Torque of the Devil RR Day - 6th Oct
08-10-2007, 12:30 PM
#242
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Originally Posted by dingy
Boost gauge is irrelevant really chris....
As the boost was measured by the dyno both at yours and at nobles...
As the boost was measured by the dyno both at yours and at nobles...
A tim and a defi boost gauge read very unalike.
08-10-2007, 12:34 PM
#244
PassionFord Post Troll
No idea what the dyno's use to be fair - wasn't the point i was making....
Would have been interesting to have had the datalogger in car to see what the boost was saying compared to the rollers
Would have been interesting to have had the datalogger in car to see what the boost was saying compared to the rollers
08-10-2007, 02:26 PM
#246
Testing the future
Originally Posted by Chris@torque of the devil
I think someone should open up a climatic wind tunnel tuning company, that way we could all map properly under all temperatures and conditions!, and we wouldnt have to break the speed limit and risk life and limb with on the road mapping and avoid "not mapping properly" on a chassis dyno 
my place of work, a climatic wind tunnel with rolling road, has a temperature range from 5 to 50 deg. C with a windspeed of 70mph (that requires a fan with a 200 kW electric motor
) and charges 3500 per day.our place in germany can do -40 to +50 deg. C wih a windspeed of 100mph and that will cost you 9000 per day
if you have a customer that has that sort of money for tuning, you are quite welcome to come and use it
08-10-2007, 05:26 PM
#247
It Wasnt Me!
Originally Posted by Karl
Chaps,
I did'nt say you can't map a car on the RR, just that you cannot create the correct environment to map the car properly. Obviously some RR are better than others.
I did'nt say you can't map a car on the RR, just that you cannot create the correct environment to map the car properly. Obviously some RR are better than others.
Originally Posted by Karl
Ok just to give a very laymans term example................
How do you simulate that winter morning Bruntingthorpe top speed run at 170mph+ with air temps of 5degC on a RR? Answer is you can't, you have to go to Bruntingthorpe and map the car!
Remember also that an engine makes 3% more power for every 10DegC air temp reduction, but this also requires the correct ignition timing and fueling. Unless mapped in these conditions in the real world, the RR map will be a different set of conditions, not necessarily wrong for those conditions on the RR, but potentially a long way from the maximum power and hence fuel/ignition requirments that would be seen on the winter mornings bruntingthorpe top speed run.
Are you confident your fuel system can cope with the extra 10 - 20% power increase you may have on that runway, or that your ignition top line is safe for that sustained 40 second run???
How do you simulate that winter morning Bruntingthorpe top speed run at 170mph+ with air temps of 5degC on a RR? Answer is you can't, you have to go to Bruntingthorpe and map the car!
Remember also that an engine makes 3% more power for every 10DegC air temp reduction, but this also requires the correct ignition timing and fueling. Unless mapped in these conditions in the real world, the RR map will be a different set of conditions, not necessarily wrong for those conditions on the RR, but potentially a long way from the maximum power and hence fuel/ignition requirments that would be seen on the winter mornings bruntingthorpe top speed run.
Are you confident your fuel system can cope with the extra 10 - 20% power increase you may have on that runway, or that your ignition top line is safe for that sustained 40 second run???
08-10-2007, 05:31 PM
#248
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Originally Posted by vroooom ptssssh
Originally Posted by Karl
Chaps,
I did'nt say you can't map a car on the RR, just that you cannot create the correct environment to map the car properly. Obviously some RR are better than others.
I did'nt say you can't map a car on the RR, just that you cannot create the correct environment to map the car properly. Obviously some RR are better than others.
Originally Posted by Karl
Ok just to give a very laymans term example................
How do you simulate that winter morning Bruntingthorpe top speed run at 170mph+ with air temps of 5degC on a RR? Answer is you can't, you have to go to Bruntingthorpe and map the car!
Remember also that an engine makes 3% more power for every 10DegC air temp reduction, but this also requires the correct ignition timing and fueling. Unless mapped in these conditions in the real world, the RR map will be a different set of conditions, not necessarily wrong for those conditions on the RR, but potentially a long way from the maximum power and hence fuel/ignition requirments that would be seen on the winter mornings bruntingthorpe top speed run.
Are you confident your fuel system can cope with the extra 10 - 20% power increase you may have on that runway, or that your ignition top line is safe for that sustained 40 second run???
How do you simulate that winter morning Bruntingthorpe top speed run at 170mph+ with air temps of 5degC on a RR? Answer is you can't, you have to go to Bruntingthorpe and map the car!
Remember also that an engine makes 3% more power for every 10DegC air temp reduction, but this also requires the correct ignition timing and fueling. Unless mapped in these conditions in the real world, the RR map will be a different set of conditions, not necessarily wrong for those conditions on the RR, but potentially a long way from the maximum power and hence fuel/ignition requirments that would be seen on the winter mornings bruntingthorpe top speed run.
Are you confident your fuel system can cope with the extra 10 - 20% power increase you may have on that runway, or that your ignition top line is safe for that sustained 40 second run???
all Karl is saying is that in NO WAY can a rolling road re-create the conditions of live mapping on the road.
08-10-2007, 05:54 PM
#249
It Wasnt Me!
bud-weis, Yes mate I know what he's/your saying, but Im just wondering if he feels he could get more power from Euans car from live mapping!
I feel live mapping is stupid, IF Karl can get a small gain in power over what can be achieved on a RR from a cars map but endager his, his passengers and all the other people on the roads lifes, or lose his license driving like a lunatic not to mention breaking the law, then I doubt it's worth it, IF what he's saying is possible...an that goes for everyone who 'live maps' not just Karl.
I feel live mapping is stupid, IF Karl can get a small gain in power over what can be achieved on a RR from a cars map but endager his, his passengers and all the other people on the roads lifes, or lose his license driving like a lunatic not to mention breaking the law, then I doubt it's worth it, IF what he's saying is possible...an that goes for everyone who 'live maps' not just Karl.
08-10-2007, 06:28 PM
#250
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by vroooom ptssssh
Originally Posted by Karl
Chaps,
I did'nt say you can't map a car on the RR, just that you cannot create the correct environment to map the car properly. Obviously some RR are better than others.
I did'nt say you can't map a car on the RR, just that you cannot create the correct environment to map the car properly. Obviously some RR are better than others.
Originally Posted by Karl
Ok just to give a very laymans term example................
How do you simulate that winter morning Bruntingthorpe top speed run at 170mph+ with air temps of 5degC on a RR? Answer is you can't, you have to go to Bruntingthorpe and map the car!
Remember also that an engine makes 3% more power for every 10DegC air temp reduction, but this also requires the correct ignition timing and fueling. Unless mapped in these conditions in the real world, the RR map will be a different set of conditions, not necessarily wrong for those conditions on the RR, but potentially a long way from the maximum power and hence fuel/ignition requirments that would be seen on the winter mornings bruntingthorpe top speed run.
Are you confident your fuel system can cope with the extra 10 - 20% power increase you may have on that runway, or that your ignition top line is safe for that sustained 40 second run???
How do you simulate that winter morning Bruntingthorpe top speed run at 170mph+ with air temps of 5degC on a RR? Answer is you can't, you have to go to Bruntingthorpe and map the car!
Remember also that an engine makes 3% more power for every 10DegC air temp reduction, but this also requires the correct ignition timing and fueling. Unless mapped in these conditions in the real world, the RR map will be a different set of conditions, not necessarily wrong for those conditions on the RR, but potentially a long way from the maximum power and hence fuel/ignition requirments that would be seen on the winter mornings bruntingthorpe top speed run.
Are you confident your fuel system can cope with the extra 10 - 20% power increase you may have on that runway, or that your ignition top line is safe for that sustained 40 second run???
mark at grove has been mapping cars on the road for over 20 years and hes got a clean liscie there is an time and place to map them all
so much so they did not want to map paul johnston on the road as it was a killer
08-10-2007, 08:01 PM
#251
Happily retired
Originally Posted by vroooom ptssssh
bud-weis, Yes mate I know what he's/your saying, but Im just wondering if he feels he could get more power from Euans car from live mapping!
I feel live mapping is stupid, IF Karl can get a small gain in power over what can be achieved on a RR from a cars map but endager his, his passengers and all the other people on the roads lifes, or lose his license driving like a lunatic not to mention breaking the law, then I doubt it's worth it, IF what he's saying is possible...an that goes for everyone who 'live maps' not just Karl.
I feel live mapping is stupid, IF Karl can get a small gain in power over what can be achieved on a RR from a cars map but endager his, his passengers and all the other people on the roads lifes, or lose his license driving like a lunatic not to mention breaking the law, then I doubt it's worth it, IF what he's saying is possible...an that goes for everyone who 'live maps' not just Karl.
Is it worth it, get real
. Its the only way.
08-10-2007, 08:03 PM
#252
It Wasnt Me!
Originally Posted by MadRod
Originally Posted by vroooom ptssssh
bud-weis, Yes mate I know what he's/your saying, but Im just wondering if he feels he could get more power from Euans car from live mapping!
I feel live mapping is stupid, IF Karl can get a small gain in power over what can be achieved on a RR from a cars map but endager his, his passengers and all the other people on the roads lifes, or lose his license driving like a lunatic not to mention breaking the law, then I doubt it's worth it, IF what he's saying is possible...an that goes for everyone who 'live maps' not just Karl.
I feel live mapping is stupid, IF Karl can get a small gain in power over what can be achieved on a RR from a cars map but endager his, his passengers and all the other people on the roads lifes, or lose his license driving like a lunatic not to mention breaking the law, then I doubt it's worth it, IF what he's saying is possible...an that goes for everyone who 'live maps' not just Karl.
Is it worth it, get real
. Its the only way.
08-10-2007, 08:23 PM
#254
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Originally Posted by MadRod
Originally Posted by vroooom ptssssh
bud-weis, Yes mate I know what he's/your saying, but Im just wondering if he feels he could get more power from Euans car from live mapping!
I feel live mapping is stupid, IF Karl can get a small gain in power over what can be achieved on a RR from a cars map but endager his, his passengers and all the other people on the roads lifes, or lose his license driving like a lunatic not to mention breaking the law, then I doubt it's worth it, IF what he's saying is possible...an that goes for everyone who 'live maps' not just Karl.
I feel live mapping is stupid, IF Karl can get a small gain in power over what can be achieved on a RR from a cars map but endager his, his passengers and all the other people on the roads lifes, or lose his license driving like a lunatic not to mention breaking the law, then I doubt it's worth it, IF what he's saying is possible...an that goes for everyone who 'live maps' not just Karl.
Is it worth it, get real
. Its the only way. what can you do 1/4 mile in mate ?
must have major traction issues in all gears once it starts loosing traction
09-10-2007, 07:28 AM
#255
Testing the future
as alex f has already stated on this thread, car manufacturers do preliminary work on dynos, but the mapping has to be finished on the road and takes weeks
Just out of interest, how does Stu map cars when they come to MSD?
09-10-2007, 02:07 PM
#257
It Wasnt Me!
_DAN_, I THINK he used to live map them, but now has a Rolling Road so assume he now does it on that, but he might still finnish it off on the road I dont know.
09-10-2007, 02:13 PM
#258
I'd almost bet money that a road-mapped car can produce more power if it was then mapped on the dyno.
I have not seen a road-mapped car that has been mapped anything other than 'conservatively' in all honesty.
That's not to say that when we dyno-map a car, we take it to the edge, but at least we usually know where the 'edge' is, so now how far we are away from it.
I was amazed at the amount of cars at our most recent RR day that had AFR's dropping into the 10's and several were idling in the 11's!!
I have not seen a road-mapped car that has been mapped anything other than 'conservatively' in all honesty.
That's not to say that when we dyno-map a car, we take it to the edge, but at least we usually know where the 'edge' is, so now how far we are away from it.
I was amazed at the amount of cars at our most recent RR day that had AFR's dropping into the 10's and several were idling in the 11's!!
09-10-2007, 02:30 PM
#259
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They generally run leaner on the road than rollers. On a 200hp fiesta with decent intercooler, 11.7 on road = 10.9 on rollers, tested numerous times within the course of a morning.
09-10-2007, 02:48 PM
#260
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Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
I was amazed at the amount of cars at our most recent RR day that had AFR's dropping into the 10's and several were idling in the 11's!!
Unlike the evo (which I commented on) and your escort, even on the 'rough' map (as you put it). It still seemed to hover around the mid 11's, foot to the boards.
09-10-2007, 02:51 PM
#261
Originally Posted by lead_foot
Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
I was amazed at the amount of cars at our most recent RR day that had AFR's dropping into the 10's and several were idling in the 11's!!
Unlike the evo (which I commented on) and your escort, even on the 'rough' map (as you put it). It still seemed to hover around the mid 11's, foot to the boards.
09-10-2007, 03:04 PM
#263
Originally Posted by lead_foot
I'm saying that both the APT EVO and your Escort seemed to be around the mid 11's on full throttle when they were on the Dyno.
...and both idle at around 14.5. (OK, so mine doesn't idle particularly happily at the moment, but that's more to do with other issues than with the AFR).
09-10-2007, 03:32 PM
#264
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Bit of a late reply to the thread.
But had a wicked day, despite learning that my car has more that 2 diffs and that the 3rd one being the viscous diff in the Box was Fook'd.
Oh well, thats cossies for you, It made it on the rollers for a few seconds anyway....
There were some tasty motors there and some animals too.
Well done TOTD for a good day and well done Radders for Organising it.
I will have my new Box in ready for the next one....
But had a wicked day, despite learning that my car has more that 2 diffs and that the 3rd one being the viscous diff in the Box was Fook'd.
Oh well, thats cossies for you, It made it on the rollers for a few seconds anyway....
There were some tasty motors there and some animals too.
Well done TOTD for a good day and well done Radders for Organising it.
I will have my new Box in ready for the next one....
09-10-2007, 03:44 PM
#266
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Originally Posted by Karl
I did'nt mean to come across as criticising, apologies if I did. It's just alarming that people run their cars up in an enviroment which could do irreversible damage!
I've been moaning about this for years especially at Nobles too. It's just crazy that anyone with a turbocharged car running at high boost runs it on the RR. The incredible heat generated by an engine at full load simply cannot be disipated fast enough by any fan.
I know people love these days, but I constantly worry about the damage it can cause, especially engines that end up running ACT's at 70DegC +.
I've been moaning about this for years especially at Nobles too. It's just crazy that anyone with a turbocharged car running at high boost runs it on the RR. The incredible heat generated by an engine at full load simply cannot be disipated fast enough by any fan.
I know people love these days, but I constantly worry about the damage it can cause, especially engines that end up running ACT's at 70DegC +.
What does DD stand for when people are refering to rolling roads
09-10-2007, 05:16 PM
#267
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Originally Posted by simon170
Ooh was that your one Sounded nasty, hope you get it sorted...
Sounded nasty, hope you get it sorted...but not as bad as i thought it was once they explained, just means all the power is transfered to the rear wheels now, so if i had a bit more power then id have a fun escort cossie for a while...
09-10-2007, 07:55 PM
#270
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Originally Posted by CaftDunt
Some good pics!
Who's was the Venturi and what was up with it as it looks like it was towed there?
Is it the dreaded French electronics!
Who's was the Venturi and what was up with it as it looks like it was towed there?
Is it the dreaded French electronics!
09-10-2007, 08:18 PM
#271
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by vroooom ptssssh
bud-weis, Yes mate I know what he's/your saying, but Im just wondering if he feels he could get more power from Euans car from live mapping!
I feel live mapping is stupid, IF Karl can get a small gain in power over what can be achieved on a RR from a cars map but endager his, his passengers and all the other people on the roads lifes, or lose his license driving like a lunatic not to mention breaking the law, then I doubt it's worth it, IF what he's saying is possible...an that goes for everyone who 'live maps' not just Karl.
I feel live mapping is stupid, IF Karl can get a small gain in power over what can be achieved on a RR from a cars map but endager his, his passengers and all the other people on the roads lifes, or lose his license driving like a lunatic not to mention breaking the law, then I doubt it's worth it, IF what he's saying is possible...an that goes for everyone who 'live maps' not just Karl.
To get the most BHP on a RR, a car most be mapped on that RR.
But then to get the most of it on the road it needs checking/ and/or the map needs to be trimmed on the road.
I map and tune cars on the road in my spare time with out issue, and on my cossie i can map, and keep an eye on the gauges with out much hassle.
Also the brakes can be used to load the engine, so high speed isn't needed all the time.
09-10-2007, 08:21 PM
#272
But I'm still intrigued, someone educate me. How do you map the ignition curve on the road? Serious question?
There is only one method I can think of, perhaps I am being ignorant, and that is to advance to the point of det, then back off slightly.
Come on, enlighten me.
There is only one method I can think of, perhaps I am being ignorant, and that is to advance to the point of det, then back off slightly.
Come on, enlighten me.
09-10-2007, 08:30 PM
#277
Originally Posted by rapidcossie
So what changes when a car goes from rollers onto the road?
More air?
More air?
Also, the acceleration characteristics can be different on the road, but then the processing speeds of your ECU may be an issue before worrying about that.
09-10-2007, 08:30 PM
#278
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
I'm more referring to those that don't go near an RR. What happens then?
you know that answer, your just being a arse.
but i guess for tuners like Mark, Stu and Karl, alot comes from experience of that certain setup on dyno's, so they know roughly what map is good, then they trim for that car,
I know thats how i do the TT's i do.
09-10-2007, 08:32 PM
#279
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Originally Posted by rapidcossie
So what changes when a car goes from rollers onto the road?
More air?
More air?
Alot more air, with different loading, so different parts of the map will be in use, so could turn fatal to the engine if not checked.
Sorry, i like RR's and Dyno's, but can be taken as gospel (sp)
09-10-2007, 08:33 PM
#280
10K+ Poster!!
Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
Incidentally, we can det check on the RR too.
We simply carry out a 4th gear pull from low RPM with a slow ramp rate.
If it doesn't det then, it not likely to det.
We simply carry out a 4th gear pull from low RPM with a slow ramp rate.
If it doesn't det then, it not likely to det.