leecavturbo

whats the difference, correct terminology for each box type and how it operates i.e full throttle no clutch gearchanges?

can a full throttle no clutch gearchange work on a transversly mounted engine/gearbox arrangement?

gearboxman

Lee, for all of the explanations you require, I really need to SHOW you the differences.
Call in

GARETH T

this is a gearbox fitted with straight cut gears (and dog engagent BTW) as you can see the gears in the gearbox are cut straight as apossed to



helical gears which are cut at an angle to the shaft!
helical gears place a thrust loading onto the shafts/bearings due to the gears trying to pull/push themself appart! remember that any wasted energy is a waste of power (from the engine)
straight cut gears dont place a thrust loading on the bearing/shafts but they do come at a price! noise

when talking dog in bearbox terms it can either mean dog leg first meaning that first is where 2nd gear normally is on the gear selector (e30 M3's are like this)

or dog engagment gears



as you can see on the faces of these gears there are small drive "dogs" so when selecting between gears these dogs are what engage's the next gear unlike:



syncromesh gear engagment (brass bits) these allow the gear to be selected to match the speed needed before dropping into gear (all standard production cars are like this) and syncro gears shouldnt be rushed (quick shifts a bad idea?)
dog gears will just "bang" in allowing increased gearchange speed, but of cause at the expense of noise and high wear rates

sequential gearbox selection is when you change gear by either pushing or pulling the gearstick (like a motorbike)

this can be done with a barrel on a rathet moving the selector rods!

GARETH T

just found this,, it shows a gear being selected with its gear selector fork, and once the gear is selected the shaft starts turning

leecavturbo

can a transverse engine/box be a pull/push box to change gear ?

GARETH T

i dont know of a cheap way of doing it! quaife sell a sequential FWD gearbox, but it isnt cheap,, and i know in the early days,, it broke,,,,ALOT

Rick

still does. race box, for race rules - ie no torque.

Tony Ryan

most of the Gearbox manufacturers produce ranges of FWD Sequential boxes, ive sold 5 or 6 so far this year !! Theres no cheap way of doing it tho and an absolute waste of time in a road car ,

dovboy

what gearbox did the rs500 touringcars have in them ? it looks like a clutch in h-pattern gearbox,but what kind?

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I dont think he wants a FWD one, he is probably after a transverse 4wd one?

Good find on the pictures gareth, so much easier to explain with piccys than without!

racer

Hi Dovboy, the Group "A" RS500's used a Getrag 5 speed with a dogleg 1st gear position.
Gareth T gives an excellent explanation on gear design, the other reason for helical gears is that the gear tooth is longer and therefore can last longer, take more power, for the given space in the gearbox.

Andy

Rs1

iTrader: (1)

I'm pretty sure Simons evo is like this, looks brutal to change gear though

wes

You can convert H pattern to sequential operation, ikeya in japan do them and i think is what Simon used on his last evo, not sure about the new one.

http://www.ikeya-f.co.jp/en/index.html

wes

You need to lift the throttle slightly to do clutchless changes, or fit a microswitch to the gear lever that cuts the ignition when you pull it.

GARETH T

with a dog engagment gearbox you can do clutchless up changes, but there not much point, it can wear the dogs alot faster

markk

iTrader: (2)

there is a lot of point !! thats what its for pal

GARETH T

what i mean is,, your just lowering the life of the gearbox! what for? a tiny tiny improvement in stage time?

Tony Ryan

Gareth , a quicker gearchange is the most economical "tweek" that you can make , it costs virtually nothing if you look after the box and service it regularily . Imagine an engine or suspension upgrade to make up the same time !
Andy's correct the old RS 500's use a Getrag Gearbox , basically a BMW motorsport box with a longer bell housing , im sticking one back in my car until my X-trac box is ready .



I currently have a New Hewland 6 speed transverse 4wd box on my website , needs a case but spanking otherwise !

GARETH T

but whats the gear change difference between using a clutch and not using a clutch on a dog box? they are great to smash through though

Mad Matt

iTrader: (2)

Prices plz

leecavturbo

website tony? i know it would be a huge cost i.e 6-7k+

Mark_1

well if you are busy breaking with the left foot it is great to have the option to not clutch.

GARETH T

you noramlly only left foot brake when your foot is on the throttle, i dont change when the foots on the throttle

Tony Ryan

At the bottom of my sig , cheaper than that too , lol.

GARETH T

i was searching for your site aswell tony and didnt think to look at your profile or www bit

markk

iTrader: (2)

by the time you have actually made the leg movement and your hand is already on the gearlever, you have already changed gear before the clutch has chance to disengage and re-engage that then gives the gearbox problems and to its driven gear speeds and can lead to fluffed
shifts , though i would always shift down in any of quaifes dog boxes with the clutch, other quality doggers dont need the clutch !

GARETH T

my mates quaife dogger has blown up more times than its done miles

markk

iTrader: (2)

ive had good service from mine, had it serviced regular though, and new bits fitted as and when, the quaife are the lowest of the low, when you look at the tooth profiles compared to and FFD(hewland cut, WOW !!! no wonder they charge what they charge, and and 20 times better

GARETH T

mark what box have you got in your car?

markk

iTrader: (2)

at the moment a quaife big tooth whle the 4wd system is being proven to be reliable ! the box is the easy bit, its everything forward of that.

GARETH T

cool

Tony Ryan

It will do ! Quaife use a Male and female Dog system instead of a decent dog ring , means the Gears wear out very quickly , on a proper box you can replace the dog rings , Quaifes invariably require Gears ! And their customer service is legendary

GARETH T

my friends been on to there "good" customer services a few times