Boot mounted Radiators
10-08-2007, 07:45 AM
#81
Testing the future
i have a mk2 fiesta to give away for free in basingstoke for experiments if anyone is interested? rotten as a pear, so ideal for chopping about
i would like to be able to offer use of the climatic wind tunnel that i work in, but sadly can't
air flow is easy - you just need to open up from an area of high pressure, to an area of low. to find where abouts on the vehicle is high and low pressure areas, you can use a self built manometer
as for fans pushing or pulling - doesn't matter, as long as you have them doing it in the same direction of the natural airflow
the ability of the fans to move the air should not particularly differ from pushers to pullers, but check the specs before you buy or just experiment with secondhand ones
alex does have experience of cooling requirements, but don't forget that modern vehicles are designed to be able to cope in 50 deg. C heat situations and you probably won't encounter many of those on uk circuits
i would like to be able to offer use of the climatic wind tunnel that i work in, but sadly can't
air flow is easy - you just need to open up from an area of high pressure, to an area of low. to find where abouts on the vehicle is high and low pressure areas, you can use a self built manometer
as for fans pushing or pulling - doesn't matter, as long as you have them doing it in the same direction of the natural airflow
the ability of the fans to move the air should not particularly differ from pushers to pullers, but check the specs before you buy or just experiment with secondhand onesalex does have experience of cooling requirements, but don't forget that modern vehicles are designed to be able to cope in 50 deg. C heat situations and you probably won't encounter many of those on uk circuits
10-08-2007, 07:53 AM
#82
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the doran fiestas heve a duct on the roof and one on eech side with piping to the enclosure in the boot the tailgate is missing most of its metal though so a numberplate would need a new home
10-08-2007, 08:04 AM
#85
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Originally Posted by AlexF
I'd say you encounter worse Nick...
Because your running the engine much harder than you can on the road!
Alex
Because your running the engine much harder than you can on the road!
Alex
10-08-2007, 08:12 AM
#86
Testing the future
one of the tests that we do for ford alex is to do Vmax for 30 minutes at 49 deg. C - that's not something that you do very often on the track
as jacko says, the racetrack should be relatively easy to achieve adequate cooling on as you always have sufficient airflow, unlike a sudden stop in a traffic jam in summer after storming down the autobahn at full pelt with the air con on
as jacko says, the racetrack should be relatively easy to achieve adequate cooling on as you always have sufficient airflow, unlike a sudden stop in a traffic jam in summer after storming down the autobahn at full pelt with the air con on
10-08-2007, 08:14 AM
#87
Originally Posted by jacko
Originally Posted by AlexF
I'd say you encounter worse Nick...
Because your running the engine much harder than you can on the road!
Alex
Because your running the engine much harder than you can on the road!
Alex
I have two fans constatnly running on a huge pro alloy rad up front.
I would however think that if rad in the back if airflow is sourced it should run so much cooler as there is no heat around it whatsoever.
I have emailed mdv who built Dorans cars to see if they can shed any more light.
I need to look closely at the doran cars hopefully they will be at national day.
I thought the scoop on the roof was for driver comfort
10-08-2007, 10:04 AM
#89
Problem with the roof thing is that you'll be fucked if it rains
Boot mounting rad is deffo a good idea. As I mentioned before in this thread ; have you spoken to Tom Scarlett as I am pretty sure his car is in bits at the moment and he did it to his S1 with no problems.
Tom and his Dad did it themselves and are very clever
Maybe he'd be able to offer you some advice on potential problems, better ways of air flow and anything else they encountered along the way.
It doesn't hurt to ask
Boot mounting rad is deffo a good idea. As I mentioned before in this thread ; have you spoken to Tom Scarlett as I am pretty sure his car is in bits at the moment and he did it to his S1 with no problems.
Tom and his Dad did it themselves and are very clever
Maybe he'd be able to offer you some advice on potential problems, better ways of air flow and anything else they encountered along the way.
It doesn't hurt to ask
10-08-2007, 10:10 AM
#90
Originally Posted by Cliff S1
Problem with the roof thing is that you'll be fucked if it rains
Boot mounting rad is deffo a good idea. As I mentioned before in this thread ; have you spoken to Tom Scarlett as I am pretty sure his car is in bits at the moment and he did it to his S1 with no problems.
Tom and his Dad did it themselves and are very clever
Maybe he'd be able to offer you some advice on potential problems, better ways of air flow and anything else they encountered along the way.
It doesn't hurt to ask
Boot mounting rad is deffo a good idea. As I mentioned before in this thread ; have you spoken to Tom Scarlett as I am pretty sure his car is in bits at the moment and he did it to his S1 with no problems.
Tom and his Dad did it themselves and are very clever
Maybe he'd be able to offer you some advice on potential problems, better ways of air flow and anything else they encountered along the way.
It doesn't hurt to ask
Cliff do you have a link to his profile so i can message him please, i tried a search but nothing came up.
is his username tom scarlett or something else
10-08-2007, 10:14 AM
#91
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Gus told me that Tom Scarlett did have cooling issues - but it might have been down top the fact he put the ducts right where the airflow would have been interrupted by the side mirrors?
https://passionford.com/forum/profil...rofile&u=12144
I asked MK to get some pics - but I thought he was away on holiday or something?
https://passionford.com/forum/profil...rofile&u=12144
I asked MK to get some pics - but I thought he was away on holiday or something?
10-08-2007, 10:25 AM
#95
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He must have fans on all the time sucking air through the boot top and out the rear valance (you can just see it in the pic at the bottom).
Doesn't look too efficient to me either.
Doesn't look too efficient to me either.
10-08-2007, 10:41 AM
#97
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I think i'm going to scrap and redo my enclosure i have already built :blub:
On a mk1 Fiesta (possibly the same for a mk3) the boot is pretty deep - and in front of that you have the area which is the tunnel for the fixed rear axle. Position the rad in the boot at a 45 degree angle - cut a vent out in front of that so that air is fed through the rad (via the face of the rear axle tunnel) and then add another vent in the floor at the back of the boot. Create a windage tray under the boot floor to help draw the air out of the radiator enclosure and vent at the back of the boot floor. On top of all this you also have vents in the rear windows to help expell the hot air out.
Difficult to explain - i'll do a quick sketch in a moment.
On a mk1 Fiesta (possibly the same for a mk3) the boot is pretty deep - and in front of that you have the area which is the tunnel for the fixed rear axle. Position the rad in the boot at a 45 degree angle - cut a vent out in front of that so that air is fed through the rad (via the face of the rear axle tunnel) and then add another vent in the floor at the back of the boot. Create a windage tray under the boot floor to help draw the air out of the radiator enclosure and vent at the back of the boot floor. On top of all this you also have vents in the rear windows to help expell the hot air out.
Difficult to explain - i'll do a quick sketch in a moment.
10-08-2007, 10:48 AM
#98
Bomber I think that the vents in rear quarters window will work in two ways
1 . when the car is stainary i.e in traffic or pitlane heat can rise through these vents.
2 when the car is moving the vacuum affect of the scoop tray underneath flowing in a sealed box trhough the rad and out boot will draw in fresh air from the window vents.
found this mk2 toooo
need to speak with these guys to get tips too
1 . when the car is stainary i.e in traffic or pitlane heat can rise through these vents.
2 when the car is moving the vacuum affect of the scoop tray underneath flowing in a sealed box trhough the rad and out boot will draw in fresh air from the window vents.
found this mk2 toooo
need to speak with these guys to get tips too
10-08-2007, 10:55 AM
#99
Testing the future
Originally Posted by m4dyeti
Bomber I think that the vents in rear quarters window will work in two ways
1 . when the car is stainary i.e in traffic or pitlane heat can rise through these vents.
1 . when the car is stainary i.e in traffic or pitlane heat can rise through these vents.
10-08-2007, 10:58 AM
#100
Originally Posted by foreigneRS
Originally Posted by m4dyeti
Bomber I think that the vents in rear quarters window will work in two ways
1 . when the car is stainary i.e in traffic or pitlane heat can rise through these vents.
1 . when the car is stainary i.e in traffic or pitlane heat can rise through these vents.
ok scrap that idea totally lol.
10-08-2007, 12:16 PM
#105
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Originally Posted by m4dyeti
Bomber I think that the vents in rear quarters window will work in two ways
1 . when the car is stainary i.e in traffic or pitlane heat can rise through these vents.
2 when the car is moving the vacuum affect of the scoop tray underneath flowing in a sealed box trhough the rad and out boot will draw in fresh air from the window vents.
found this mk2 toooo
need to speak with these guys to get tips too
1 . when the car is stainary i.e in traffic or pitlane heat can rise through these vents.
2 when the car is moving the vacuum affect of the scoop tray underneath flowing in a sealed box trhough the rad and out boot will draw in fresh air from the window vents.
found this mk2 toooo
need to speak with these guys to get tips too
that's actually the black one shown earlier, but with a respray... same cooling system from what i could see.
was looking for these photos earlier on in the thread but gave up.
10-08-2007, 06:20 PM
#108
..BS Motorsport..
nevermind the cooling issue, that escort is 
had a few more thoughts after reading all this. What if the rear quarter windows had vents in them, possibly similar to NACA style ones, but had 'scoops' covering those vents so when moving the air is forced into them rather than hopiing it flows into them. Also, with my car in particular it would make sense to get a carbon fibre intake for the roof but actually get it mounted into the sunroof area (not sure if the mk3 fiesta or mk1 in question in this thread has sunroof) and duct along the roof area into the enclosure that the rear windows are feeding. Similar to the Pat Doran fiesta but without having to chop the roof. Exiting again either in the number plate area or light cluster area (led to believe this will be at low pressure, whereas the roof must surely be higher pressure when car is travelling at 100mph+?).
I think the proper method would be as the norweigen ecos where it is brought from underneath and rear windows but for me this wouldnt be an opition, theres no way im cutting the boot floor out just to get a bit more space in the front.
had a few more thoughts after reading all this. What if the rear quarter windows had vents in them, possibly similar to NACA style ones, but had 'scoops' covering those vents so when moving the air is forced into them rather than hopiing it flows into them. Also, with my car in particular it would make sense to get a carbon fibre intake for the roof but actually get it mounted into the sunroof area (not sure if the mk3 fiesta or mk1 in question in this thread has sunroof) and duct along the roof area into the enclosure that the rear windows are feeding. Similar to the Pat Doran fiesta but without having to chop the roof. Exiting again either in the number plate area or light cluster area (led to believe this will be at low pressure, whereas the roof must surely be higher pressure when car is travelling at 100mph+?).
I think the proper method would be as the norweigen ecos where it is brought from underneath and rear windows but for me this wouldnt be an opition, theres no way im cutting the boot floor out just to get a bit more space in the front.
10-08-2007, 11:10 PM
#109
Originally Posted by StephenC
nevermind the cooling issue, that escort is
had a few more thoughts after reading all this. What if the rear quarter windows had vents in them, possibly similar to NACA style ones, but had 'scoops' covering those vents so when moving the air is forced into them rather than hopiing it flows into them. Also, with my car in particular it would make sense to get a carbon fibre intake for the roof but actually get it mounted into the sunroof area (not sure if the mk3 fiesta or mk1 in question in this thread has sunroof) and duct along the roof area into the enclosure that the rear windows are feeding. Similar to the Pat Doran fiesta but without having to chop the roof. Exiting again either in the number plate area or light cluster area (led to believe this will be at low pressure, whereas the roof must surely be higher pressure when car is travelling at 100mph+?).
I think the proper method would be as the norweigen ecos where it is brought from underneath and rear windows but for me this wouldnt be an opition, theres no way im cutting the boot floor out just to get a bit more space in the front.
had a few more thoughts after reading all this. What if the rear quarter windows had vents in them, possibly similar to NACA style ones, but had 'scoops' covering those vents so when moving the air is forced into them rather than hopiing it flows into them. Also, with my car in particular it would make sense to get a carbon fibre intake for the roof but actually get it mounted into the sunroof area (not sure if the mk3 fiesta or mk1 in question in this thread has sunroof) and duct along the roof area into the enclosure that the rear windows are feeding. Similar to the Pat Doran fiesta but without having to chop the roof. Exiting again either in the number plate area or light cluster area (led to believe this will be at low pressure, whereas the roof must surely be higher pressure when car is travelling at 100mph+?).
I think the proper method would be as the norweigen ecos where it is brought from underneath and rear windows but for me this wouldnt be an opition, theres no way im cutting the boot floor out just to get a bit more space in the front.
Ilike your ideas there....
The end point though of chopping the boot out is the only option i have at moment without drastically changing the front end. The front bumper needs to be retained and the only way to resolve the space issue would be to bring the rad and intercooler forward about 7 inches, this is currently not possible. I would need new design bumper etc, and im not 100% this would keep the turbo from boiling the rad.
In a coosie you can run a big turbo hapily as the engine sits longtidunally and the turbo is to the offside of the engine bay.
In mine with the turbo im wanting to run a gt38 the turbo will be sat right up aginst the rad, and will act like a kettle.
The sacrifical death of the boot floor is at the moment the only option for me. The car is a pure track/race car now so all luxuories are long gone.
The hole or slot as i like to call it now will be fairly minimal as its the scoop and ducting underneath that will do all the hard work.
11-08-2007, 07:25 AM
#110
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just remember, air in must equal air out, or else its just not gonna work/be efficient enough!
so 2 foot square in must have an exit of 2 foot!! in order to keep air flowing
either that or the EXIT must be bigger than the entrance to SUCK the air out, either way, entrance shouldnt be bigger than exit, or its just forced into nothing, putting stress on the exit holes and the compartment its in!
so 2 foot square in must have an exit of 2 foot!! in order to keep air flowing
either that or the EXIT must be bigger than the entrance to SUCK the air out, either way, entrance shouldnt be bigger than exit, or its just forced into nothing, putting stress on the exit holes and the compartment its in!
11-08-2007, 07:46 AM
#111
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I'm off in a moment to get cracking on making a new enclosure - i'll get some pics whilst I'm outside working on it.
I'm quietly confident i've got an idea that should work
I'm quietly confident i've got an idea that should work
11-08-2007, 08:32 AM
#112
Originally Posted by Bomber
I'm off in a moment to get cracking on making a new enclosure - i'll get some pics whilst I'm outside working on it.
I'm quietly confident i've got an idea that should work
I'm quietly confident i've got an idea that should work
Go for it mate. and post up your pics after be interested to see your ideas
Lovely day for it
11-08-2007, 08:39 AM
#113
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This is what I was thinking for my Mk1:
Cant see why is wouldn't work really.
I also thought you could have a seperate (smaller) radiator somewhere else with the fans on, so that the fans themselves don't block the airflow to the main radiator. But thats probably not really worth doing!
Cant see why is wouldn't work really.
I also thought you could have a seperate (smaller) radiator somewhere else with the fans on, so that the fans themselves don't block the airflow to the main radiator. But thats probably not really worth doing!
11-08-2007, 12:22 PM
#116
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Originally Posted by GARETH T
how much drag would that induce 
and In theory this setup works like a spoiler as if your going fast enough it'd produce downforce.Just make sure the opening in the floor isnt too large...of you will probably (at speed) blow the thing up due to the pressure inside the encloseure...even the rad backing it up will produce some serious stress at speed.
I reckon you need 1/2-2/3 the size intake on the floor as the exit out back of the car....as like said before you'd end up inneficient the second the air has to figt its way in....
I'm going to have to go for a read mounted rad in the mk1 project so very very interested in your setup Phil
keep the info flowing.Dan
11-08-2007, 01:18 PM
#117
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Right i made a template for the enclosure (again) in MDF as its easy to work with and I think i have got it sussed.
This is a view without the lids and end off so you can see the theory behind it:
A) Air enters from ducts in window
B) Air enters from scoop under car and through Axle hump cutout
C) Air passes through radiator and begins is journey outward
D) Air passes out (and is pulled out via venturi effect using a windage tray) of car through ducts in floor
With lids (still work in progress)
Thoughts?
This is a view without the lids and end off so you can see the theory behind it:
A) Air enters from ducts in window
B) Air enters from scoop under car and through Axle hump cutout
C) Air passes through radiator and begins is journey outward
D) Air passes out (and is pulled out via venturi effect using a windage tray) of car through ducts in floor
With lids (still work in progress)
Thoughts?
11-08-2007, 04:02 PM
#120
Professional Waffler
Originally Posted by SillyFezzaMk1
Originally Posted by GARETH T
how much drag would that induce
and In theory this setup works like a spoiler as if your going fast enough it'd produce downforce.Dan