are you haven't personally carried out similar tests.

Good luck sorting this out lol

RW

NEIL A

iTrader: (6)

The results Euan /Alan have seen were on a highly tuned engine where everything is adjusted for max power, so the results stated will be much more than on a normal engine surely.

Deleted by Request

Chip/Simon

..Just an observation you quoted "i should read more" Well you are on forums it would appear most of your life,so i would say you read more than any book reader on Earth...we ALL know your experience comes from reading..be it a book or the internet..they are the same thing really.You cannot possibly have ANY time left to actually test..and when you did i heard you made a mistake.

Much Love
Philip

foreigneRS

as has already been said - if the fuel temp. during the testing at AVA that Euan is talking about did make 50 BHP difference, that is a hell of a lot and would have needed some correction in the maps so that it doesn't run rich (with cold fuel) or lean (with hot fuel).

Turbocabbie

David Vizard if memory serves me right, yellow cover on the book damn heavy thing, really good read

Mark_w

Phil...there are a lot of experts out there after they have read a forum,a book or have a best mate who has got/done that

regards mate

Turbocabbie

I never personally took this thread to be a competition or an attempt to Win anything.

I noted a statement made, questioning of that statement clarification and discussion, I really enjoyed it myself and learnt something.

I think the three main people in this thread who contained the most knowledge or persepective (Chip-3Door, Alan, rapidcossie) behaved in a dignified manner presenting each point intelligently, at worst there was a little sarcasm.

When we have a forum full of threads about ex-girl friends, and what do I do about this bird im seeing, in between the happy birthday and party threads its nice to have a topic about cars where I actually learn something.

Chip-3Door, Alan, rapidcossie thanks

good healthy debate.. liked it

GARETH T

my point earlier

COMEDY DAN

With the little flashing lights in..

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, thats the one

Chip

iTrader: (3)

There certainly are, just not me, I tend to talk mainly about stuff Ive got relevent experience of when its technical details unless its from a particuarly good source, as I wouldnt want to make the mistake Ewan did here of talking about something I dont understand from firsthand experience, Bosch_Dealer also frequently does this when trying to remember stuff he's heard Julian Godfrey say to someone.

Not just limited to people on this forum though, Ive seen quite a few people on othe forums quoting technical stuff ive written in magazines for example and they havent really understood exactly what I meant.

Its all good though, as if people do make a mistake on these forums, there is normally one of us there who understands the subject to correct them, thats the best thing about forums in fact

If im ever writing something and need to refer to someone elses knowledge cause mine runs out, I always both credit them for it AND get them to proof read it (like I did with DannyB from here on an article on FWD drag preperation I wrote) that way no one ever gets misquoted

Deleted by Request

...what a pleasant tackful reply Chip Keep that up and we could be lovers with your best mate silky the spit roast

radiant red

I think chips bang on for his entertaining and knowlegable replies, makes perfect sense to me