markk

iTrader: (2)

i need cash not cars !!

only 4th , shit bastard

you need a test driver to set it up for you, i did croft once on a gravel setup, handled very surprising to a lot of people

Micky The Finn

i did croft once as well.in the snow,and shocked even myself how fast i was.

Micky The Finn

but mike,i would have something very different then,is there a reserves list for me and mr dodgey gearbox?

markk

iTrader: (2)

no disrespect meant here mike, but modded standard parts just dont compare, having experianced both

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

I didn't say I was fast, I just said I liked it .

NUTS RuS

iTrader: (35)

Si B do me a favour mate, when you get your car back on the road take it out for a drive then go back home and disconnect 1 side of the ARB and take it back down the same road.

Your car being set up as a standard car is already under compression, so adding a compression strut kit will in effect only give you independant suspension and fixed adjustable castor. (or non adjustable castor if you compare it to the flexible springyness of the ARB).

If you feel you would like stiffer springs then like you say they are cheap enough to buy, but please dont go too stiff as with fully independant suspension on a road car you need a little lean on cornering to help give the road tyres the grip. Set it too hard and all it will just do is skate across the road in an understeering arse twitching moment.

People like Tim & Ian and other rally guys are massively overqualified in this subject and dont think twice of having a full package with a minimum of £200 rubber on each corner to help get the grip.

And its difficult to say this without belittling but a road car with £80 tyres on will indeed notice a massive improvement under braking and cornering, but it will not save you the extra 2 seconds per lap that these lads will have with their WRC stuff.

Start somewhere and use it as a base point.

I have spent hours and hours trackside with both rally cars and racing cars, the number of times the driver has come in (with stiff suspension) on a damp or wet day and asked us to disconnect the ARB (front or rear) or reduce its stiffness if bladed to make the car turn in, or handle better sometimes really does make you realise why the propper cars had driver adjustable stuff.

Whilst it is very interesting to read all the input on this thread from qualified people, it also needs bringing back down into road car level to someone who is making first steps on the ladder

Do it, try it and report back please. If you need help ring the guy who made your road car kit, you have his number and he is more than willing to offer further advice and support. Buy the same kit from other trade outlets and most will just ask for an order number, a credit card number and a postal address and thats it. I know for a fact that well in excess of 500 of these type of kits have been sold over the years to people like you. If they were no good and needed massive mods they wouldnt still be being made and used.

I wonder if Tims Sunbeam will have WRC parts on it, and if not will he refuse to drive it ??

Tony Ryan

Indeed WE are both correct these parts when fitted ARE for fine tuning , what you fail to say tho is that by just bolting bits onto your shopping car
youre not going to get any improvement at all .A badly matched kit will be worse than not having one at all .
I actually use these parts, ive spent time and effort choosing the bits that
go together and testing agianst the stopwatch in a controlled environment , it does make me angry when a thread based on just bolting expensive bits on becomes a discussion about whats best when you have no experience of why your even doing it ! A std car is a well sorted track car with just a few tweeks and a decent set of dampers , ticking the boxes on your wish list of GpA parts wont make you any quicker unless youre prepared to go extensive testing ! Maybe i am on crack for trying to add to these pointless discussions , but when your out of context quotes make it look like i haven't a clue its usually because i cant be fkin arsed to waste my time printing essays that no-one will take notice off !

Ryan

ian, just to let you know i got the bits you sent yesterday

foook me those rosejoints are HUUUUGE!

Si B

iTrader: (59)

Thanks for taking the time to write all that Tony.

IF (big if!) my car fires up this weekend I will indeed do the road test you have suggested - bar undone and done up and feedback exactly what I find.

I am new to all this, but this post has been a very good read, and if I can translate any of it into an improvement on my car it will be worth it.

I'll keep you posted!
Si

GARETH T

tim is your in gravel spec in the photos?

ian can i have the escort if your playing about with the talbot?

CozzyBrom

are them 909 comp strut brackets rare then as i have 2 pairs with rap around brackets

Micky The Finn

not rare at all,i think every man and his dog used to make them,ive a few sets here.

CozzyBrom

i was takin the piss tim

just wonderd why no body else wants to go to the effort of getting am and weldin a captive nut into the chassie leg thats all instead of using the comp brake set up
i got the ford stamped ones aswell

CozzyBrom

ps somebody resize my sig pic plz
before diva bans me

Micky The Finn

probly due to under education as is so often the case,if someone looks at comp brake and no nothing else they will buy them,just because some one tells them they are group A doesnt make them 909 group A,
like i metioned earlier,ford spent millions developing these cars and spent years on r+d.(not the gearbox company either).

GARETH T

i believe that a modded part and a propper group a set-uo (just talking bottom arm-compression strut) will work in EXACTLY the same way! there is no difference geometry wise between them if set-up the same!

group A cars isnt that far advanced as far as suspension goes, this was capped by the group A ruling with regards pickup points! there dampers are a million times better than 99% of the people on here though

Micky The Finn

gareth a group A compresiion strut is completly different to one to fit standard tca's,work very different and fit very different,

and your group A suspension comment is very misinformed,pick up points?

GARETH T

they do fit very differenty, but they dont work any differently

i mean where suspension units are mounted to the chassis, these has to be within limits of the standard cars

Micky The Finn

so why did boreham do this then?
and why use mag arms on the rear then wrc lateral links?
jack a standard car up and the wheel follows a radious angle in towards the centre line of the car,same as cornering hard or hitting a bump,the tyre contact patch changes massivley,best example is a lowerd 3 door,but a group A set up does not do this,the wheels still go up vertically keeping the trye foot print consistant.

Micky The Finn

dont work any differently,who told you that?

GARETH T

because all your above points are within the rules of standard pickup points!

these rules was relaxed slightly for world rally cars, hence the new lateral link suspension

im sure if they was allowed they would of run a un-equal length double wisebone on the back

cracking car though tim

markk

iTrader: (2)

i dont even need to comment here , i think tims already done that for me, gareth trust me they are worlds apart if you have time to look/work with them and even drive with them on you will know what i mean, my next car will be built/bought with alot of the works parts the differance is worth it, and because ive had the experiance now (when mine was built i didnt have the experiance hence modded std parts) i know the differance

Anonymous

Tim...i am on your thoughts how the fuck can people diss Grp A or wrc spec ...the money spent developing these is mind boggling....bit like when Deano said a 916sp is the same as the 916bp bar the single seat


...one thing shocked me here...martin h backing out of a race..i never thought i'd see that ...unless he realises secrectly a proper grp a car is in a different league to a home made car

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Tony,
I must have misinterpreted what you were trying to say, as I actually agree with you on this point. I also believe that it is possible to make a relatively standard suspended car to handle superbly without resorting to bolting expensive Grp A / WRC parts on to a car . In fact, I believe my car is proof of that . At the moment, it has VERY basic, but well thought out changes made to the suspension (through years of experimenting), and I believe it to be a very easy car to drive and drive fast .

However, my car is set up for how I like it to handle and I feel that I can peddle it around a track reasonably handily, yet Harvey HATES the way my car handles, so your comment about NOT tuning a car to suit a driving style, I thought was pretty inaccurate. Everything else you have said, I 100% agree with . Just because it is a particular expensive part, doesn't mean it will handle well. For example, Harvey had the FINA Grp A car (which was supposed to have been £250k new), and it had top of the range EVERYTHING on it, but it still didn't handle perfectly. In fact Harvey and Ahmed had to change quite a few things to get it to perform how you would expect it to, so I believe this also proves that just because something WAS top of the range in it's day, that it doesn't mean that there wasn't / isn't room for improvements to be made. You have to remember that Ford never let the Escort spend more than a year with any one team, so development was hampered by this, as everyone was starting from scratch each year and it was never fully developed to it's true potential. So this means that even a Grp A car can be DRASTICALLLY improved on, despite what people may think .

GARETH T

i dont think anyone has diss a propper group a car, i just questioned WHY have they done it!

foreigneRS

good thread.

why all the fuss about the drop links not being vertical? it just changes the leverage ratio so that a thicker bar is needed to get the same torsional stiffness as if the links were vertical (and mounted at the same point on the tca)

i agree with what i think gareth is trying to say - the principles of action of a proper grp a ARB (or other component) are no different to a comp brake (or rally design or whoever) ARB. the fine details of them may give important differences in the control of the suspension - but the PRINCIPLE is the same.

for example - in the case of a compression strut, it's principle of action is to prevent fore and aft movement of the hub. the length, stiffness, joint, mounting points etc will all have an influence over how it does that job, so one may be 'better' than another (or may just suit a different driver/circuit/surface/weather than another).

GARETH T

ahh someone with sense