SteveT

Iraq - what a fuck up - it really makes me mad... and IMO, its really all our (UK/USA) fault.

Almost daily we hear of car bombings and suicide bombings in Iraq. It is common to hear of 30 or 40 people being killed every day. And it is more frequently the different Iraqi groups fighting amongst themselves... Shia Vs Sunni.

Today almost 200 people have been killed in Baghdad alone. (BBC link).

Is Iraq now in a state of Civil War...?
This has all happened because of the ill planned, unpopular (and some would say illegal) invasion of Iraq, on the pretence of there being the Weapons Of Mass Destruction (WMDs) there.

The removal of Saddam Hussein from power was an ill-conceived plan by the Americans to replace him with a puppet regime with closer ties to the US. This has failed, and it is quite apparent that the post invasion plans were poor and naive, if they even did make plans at all (sure they made plans for oil exports - that's certainly happening now!). We have totally failed the Iraqi people.

But what can we do now?
We have gone in, fucked up, dug ourselves into a great big hole. How can we exit Iraq? We could just leave, but then it would be full-scale civil war, and anyway, the Americans need to ensure that the oil continues to flow... Do we (and the US) have a duty to try and fix the mess that we have created. And it we stay, what can we actually do now? How long do we stay for? What cost (financially and casualties) can we accept?
It's an embarrassment for Great Britain and Tony Blair should ultimately be held responsible IMO.


Whats your thoughts ppl?

steve

Editted to update todays casualty figures.

Graham S1

I think I'll keep schtum for now.

focusv8

There were far more people being killed on a daily basic under Saddam's rule than there are at the moment.

.

Rhys

I dont think, its true civil war though can lead down that path. Trouble is what i read most Iraqis want to get on with there lives and the extremists are trying to start a war etc.

I feel so sorry for the avg Iraqi who just want to get on with their lives, but it seems to be the battle field for all the extremist to have a go at the Americans and British using Iraq as a hiding area.

The invastion was a very ill concived plan! While i support the removal of Saddam i feel the construction/iraq after Saddam was and after thought.

ivorbiggun

Thank you for that well rehearsed piece of nonsense from Foxnews......

ivorbiggun

Amazing anyone who doesn't want a foreign power driving tanks up and down their streets is an Extremist/lets hope the French don't reignite some of
Mon Bonapartes ideas because I might become an extremist.

And while we're all about it how many of you have called for the military removal of Robert Mugabe?

Rhys

Wasnt the Iraqi people actually glad of the removal of Saddam? i think you will find most are happy at that!!! Just the situation has got so bad now due to no action plan for what happens after thats where it all got messed up. And yes im sorry it mainly is extremists causing the problems. Most people just want to rebuild their lives in Iraq, sooner US and British leave the better imo.

As for Zimbabwe yes i totally agree he should be removed! but i think it will never happen now due to Iraq imo and i think Iraq has harmed our ability/repuation to take on such people as Muwgabe (sp) unfortunatly.

AS for calling for it, who is on a car forum?

Physio

Exactly!

Why would the uk/usa be interested in that country? There isnt anything of value there

Fookin hypocrites!

Rhys

Can you tell im bored and having a break from revision?

I will counter the argument even if its not my own opinion

Zimbawe has not affect on any out side countries and is only causing itself to emplode! The cause for Iraq be it right or not was that Saddam while a brutal dictator was also a cause for political stability in the region.

Also dont forget the weapon claims (which now shown to be false).

imo as said i would love to get shoot of Muegabe and sort Sudan out etc. etc theres a big list of countries..


Right i will be VERY controversial here, but maybe the african countries like Zimbabwe where better of as part of the UK? but i digress and not for this topic as its about Iraq. I shouldnt be throwing different variables into equastion.

ivorbiggun

Well having visited many times and still having friends there I've yet to
see or hear that anyone was bothered about their leader any more than
if you ask the majority of Brits about TB most Now want rid of him (very different in 97).

As for being on a car forum we've all decided to chip in here but last time
I looked apart from Motion Lotion Iraq makes bugger all difference to the running of any of my cars.

Rhys

true!

it is a sad situation in Iraq, and i just dont know what the option is now! We cant exactley pull out, and staying there could be causing a problem. Proper mess. Glad im not the one who got to sort it out.

SteveT

I doubt that.

I don't know the facts about how many ppl died under Saddam's rule (1979-2003 - Yes, it was a lot though), but lets not forget that when he was in power in Iraq, we were not seeing innocent people being killed by suicide bombings, car bombings in the centre of Baghdad on a daily basis!

The US coalition has been in Iraq since 2003, 4 years. In that time we don't know how exactly many civilians have been killed as the result of invasion and subsequent internal conflicts. BUT What we do know, is that a minimum of 63,000 civilians (Iraq Body Count, minium figure, from confirmed reports in the media) have been killed and other estimates suggesting 655,000+ civi's killed. (Lancet Medical Journal report, july 2006).

(LANCET QUOTE: Pre-invasion mortality rates were 5ˇ5 per 1000 people per year (95% CI 4ˇ3–7ˇ1), compared with 13ˇ3 per 1000 people per year (10ˇ9–16ˇ1) in the 40 months post-invasion. We estimate that as of July, 2006, there have been 654 965 (392 979–942 636) excess Iraqi deaths as a consequence of the war.

steve

Lee Reynolds

Suicide bombings, car bombing this and that bombings and deaths ARE ALL FAR BETTER then being killed by an evil dictator. Yes its in a state, but at least the people have got some sort of freedom and not being forced to live how one person and his regime say they have to...

Lee Reynolds

Make me laugh though these posts...People seem to think war is a new thing. Its happened since time began and will continue to happen for all time man is alive....get over it.

Since when has war been nice? What reasons would validate a war? What does a country have to be/have to go to war on them?

ivorbiggun

Goodness me Lee where were you when Kofi Anan retired?

Fastmaul

Did the US and the puppets it brought in with them Feck up , Sure (We were still out looking for someone to blame for 9-11) Saddam was an easy target, ruthless dictator, supposdly had WMD and fueld by what just happend, most Yanks were blinded with Bush's false claims (I know I was!) I was all for it, taking out Saddam then moving on to his fellow terrorist but, that never happend did it. Now right now, you'll find there are so many people here in the USA (even if you don't believe it) that are Against the War in Iraq!
Going back to Civil War in Iraq.. What this war has fueled is just for it to happen sooner than later. Look at all the extremist on either side. IF they were smart they would let that government build itself up so the yanks and the armies who are helping them leave. Why? this way the underground terrorist can then group up and take over. That won't happen though, they're too stupid besides, show me a "peaceful" time in the Middle East when they weren't fighting and killing eachother.

Big G

Fastmaul hit the nail on the head,

Old Georgie Bush was smarting after being done over by a guy in a cave, He couldn't find him so in a tantrum looked at who he could vent his anger on, Saddam was there sitting pretty amid false claims, In a country that Bushy hoped he could conquer for his own gain,
OIL.

America fucked up, Britain is a haemorroid of America.

monkey nutz

You've got to look long term, and it's got fuck all to do with Bush and his cronies, they are just merely puppets for the money men in charge.

Israel and oil were the ONLY reasons we went into Iraq.

Israel will be the ONLY reason we go into Iran, I won't bore you with the details, but I will say this; if war makes sure I still have food in the fridge, fuel for my car and, in general, keeps my life together, then so be it.

Like it or not these regimes will be a direct threat to us in the future; the yanks are only ensuring their security. If they don't sort this shit out now, 50 years down the line (Once the likes of China and India are at equal strength) these things will not be so easy.

GTechR

I think it's even more simple than that, after 9/11, Bush saw an oppertunity to finish the job his daddy should have done, when th whole world was backing him...

Only he fukked up big style, assuming the iraqis would hail him as freedom giving hero, they did what anyone in an occupied country would do, they fought back. It's just such a shame that Our lads and the Yank Soldiers are out there taking the brunt of Bushes incompitence.

Lee Reynolds

The iraqis hardly fought back mate,,,his regime had a go but sadam and his men were crumbled in a matter of weeks. The iraqis arent the ones who are car bombing etc, its extremists who are in there doing this to make sure US and UK fail with this what should have been a straight forward mission.,

I do think tho that bush is a bit fucked up But as are 90% of americans....nation of idiots. Anyone see that cunt who castle interviewed on gmtv ???? castle '' so are you going to tighten laws on guns after the school shooting??'' Fucked up american'' No we are going to give the teachers guns '' LMFAO

monkey nutz

Which always makes me laugh at the M.O.D advertising the Armed forces as an alternative 'career choice' - no it's not - yes, they may very well teach you to weld or drive a bloody HGV, but there's no escaping the horrible truth that you're really being paid to go and get shot at.

Why are all these parents so surprised (and on the news) when their son/daughter ends up in the middle of a war-zone?

Rhys

Agree about that. I hate it when you got family moan they have been sent to Afganistan or IRaq or where ever. I always think what the hell did they think they were going to do in the army. Have tea with the Queen?

GTechR

Lee I agree to a degree, but I also think that while to start with it was the extremists, now a LOT of Iraqi's have joined these groups, that had we NOT invaded would never have, and the reason is cuz the want the us ( Yanks/UK?whoever else) out of there country.

Maybe i'm going off at a tangent, but in WW2, I wonder if the Normal everyday Germans called the french resistance 'Extremests'?

Rhys

Different, they were getting the invaders out who was opressing them. Now they are groups fighting another. And US and UK are not opressing the people.

Lee Reynolds

I see where your coming from, but i believe a lot of the bombings are al queda and iranian.

No one will ever really know the ins and outs of this war. All im bothered about is wether me and my family are safe,,and at the moment we are (ish lol)

SteveT

Some good points and discussion

Agree with Lee here - I think that the initial situation in Iraq after the US led invasion, did attract the extremists into the country. Al Qaeda etc. These ppl would not have been tolerated with Saddam in control - They would probably have been a threat to him.

Saddam kept order because he had absolute power and he knew the Iraqi people and how to control them. The various religeous groups got one with each other because they had to, they knew the punishment if they stepped out of line.
Matt J - Yes, maybe Saddam should have been put back in charge, under very close watch obviously - He was coming up to 70 years old, how much longer would he have been around anyway?

steve

Fastmaul

Wow, you get around! I live in the US (where there are LOADS of your countrymen/women visiting everyday) and I STILL haven't meet 90% of all Americans! Please tell me how you did it? And when have we meet? When were you here in they NYC/NJ area?

LOL Nation of Idiots... at least we didn't get punk'd by Iran right in front of your armed forces leaders
Anyone selling any good Captured stories??

Of course Saddam knew how to keep control of the people.. he killed them.
That's the main difference between our armed forces and Saddams.. we have to try to control ourselves and go by a code of conduct, they didn't. I thnk people seem to forget that. He killed when and if he pleased and Steve he may have been coming up to 70 but did you forget about his sons who were probably worse than he was?? No end there for a long time.

homer j

iTrader: (1)

right i'm gonna try my best not to lose it here. myself and many colleagues are presently serving in Iraq (Basrah to be precise). imo we have a duty as one of the leading world powers to give aid to other countries people when in need. the people of Iraq for the vast majority were desperately in need of our help due to not doing the job correctly in 1991. it is a very small minority of the population who are still loyal to the old regime who are responsible for the suicide attacks against the rest of the population and the multi national forces whose incredably difficult job it is to attempt to enforce law and order in an attempt to restore peace and stability to the country. if we as a nation were to abandon these attempts and simply pull out many more innocent civilians would suffer as a result. just as bad in my opinion, it would negate the sacrifice that many of our country men and women have made. that in my opinion is totally unacceptable and anyone who says otherwise should try working in the conditions we endure out here. then try saying what we're doing is useless and pointless. we face constant rocket and mortar attack, the patrols and bases in the city constantly come under small arms, sniper, and anti tank fire, not to mention the ied's that are a constant threat to mobile units. as far as i'm concerned civilians in the UK and the USA are shown purely what the press show. you don't see the look of shear joy and happiness on the faces of the local Iraqis who we work alongside. whenever we encounter the population of the city of Basrah and the surrounding towns we are warmly recieved by people who are greatful for our presence. now tell me that what we are doing is wrong and we should leave them here to sort themselves out. i will be returning to the UK in july and i will promptly volunteer for another tour of duty out here because i firmly believe in the task at hand and the necessity to continue through with it till the mission reaches a successful end. i have had many arguements with people who protest against our presence and have been called all manner of disgusting things including "baby killer" and "murderer". so i would say this to you all. the only reason you hear so much of what goes on out here is because it's the newest of our operational deployments. even Afghanistan has taken a back seat in recent years. how many people hear of what happens on a much larger scale in South American countries or African countries? and who can forget Sri lanka? the only reason this isn't heard of is because British personnel are not involved. so to anyone who wants to rant and rave about how the government is wrong and what it's done is illegal then GET A FUCKING GRIP! all we are doing is cleaning up the mess left from 1991. so stop bitching and pissing and think about the poor souls who don't have the abillity to stand up for themselves and need us to do it for them. so one last thing. for anyone who reads this and doesn't like what i have said then you can poke it because as far as i'm concerned you don't deserve to hold a British passport.

DazS1Turbo

Amen to that

Well Said

homer j

iTrader: (1)

cheers fella

Graham S1

Are we to blame for putting him in power in the first place?

homer j

iTrader: (1)

ahh someone who knows a bit of history. very true. we did put him i place in the first instance. therefore we have a duty to sort things out. blame is inconsequential at the moment. in my mind there is a blame culture popping up in the UK and it's all to easy for people to place blame without sorting out the problem. we need to concentrate on sorting out the problems in Iraq first. then we can deal with any issues of blame or otherwise.

Graham S1

Nah, I know shit mate, I'm just a "conspiracy" theorist... according to most on here anyway...

Do you think we would have gone in to sort the mess if it wasn't for 9/11? Or WMD, or whatever the reason? (cue a hundred flame posts). Why didn't we go back in, in say 95?

Rhys

Totally true mate. I just wish this shit was sorted out around the first Gulf war. It was perthtic to think it wasnt In fact i think Thatcher was up for going in or helping the people who at the time start to rise up agianst Saddam as they thought Western support was iminant. But Bush senior wanted a halt.

monkey nutz

No conspiracy there, just fact; we backed Iraq against Iran in the '80s.

Jim Galbally

STOP READING THE SUN

PastyKing

lets sort our own mess and our own country out.
cant we get the hint that were not really welcomed there, let them rebuild their country alone. you cant help people who dont want it and besides theres trouble everywhere in the world but we dont get involved in that?
all or nothing surely?

homer j

iTrader: (1)

did you not read/understand what i said? the vast majority of Iraqis do want our presence and our help. the minority you see on the news in places like fallujah protesting about our presence are supporters of the old ba'ath party regime and as such want us out so they can restore themselves to power. sorry but in democracy majority rules and thats asfact.

agreed we have our own problems and these do need sorting. and if i'm honest i do agree with the sentiment that we need to help ourselves first. however, this is beginning to be done to an extent. we have no chance of becoming unstable like Iraq is. therefore we can afford to take our time sorting out our own problems. how would you feel if a different religious group came into you town from the next over and blew up your friends and family just because you were a bit stricter in your devotion to your way of life?