Just to show that UK tuner's do have GREAT ideas...
#1
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Before I finally settled on my current engine format, I seriously investigated the route of dual charging the engine. My remit to Harvey has always been ultimate response, so a plan was hatched to bolt on a super-charger that would run on the engine from idle to 4000rpm, whereby a large turbo would take over the supply duty, to have the best of both worlds.
He figured out everything required from scratch to get it to work AND fit in the engine bay
and a suitable electronic clutch control was sourced from a Mercedes (which would be controlled by the T6 to disengage at the point the turbo was making enough boost to get a smooth switch-over), along with a K-gate to allow the switch in flow to the engine between the two and we were ready to go.
Unfortunately the program was abandoned due not being able to package a big enough supercharger in the space we had. Disappointingly the one you can see in the picture could not provide the power from idle to 4000rpm to make it worth while. All the bigger ones that could provide this, were simply too big to fit on the side of the engine
.
Stavros will now remember why I was so interested in those superchargers that had variable speed gearing on them to enable them to provide LOTS of boost low down, but able to tail off at higher rpm to stop the supercharger from exploding
. Unfortunately, this Russion technology doesn't seem to have filtered to the after-market even now
.
It would have had the best of both worlds - response and outright power, without the parasitic loss of constantly connected supercharger, which would have disengaged by 3500-4000rpm. Just thought peeps might like to see that things do go on behind the scenes
.
He figured out everything required from scratch to get it to work AND fit in the engine bay
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/shocked.gif)
Unfortunately the program was abandoned due not being able to package a big enough supercharger in the space we had. Disappointingly the one you can see in the picture could not provide the power from idle to 4000rpm to make it worth while. All the bigger ones that could provide this, were simply too big to fit on the side of the engine
![Sad](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
Stavros will now remember why I was so interested in those superchargers that had variable speed gearing on them to enable them to provide LOTS of boost low down, but able to tail off at higher rpm to stop the supercharger from exploding
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
![Grin](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
![Sad](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
It would have had the best of both worlds - response and outright power, without the parasitic loss of constantly connected supercharger, which would have disengaged by 3500-4000rpm. Just thought peeps might like to see that things do go on behind the scenes
![Wink](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
![](https://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/MikeR/MVC-001F.jpg)
#4
DEYTUKURJERBS
![Default](https://passionford.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif)
still dont think the k-gate and disengaging it is a good idea at all all things considered, esp the switchover point.
hasnt this already been done on a cossie once before (was in CCC) and plenty other cars? wouldnt call it a great idea like he just invented it or anything, lol.
v.cool tho
hasnt this already been done on a cossie once before (was in CCC) and plenty other cars? wouldnt call it a great idea like he just invented it or anything, lol.
v.cool tho
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
#7
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Is there no sprag clutches avaliable that would disengage themselfs after say 4250 rpm etc? As a lot of aircraft components such as air driven starter motors are constantly driven after they have started the main engine, but over thier start speed the centrifugal clutch disengages and allows the drive to freewheel
.
![](http://www.epilogics.com/images/figure2.gif)
Or how about an electronic viscous drive? the angle of the plates are controlled to vary the drive, so you could have full drive at low RPM, and a quick but progressive tail off over the revs you want? Sure they use this in active diffs etc, and again they are used on aircraft (called CSDU's, constant speed drive units) to drive items that require a constant speed, such as engine driven generators, hydrulic pumps etc
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
![](http://www.epilogics.com/images/figure2.gif)
Or how about an electronic viscous drive? the angle of the plates are controlled to vary the drive, so you could have full drive at low RPM, and a quick but progressive tail off over the revs you want? Sure they use this in active diffs etc, and again they are used on aircraft (called CSDU's, constant speed drive units) to drive items that require a constant speed, such as engine driven generators, hydrulic pumps etc
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
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#8
![Default](https://passionford.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by Stavros
still dont think the k-gate and disengaging it is a good idea at all all things considered, esp the switchover point.
hasnt this already been done on a cossie once before (was in CCC) and plenty other cars? wouldnt call it a great idea like he just invented it or anything, lol.
v.cool tho![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
hasnt this already been done on a cossie once before (was in CCC) and plenty other cars? wouldnt call it a great idea like he just invented it or anything, lol.
v.cool tho
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
The T6 could have handled the switch-over no problem, and Harvey was confident enough in the K-gate.
I didn't say he invented it, as the idea has been around ever since the internal combustion engine
![Raz](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
![Grin](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
#9
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Originally Posted by Stavros
still dont think the k-gate and disengaging it is a good idea at all all things considered, esp the switchover point.
hasnt this already been done on a cossie once before (was in CCC) and plenty other cars? wouldnt call it a great idea like he just invented it or anything, lol.
v.cool tho![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
hasnt this already been done on a cossie once before (was in CCC) and plenty other cars? wouldnt call it a great idea like he just invented it or anything, lol.
v.cool tho
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
If I do, I was planning on just blowing THROUGH the charger not even trying to swap over, but the concept of de-clutching it is a good one I reckon.
The M62 charger on mercs was the one I was looking at too (is that the same one mike?) as it has a very simple to operate clutch as standard (its literally just an on/off witch)
#10
![Default](https://passionford.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by RWD_cossie_wil
Is there no sprag clutches avaliable that would disengage themselfs after say 4250 rpm etc? As a lot of aircraft components such as air driven starter motors are constantly driven after they have started the main engine, but over thier start speed the centrifugal clutch disengages and allows the drive to freewheel
.
![](http://www.epilogics.com/images/figure2.gif)
Or how about an electronic viscous drive? the angle of the plates are controlled to vary the drive, so you could have full drive at low RPM, and a quick but progressive tail off over the revs you want? Sure they use this in active diffs etc, and again they are used on aircraft (called CSDU's, constant speed drive units) to drive items that require a constant speed, such as engine driven generators, hydrulic pumps etc![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
![](http://www.epilogics.com/images/figure2.gif)
Or how about an electronic viscous drive? the angle of the plates are controlled to vary the drive, so you could have full drive at low RPM, and a quick but progressive tail off over the revs you want? Sure they use this in active diffs etc, and again they are used on aircraft (called CSDU's, constant speed drive units) to drive items that require a constant speed, such as engine driven generators, hydrulic pumps etc
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
![Raz](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
#11
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Originally Posted by Stavros
still dont think the k-gate and disengaging it is a good idea at all all things considered, esp the switchover point.
hasnt this already been done on a cossie once before (was in CCC) and plenty other cars? wouldnt call it a great idea like he just invented it or anything, lol.
v.cool tho![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
hasnt this already been done on a cossie once before (was in CCC) and plenty other cars? wouldnt call it a great idea like he just invented it or anything, lol.
v.cool tho
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
The T6 could have handled the switch-over no problem, and Harvey was confident enough in the K-gate.
I didn't say he invented it, as the idea has been around ever since the internal combustion engine
![Raz](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
![Grin](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
I assume if I phone him up to ask about it, I will get told to get fucked cause he doesnt give away research secrets, and the same from you?
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
#13
DEYTUKURJERBS
![Default](https://passionford.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif)
no it hasnt been around since the internal combustion engine ![Raz](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
first supercharger design came about 20years after that, and first turbo design came 30years after![Raz](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
and tho i dunno when i bet the first combined one was ever further, way way further along![Raz](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
the switch over problem isnt a mapping issue, its a "suddenly something that was supplying over 250lbft suddently produces nothing" problem.
![Raz](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
first supercharger design came about 20years after that, and first turbo design came 30years after
![Raz](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
and tho i dunno when i bet the first combined one was ever further, way way further along
![Raz](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
the switch over problem isnt a mapping issue, its a "suddenly something that was supplying over 250lbft suddently produces nothing" problem.
#15
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Originally Posted by Mike Rainbird
Before I finally settled on my current engine format, I seriously investigated the route of dual charging the engine. My remit to Harvey has always been ultimate response, so a plan was hatched to bolt on a super-charger that would run on the engine from idle to 4000rpm, whereby a large turbo would take over the supply duty, to have the best of both worlds.
He figured out everything required from scratch to get it to work AND fit in the engine bay
and a suitable electronic clutch control was sourced from a Mercedes (which would be controlled by the T6 to disengage at the point the turbo was making enough boost to get a smooth switch-over), along with a K-gate to allow the switch in flow to the engine between the two and we were ready to go.
Unfortunately the program was abandoned due not being able to package a big enough supercharger in the space we had. Disappointingly the one you can see in the picture could not provide the power from idle to 4000rpm to make it worth while. All the bigger ones that could provide this, were simply too big to fit on the side of the engine
.
Stavros will now remember why I was so interested in those superchargers that had variable speed gearing on them to enable them to provide LOTS of boost low down, but able to tail off at higher rpm to stop the supercharger from exploding
. Unfortunately, this Russion technology doesn't seem to have filtered to the after-market even now
.
It would have had the best of both worlds - response and outright power, without the parasitic loss of constantly connected supercharger, which would have disengaged by 3500-4000rpm. Just thought peeps might like to see that things do go on behind the scenes
.
![](https://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/MikeR/MVC-001F.jpg)
He figured out everything required from scratch to get it to work AND fit in the engine bay
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/shocked.gif)
Unfortunately the program was abandoned due not being able to package a big enough supercharger in the space we had. Disappointingly the one you can see in the picture could not provide the power from idle to 4000rpm to make it worth while. All the bigger ones that could provide this, were simply too big to fit on the side of the engine
![Sad](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
Stavros will now remember why I was so interested in those superchargers that had variable speed gearing on them to enable them to provide LOTS of boost low down, but able to tail off at higher rpm to stop the supercharger from exploding
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
![Grin](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif)
![Sad](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif)
It would have had the best of both worlds - response and outright power, without the parasitic loss of constantly connected supercharger, which would have disengaged by 3500-4000rpm. Just thought peeps might like to see that things do go on behind the scenes
![Wink](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
![](https://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/MikeR/MVC-001F.jpg)
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
#17
DEYTUKURJERBS
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just compound charge it chip, at least thats proven to work properly, and a damn sight less complex.
need a bigger intercooler than usual to cope with the charge temps, and obv the losses from running the charger is always apparent, but people seem to forget having a tiny exhaust housing for half decent spool saps more power than that, and thats something you can do without on tihs setup, infact its not uncommon for boost to always be higher than pre turbo back pressure, good for power and also making the engine suprisingly det resistant.
thats what id do anyhow.
hell, i had all the bits to do it, then i remembered "why fuck about trying to make a small engine act like a big one, im not building the car to any rules, i should just buy the big one and stop wasting money"
need a bigger intercooler than usual to cope with the charge temps, and obv the losses from running the charger is always apparent, but people seem to forget having a tiny exhaust housing for half decent spool saps more power than that, and thats something you can do without on tihs setup, infact its not uncommon for boost to always be higher than pre turbo back pressure, good for power and also making the engine suprisingly det resistant.
thats what id do anyhow.
hell, i had all the bits to do it, then i remembered "why fuck about trying to make a small engine act like a big one, im not building the car to any rules, i should just buy the big one and stop wasting money"
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
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Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Steve, TBH I would probably be better off just fitting the 42R I have lieing around, and then use nitrous as antilag, its actually a far better solution than a supercharger really!
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#21
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Originally Posted by RWD_cossie_wil
Originally Posted by Chip-3Door
Steve, TBH I would probably be better off just fitting the 42R I have lieing around, and then use nitrous as antilag, its actually a far better solution than a supercharger really!
![Confused](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif)
You would spool it up inside of 2 seconds on 100bhp jets im positive.
So it would cost hardly anything, especially as in "normal driving" you wouldnt even bother to use the nitrous, you would just accept the lag.
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How about a small turbo sat on its own, with its own fuel injector in a combustion pipe between the compressor and turbine?
- Constant boost, fed into the other turbo or just into the intake via the I/cooler etc, no need for a turbo in the exhaust blocking things up then
- bit noisy and hot and probably highly dangerous, but how cool would a constant 30psi with NO lag and no exhaust restriction? Just have a CO2 starter bottle to spin it up before it self sustains
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
![Smokin](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_smokin.gif)
#27
Professional Waffler
![Default](https://passionford.com/forum/images/icons/icon1.gif)
Originally Posted by RWD_cossie_wil
How about a small turbo sat on its own, with its own fuel injector in a combustion pipe between the compressor and turbine?
- Constant boost, fed into the other turbo or just into the intake via the I/cooler etc, no need for a turbo in the exhaust blocking things up then
- bit noisy and hot and probably highly dangerous, but how cool would a constant 30psi with NO lag and no exhaust restriction? Just have a CO2 starter bottle to spin it up before it self sustains ![Smokin](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_smokin.gif)
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
![Smokin](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_smokin.gif)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=_LIQsXsNvTg
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
#28
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Originally Posted by Stavros
how about a small nuclear ractor in the boot and a pack of wild horses tied to the front towing eye
![SHTF](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/shtf.gif)
#31
DEYTUKURJERBS
#36
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Originally Posted by L8 ECU
Mike, how about ................
You change the thread title to:
"Just to show that UK tuner's try to COPY great ideas..."
You change the thread title to:
"Just to show that UK tuner's try to COPY great ideas..."
Yes there are just hundreds of supoercharged / turboed Cossies running around that have solved all the issues associated with this set up
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
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![Wink](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
![007](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bond.gif)
#37
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Originally Posted by GARETH T
i dont see the point of it mike,,, you would only use the supercharger in 1st gear if your gear ratios are correct for the engine
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
In the end I compromised with a reasonably large turbo, the Mountune roller-barrells and shortening the gearing.
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Nice if it can be acheived but the cossie bay is tight for space and good on
you for having a go at something different.
Nitrous would be easier and cheaper IMO, but not as bling I suppose
However as for the title of this thread.....
Just to show that UK tuner's do have GREAT ideas...
It wasnt Harveys idea in the first place![007](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bond.gif)
Thats no lie either
you for having a go at something different.
![Top](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile011.gif)
Nitrous would be easier and cheaper IMO, but not as bling I suppose
![Wink](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif)
However as for the title of this thread.....
Just to show that UK tuner's do have GREAT ideas...
It wasnt Harveys idea in the first place
![007](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bond.gif)
Thats no lie either
![Surprised](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/bigcry.gif)
![Pthbbbb](https://passionford.com/forum/images/smilies/smile045.gif)