Adam_BlackRS

Been looking at the resto/project section and the "Lets see ya track cars" post and its really got me thinking about another track car....

But what makes a good track car cause ANY car can be a track car.

FWD or RWD or 4x4 ???
N/A or Turbo'd ???
Big CC or Revvy low CC ???
Big car or Small car ???

Etc, etc, etc.... Idea's ??

The ones i've been thinking about are... (RWD) BMW E36 M3, (FWD) Honda Civic Mk2/3 with CTR engine and (4x4) Focus Cossie A1 conversion.

big_wig_074

depends on how you drive,and what your preference is,some people can throw rwd cars about,others cant.i can thrash the tits off a fwd car all day long so i reckon id be quicker in a fwd car than a rwd car and id have more confidence too. and the same is true of na or turbo,it depends on your preference,you have to feel comfortable with a car to be quick and most importantly enjoy driving it.

Adam_BlackRS

Me personally.... i would prefer handling over power. You get more control in a RWD car over a FWD car but FWD are bloody fun.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

build a locost

big_wig_074

ok,well from that statement i would say you'd like the e36 m3,my e36 325 is an awesome handling machine,very stable and controlled

Adam_BlackRS

Chip, whats a locost ??

Big wig, I already have a E36 325 and i have thought many times about turning it into a track car

big_wig_074

adam,sweet! strip it,fit a bucket,e46 330 brakes (325mm), a few engine mods (viper2 chip,air filter,exhaust,us spec m3 cams and big bore tb),or a 3 litre m3 engine,lower the suspension a bit and get some good tyres and youre away!

tiny

Not alot

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Cheap homemade version of a lotus 7 type car bascially mate (pikey caterham basically)

gingeRS

i would go for something like an mk1 mx-5.

cage it and do the track days with the roof down, visibilty would be brilliant, especially as whenever i do track days i always bang my head on the door, roof lining etc, even in a big car like the saff!

they handle superbly, go well and a are cheap to buy and maintain.

my friend is currently building a westy SEi and it looks like a great little track package, but at 12k it aint cheap

Rossco

Light weight, bullet proof engine, good handling and good brakes

Mega horse power is not the way to make a car fast round a track

Stavros

"handling" is very subjective, depends on how you drive.

what is an understeering pig in the hands of one driver, is perfectly balanced in another, and so on.

same with FWD or RWD, most people would be a lot faster in a FWD than a rear, even though maybe with the best driver there is the RWD is actually the fastest car.

MAIN thing is to get the best from any car you need to adjust it to how you drive.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

To me the single most important thing about any track car must be:
CHEAP ENOUGH TO NOT CARE IF YOU BIN IT
(Or extremely well insured)


If you spend months and years building something with every spare penny, the odds of you truely giving it 10/10ths are slim if you are in a position where you then cant replace it.

RichardPON

Lightweight is the key IMO.

Having a big bus of a car with a shedload of power isn't the way to make it cost effective to run.

Most people aren't loaded, so to be replacing 330mm discs every other trackday and going through 245 width tyres etc is madness.

If you keep a car light, then you can run smaller brakes, smaller wheels and tyres, and benefit in the process.

The locost/kit car option is a great one as suggested by Chip, although ultimately, you will probably be frustrated by limited top speeds etc.....

Mr Sam

god brakes good accel and its gotta stick to the tar

Stavros

As per Chips mention, IMO if you care too much about binning it, you wont get the most from it, hence why you see people spending tens of thousands on track cars and then just pussying them round and having them on show stands.

ALSO, fast laps times are NOT the same as fun, thats the most important thing that almost nobody seems to recognise.

But things like car forums gets people all competitive and feel they need to have the best/fastest car, so they can impress the random mongos they chat to on the site.

Unless your entering a race series, its NOT a race, its about having the biggest amount of fun for your cash, never ever forget that.

OldDan

I'm at Novice at this, but had mega fun both times I've used the car on track.

It's not quick, but handles really well, and brakes well, I have more fun sticking on the arses of more powerful prestige cars through bends, than anything else.

Or seeing must faster cars take a while to catch up because they can't keep up through the twisties

Phil

iTrader: (1)

I have tried a couple of cars on track and what is best all depends on your budget.

If you have lots of money and a trailer etc then Radical etc. If no trailer than a Caterham R500 is driveable to and from events of if you want more safety then a GT3 RS etc.

For people with medium amounts of money then a Caterham CSR or Lotus Exige are good options, or perhaps an Evo if it needs to be an every day car.

For budget track toys then you have a few options, a used Westfield/ Lo Cost build etc, or hot hatches If you are going for a cheap hot hatch then keep to something common so parts are easily and cheaply available (generally means staying away from Jap imports etc).

I would stay away form turbos on cheap track toys as there is more to go wrong and generally they will go wrong a lot more (it's harder to blow up an N/A car).

Try looking for cars with interchangeable parts. This is why the French cars are so popular, lots of things are all interchangeable between Saxos, 106's, 205s, 309s, 306s, 405's, 406's, ZX's, Xsaras etc So you cans ee how easy it is to upgrade to stiffer suspension from bigger heavier cars, and more powerful engines. Also it makes spares easy to come by!

Personally I would stay away from anything with high power and poor handling, and also anything with high spare parts values (Cossies fall in to this category for me) as you will eat components through wear and tear and failures.

The main thing to remember is to have fun! Being the fastest doesn't make it the most fun, you will just get frustrated when people hold you up if you are anything like me. I have more fun trying to nail every corner perfectly in my low powered 205 than I did holding on for life in my 400bhp RWD Saph (ok it wasn't really setup for track driving so could have been improved) knowing that I could never achieve a 'perfect' lap in it.

Adam_BlackRS

Mmmmmmm, 205's do seem to be very popular track cars

Biggest expense would be a flatbed trailer

Cheers for all the replies.... keep em coming

Phil

iTrader: (1)

Adam_BlackRS

Use an A-Frame! They are only legal to tow cars up to a weight of 750kg so you will need a light car, although I have never heard of anyone being pulled for towing something slightly heavier

You can get a decent A Frame for under Ł200 and if you have a heavy car to tow it with you won't have any probs.

Stavros

Goold old bandwagons, cant beat em for jumping on

RichardPON

Don't bother trailering it.

Bung a set of extra wheels in the boot with slicks on and drive it there.

IMO, there is NOTHING worse than finishing a trackday, tired and worn out, only to have to drive a towed vehicle up to 250 miles home. Plus, if you're going to go to all that expense and hassle, get your licence and go racing. It's much more rewarding.

RichardPON

I actually disagree with that to some degree. It sort of depends on your ability, but handling is much more consistent than that.

Anyone who says that a 205 GTi for example doesn't handle, can't drive properly.

An understeering pig of a car is an understeering pig of a car, regardless of your ability, and can't possibly be perfectly balanced when someone else is driving. It's either balanced or it isn't.

John Laverick

I got rid of my RST and bought the 106 Rallye due to a lot of the reasons stated above … small, light, nimble and relatively quick etc… On a recent track-day at Donington in the intermediate sessions there wasn’t much coming past me [a Focus ST and a well prepped Civic].

I prefer to spend my money doing track-days not buying expensive parts for the car…. A track car should have cheap parts - including tyres, discs and pads.

For instance the 195/45/15 tyres on my Pug are about Ł50 … Hi-Spec Discs and Ferodo Pads Ł240…reliable as hell and all replacement parts can be bought from your local scrapper!

Stavros

You could say its cause they cant drive, but to be honest, most people arnt good performance drivers and cant get the most from a car by exploiting their handling characteristics.

205GTIs will handle regardless, but its what happens on the limit that depends on the driver.
You will see some people understeering the things all over the shop, some complaining and/or spinning out due to the lift off oversteer, and some just finding them perfectly balanced.
All down to how they driving them.

People tying to drift cars also show these traits a lot, like Cossies for example, people say they are very oversteery, but aside from POWER oversteer they understeery as fuck off the throttle in general.

Shitbox volvo 360s are another good one, people try em out and cant do anything but grip or understeer, usually cause they trying to give it power oversteer or charging in mega fast, but if you understand how to drive them correctly its nothing but oversteer on or off throttle.

Phil

iTrader: (1)

Rich, I am trailering my 205 this year using an A Frame.

For me there is NOTHING worse than finishing a trackday and having to get the AA 250 miles home because you blew the piece of French crap up Although saying that I would like to get in to racing at some point, but I don't have the funds to do so at the moment - trailering is a money saving exercise for me when I weighed up all the costs.

RichardPON

How are you going to blow up a 205 on a trackday?

We did hundreds of stage miles in the rally car and it never missed a beat every weekend it was out.

Just having trailered cars before, I just find it a pain in the arse, especially when it's supposed to be a fun day out....

Benni

I'm going to be building a Ford Puma track car soon, Standard 1.7 130bhp engine to start with. But I hope to make it as light as possible and to handle as best as possible.

OldDan

Personally Benni I'd go for the 1.6.... Easy enough to push past FRP spec (155bhp) with cams, chip, exhaust manifold.....

Benni

Well, I would like a red one with black wheels as i think that will look mint. I've got more chance of finding a good 1.7 though haven't I? There's lots more of them isn't there?

OldDan

Yeah, you've got more chance with a 1.7! Cheap too. A fella on FFOC has a Puma track car, can't remember his name though! Not Nath is it?

Benni

Yea, It's Nath's I've seen it on here. I was building this track car with Gary but we had different taste, So we was never going to agree on anything. If only i own it i can do what the fuck i want with it.

TimC

iTrader: (1)

any more opinions on this?

been thinking of building a track car and this topic is giving me ideas

OldDan

Zetec-S going on ZSOC for 1k with a dodgy engine!

Phil

iTrader: (1)

Rich, I think you probably spent a bit more on your stage rally car than I have on my 205 though

My 205 has had the AA out twice, once at Bedford when the rear pad caught in the disc snapping the disc/caliper and bending the rear arm - a common occurance form the 205 boys I have spoken to. Cue a 6 hour long journey home which would take 2 hours even when towing!

The second time fortunately I was only local when I blew the headgasket (along with all the breather pipes off for added drama )

Then when I blew my Saph up at Brunters it was another 6 hour AA trip home

Personally I find towing quite easy, and from all accounts using an A frame is even easier as the cars 4 wheels are on the floor, so there is no trailer to go fishtailing around! A Ł150 A frame would have got me home on all the above occasions.

I can see you speak with more experience than me on this matter but I am definitely giving it a go this year

Big G

Fuck the car, a driver with decent track sense is more important,
You could have dogs nads of a track car but if you cant peddle it with safety towards others it aint worth a carrot.

Spiky

iTrader: (1)

this is the route i'm\thinking, but not sure if i am allowed to tow a 205 on an "a frame" with my 306diesel turbo????

Phil

iTrader: (1)

Spiky
From my understanding, you can't tow any car legally with an A frame (well there is some french sold only 2 seater thing which is the only legal car), but you are allowed to legally recocver a car to nearby safety with one.

This is because you cannot legally tow any unbraked trailer with a mass of over 750kg in the UK.

I would say you should be ok with your 306, so long as you keep the 205 as light as possible and put spares in the 306 to keep its weight up. I have towed around 1750kg using a 1.9 Dti Laguna before and it was ok but not great (the Laguna weighing about 1350kg)

With my Audi weighing 2 tonnes and the 205 weighing 850kg on the Oulton Park weigh bridge I don't think I should have any problems. If I could lose a few more kg from the 205 it would help though

NUTS RuS

iTrader: (35)

Anything as long as it has got an oil catch tank

Be good to see you out again Adam

Adam_BlackRS

Tony, how ya doing ?

It wasn't the lack of an oil catch tank..... it was the stupid oil lines could take the oil pressure

I'm tempted by a Honda Civic.... VTEC engines are generally sound

If i do decided to get another track car, i will need to get rid of my current toy... Susuki SJ Samuari 4x4

Still got my Motordrive seats so thats 1 or 2 things off my list