Home Cinema people - AV Receivers.......
10-01-2007, 04:55 PM
#1
Home Cinema people - AV Receivers.......
Without getting carried away, what's good when it comes to AV Receivers??
Also, if I connect a DVD player that can do CD's also, can I expect good quality for that side of things?
I am currently looking at a Marantz unit, the SR4001 (with HDMI) at under £400, with an extra £170 for the upscaling DVD player.
I don't really want to spend that much if I can help it.
It will be connected to ceiling speakers, which is why I can't buy one of the Home Cinema packages.
Also, if I connect a DVD player that can do CD's also, can I expect good quality for that side of things?
I am currently looking at a Marantz unit, the SR4001 (with HDMI) at under £400, with an extra £170 for the upscaling DVD player.
I don't really want to spend that much if I can help it.
It will be connected to ceiling speakers, which is why I can't buy one of the Home Cinema packages.
10-01-2007, 05:21 PM
#2
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I wouldn't waste ya money on an upscaling dvd player, within the year HD players will be everywhere and they will nearly all upscale any standard dvd's played on them
10-01-2007, 06:10 PM
#3
In regard to upscaling DVD players - you must remember that on an LCD or plasma screen, of which most are HD ready and have 720p resolution panels, all input signals, from TV to DVD, to VCR etc are all upscaled to the max res of the screen anyway. If not, then the DVD standard of 720x576 (576p - but remember that most DVD's are widescreen, so the image is anamorphic, and the actual picture displayed is 720x480) would display smaller than the total screen and would have a black border around all edges, like so;
So all input pictures are naturally upscaled by the TV
The point of upscaling DVD players is two fold. 1) you get a HDMI output on them (allegedly better pic quality) and 2) they upscale the picture from 576p to 720p or 1080i/p depending on your TV's resolution, BEFORE the signal reaches the TV, meaning the TV doen'st have to upscale it, and thus it should give a better PQ. Some tests have shown that in some cases it DOES produce a better PQ, in some cases it doesn't - all depends on how good the upscaler in the TV is.....
Moving to AV amps - the first thing you need to do is work out what you need it for. If you are not going to put video signals through it, and only use it for audio (like most people, including myself) do, then the world is your oyster, so to speak. However, if you plan to use it for video switching aswell as audio, you need to think carefully as to what connections you will/might need. Many amps only accept composite inputs (the yellow, single rca plug, which is an AWFUL video conductor) Mine only accepts composite, but thats not a prob as I plan to use mine for audio switching and amplification anyway.
You need to look at how your source units connect to your TV - be it scart, HDMI, component (the red, blue and green rca's) or s-video etc.
Currently the one to have is either the Sony STR-DA3200ES or STR-DA5200ES. The reason being is that both of these amps have "HDMI Repeater" functions - in that the amp will upscale all inputs to be passed through the HDMI output - so you can plug stuff into it in either HDMI or component, or composite/s-vid etc, and they will be passed through the singel HDMI output, allowing only 1 video connection to the TV for all video inputs - handy! Of course, quality remains the same (although it does upscale the resolution of the lesser inputs to a max of 1080i depending on res of TV), as it's just a pass-though, but it makes it less headscratching for connecting stuff up...
Moving onto the CD quality issue - to be honest, unless you spend silly ammounts of money, you won't find a DVD player that has the same sound quality as a decent spec CD Player (and by dcent spec, I mean a £200-£300 CD player) Likewise, AV amps aren't the "best" choice for perfectionist CD music amplifcation. These AV amps have to be a comprimise as they have to tend to both music and movie soundtracks. A good quality stereo valve amplifier will blow even the most expensive AV amp out the water everytime.
At the same time, unless you are Doug Stirling, chances are you won't hear much of a difference (not a dig at Doug, more an appraisal - the man knows his audio!) Compare a £50 DVD player to a £50 CD plater, and most likely there will be little difference, tho my money would be on the stereo amp for better sound quailty in a fight beteen a £400 AV amp and a £400 stereo amp..... But under this money, you won't find a huge load of difference, if any to the untrained ear, and these are correctable to an extent by using external DAC's and quality cabling. Personally, I am not that fussed as I won't use mine for music all that much, so any CD's I will play will come from my DVD player to the AV amp via coaxial (digital) cable anyway.....
Hope this is of some help and not too headscratching for ya
So all input pictures are naturally upscaled by the TV
The point of upscaling DVD players is two fold. 1) you get a HDMI output on them (allegedly better pic quality) and 2) they upscale the picture from 576p to 720p or 1080i/p depending on your TV's resolution, BEFORE the signal reaches the TV, meaning the TV doen'st have to upscale it, and thus it should give a better PQ. Some tests have shown that in some cases it DOES produce a better PQ, in some cases it doesn't - all depends on how good the upscaler in the TV is.....
Moving to AV amps - the first thing you need to do is work out what you need it for. If you are not going to put video signals through it, and only use it for audio (like most people, including myself) do, then the world is your oyster, so to speak. However, if you plan to use it for video switching aswell as audio, you need to think carefully as to what connections you will/might need. Many amps only accept composite inputs (the yellow, single rca plug, which is an AWFUL video conductor) Mine only accepts composite, but thats not a prob as I plan to use mine for audio switching and amplification anyway.
You need to look at how your source units connect to your TV - be it scart, HDMI, component (the red, blue and green rca's) or s-video etc.
Currently the one to have is either the Sony STR-DA3200ES or STR-DA5200ES. The reason being is that both of these amps have "HDMI Repeater" functions - in that the amp will upscale all inputs to be passed through the HDMI output - so you can plug stuff into it in either HDMI or component, or composite/s-vid etc, and they will be passed through the singel HDMI output, allowing only 1 video connection to the TV for all video inputs - handy! Of course, quality remains the same (although it does upscale the resolution of the lesser inputs to a max of 1080i depending on res of TV), as it's just a pass-though, but it makes it less headscratching for connecting stuff up...
Moving onto the CD quality issue - to be honest, unless you spend silly ammounts of money, you won't find a DVD player that has the same sound quality as a decent spec CD Player (and by dcent spec, I mean a £200-£300 CD player) Likewise, AV amps aren't the "best" choice for perfectionist CD music amplifcation. These AV amps have to be a comprimise as they have to tend to both music and movie soundtracks. A good quality stereo valve amplifier will blow even the most expensive AV amp out the water everytime.
At the same time, unless you are Doug Stirling, chances are you won't hear much of a difference (not a dig at Doug, more an appraisal - the man knows his audio!) Compare a £50 DVD player to a £50 CD plater, and most likely there will be little difference, tho my money would be on the stereo amp for better sound quailty in a fight beteen a £400 AV amp and a £400 stereo amp..... But under this money, you won't find a huge load of difference, if any to the untrained ear, and these are correctable to an extent by using external DAC's and quality cabling. Personally, I am not that fussed as I won't use mine for music all that much, so any CD's I will play will come from my DVD player to the AV amp via coaxial (digital) cable anyway.....
Hope this is of some help and not too headscratching for ya
10-01-2007, 06:27 PM
#4
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Hell of a lot of this type of post since christmas, i guess lots of people are stying in the house in Jan and sorting out their new flatscreens (I can't talk, i bought a bravia)
I was under the impression (for no reason other than i just assumed) that an upscaling dvd player would use clever electronics to do trickery on the image, e.g. detect straight lines and interpolate the edges, and do the same with moving images,
So do they just generate the extra pixels with no particular cleverness?
I was under the impression (for no reason other than i just assumed) that an upscaling dvd player would use clever electronics to do trickery on the image, e.g. detect straight lines and interpolate the edges, and do the same with moving images,
So do they just generate the extra pixels with no particular cleverness?
10-01-2007, 07:54 PM
#5
Thanks Thrush and to a lesser extent but nonetheless also valuable, Scrote.
At the moment, we have a £300 Denon Midi system (UD-M30) for our Audio, so it is hardly Audiophile, but I just want to be sure that I won't turn it on and think 'This is shit'. The Denon unit has nice sound quality.
How, for example, will this type of set-up compare with a Home Cinema package costing around £500 in terms of sound quality??
As for connectivity, until I have some stuff infront of me, I guess I won't truly understand what's good and what's not. The TV has good connectivity......
Though I feel this may not be relevant. In general is it a case of plugging all the inputs into the AV box (DVD, Sky, FM Signal etc), then sending an HDMI lead up to the TV? Or is it loads more complicated than that?
Part of the attraction is to condense everything down and if that can be achieved by only having to have an AV Receiver and a DVD player for everything, then that's good for me.
We are hopefully eventually going to have 5 Ceiling Speakers (2 Fronts and 1 Centre with adjustable/angled drivers/tweeters and 2 static rears) and a floor standing Sub, though in the short term we may just start with the 2 fronts. This is obviously going to be expensive!
At the moment, we have a £300 Denon Midi system (UD-M30) for our Audio, so it is hardly Audiophile, but I just want to be sure that I won't turn it on and think 'This is shit'. The Denon unit has nice sound quality.
How, for example, will this type of set-up compare with a Home Cinema package costing around £500 in terms of sound quality??
As for connectivity, until I have some stuff infront of me, I guess I won't truly understand what's good and what's not. The TV has good connectivity......
Though I feel this may not be relevant. In general is it a case of plugging all the inputs into the AV box (DVD, Sky, FM Signal etc), then sending an HDMI lead up to the TV? Or is it loads more complicated than that?
Part of the attraction is to condense everything down and if that can be achieved by only having to have an AV Receiver and a DVD player for everything, then that's good for me.
We are hopefully eventually going to have 5 Ceiling Speakers (2 Fronts and 1 Centre with adjustable/angled drivers/tweeters and 2 static rears) and a floor standing Sub, though in the short term we may just start with the 2 fronts. This is obviously going to be expensive!
10-01-2007, 09:16 PM
#6
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I looked into something like this for my samsung LCD screen but couldn't be arsed in the end.
I bought a Bose 3-2-1 system which was a piece of piss to set up with only a few wires and three speakers. The sub is quality, and the other two speakers throw the sound around the room which make the system sound much bigger than it is.
It plays DVDs and CDs, supports my Ipod, Ps2 and my decks and sounds quality.
I bought a Bose 3-2-1 system which was a piece of piss to set up with only a few wires and three speakers. The sub is quality, and the other two speakers throw the sound around the room which make the system sound much bigger than it is.
It plays DVDs and CDs, supports my Ipod, Ps2 and my decks and sounds quality.
11-01-2007, 09:45 AM
#7
Testing the future
i would be looking at something that can also handle streamed media from a home network
i personally do not want to have a large dvd / cd collection in my lounge that i have to store and search through. i want everything stored on a server and call it up in the lounge, conservatory, bedroom or wherever from one central place
i personally do not want to have a large dvd / cd collection in my lounge that i have to store and search through. i want everything stored on a server and call it up in the lounge, conservatory, bedroom or wherever from one central place
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11-01-2007, 10:00 AM
#8
Chris - your TV has a pretty comprehensive connectivity there. Starting with the first pic, it has two HDMI inputs, tho only one of these is true HDMI (that can carry sound and audio) which is input 2. Input one is marked with "DVI" in brackets - this means that it can show a DVI input (the digital video output you would find on a computer graphics card for example) when used with a DVI-to-HDMI adpter. It will transmit pictures, but not audio (to the TV speakers) The optical audio input next to it will transmit the digital audio to your TV speakers, but I would bet that the digital audio input is configurable/assignable to any input your TV has, from the on screen menu (meaning you don't just have to use it for the DVI input, you could use it with the copmponent video input for example)
Other than that, you have two scart inputs (I pressume both RGB) and one scart output. That output says to me that your TV has built in Freeview, and that output scart is to connect your TV to a DVD recorder or VCR, etc in order to record the Freeview channels. Next you have a component (YUV/YPrPb) input, which dedicated audio (analogue), next to that is a composite/s-video input with dedicated (analogue) audio.
the pic below shows a 15-pin D-Sub (S)VGA input - the normal blue analogue RGB plug most computer monitors use, with a 3.5mm stereo mini-jack for dedicated audio - both for plugging in a PC. And lastly another set of composite/s-video inputs
So, next thing to do is work out what source gear you need/will have. For example, I will have a DVD player, a VCR, and a Freeview box/recorder. Working out what you will have is a good start to working out how you will connect it
If you are going to have a DVD player and a VCR, but not a freeview box (since your TV already has freeview built in) then the best way to do it is to connect your DVD up to the component inputs on the AV amp (or if you buy a new DVD player, you might get one with the HDMI output) and the VCR you can connect to the S-Vid input on the AV amp (probably using a scart to s-video adapter). Then you can simply run 1x HDMI lead from the AV amp to the HDMI (number 2) input on the TV. This should carry both the DVD picture and audio, and the VCR picture and audio aswell, meaning that you only need to select the HDMI channel on the TV, and then use the amp to switch the input (DVD or VCR) on it's own.
Other than that, you have two scart inputs (I pressume both RGB) and one scart output. That output says to me that your TV has built in Freeview, and that output scart is to connect your TV to a DVD recorder or VCR, etc in order to record the Freeview channels. Next you have a component (YUV/YPrPb) input, which dedicated audio (analogue), next to that is a composite/s-video input with dedicated (analogue) audio.
the pic below shows a 15-pin D-Sub (S)VGA input - the normal blue analogue RGB plug most computer monitors use, with a 3.5mm stereo mini-jack for dedicated audio - both for plugging in a PC. And lastly another set of composite/s-video inputs
So, next thing to do is work out what source gear you need/will have. For example, I will have a DVD player, a VCR, and a Freeview box/recorder. Working out what you will have is a good start to working out how you will connect it
If you are going to have a DVD player and a VCR, but not a freeview box (since your TV already has freeview built in) then the best way to do it is to connect your DVD up to the component inputs on the AV amp (or if you buy a new DVD player, you might get one with the HDMI output) and the VCR you can connect to the S-Vid input on the AV amp (probably using a scart to s-video adapter). Then you can simply run 1x HDMI lead from the AV amp to the HDMI (number 2) input on the TV. This should carry both the DVD picture and audio, and the VCR picture and audio aswell, meaning that you only need to select the HDMI channel on the TV, and then use the amp to switch the input (DVD or VCR) on it's own.
12-01-2007, 06:01 PM
#9
Thrush, thanks very much for your very detailed help.
We won't bother with a VCR. You are right about the TV having built-in Freeview.
We have a 'Loft-box' for the Sky distribution and don't currently have Sky HD. This may happen eventually, but not yet.
So, my Sky box is in another room with the main TV and the feed for this TV come from one of the outputs on the Loft-box via a length of shielded Sky Co-Ax cable.
We will also have a DVD Player, which I would like to play DVD's and music CD's. I would like all the sound to be carried through the external speakers (in the ceiling).
I assume that the AV Receiver will (or can) have a built-in FM Tuner. So that's pretty much all we need.
I may one day add an I-Pod dock, but not an important thing.
We won't bother with a VCR. You are right about the TV having built-in Freeview.
We have a 'Loft-box' for the Sky distribution and don't currently have Sky HD. This may happen eventually, but not yet.
So, my Sky box is in another room with the main TV and the feed for this TV come from one of the outputs on the Loft-box via a length of shielded Sky Co-Ax cable.
We will also have a DVD Player, which I would like to play DVD's and music CD's. I would like all the sound to be carried through the external speakers (in the ceiling).
I assume that the AV Receiver will (or can) have a built-in FM Tuner. So that's pretty much all we need.
I may one day add an I-Pod dock, but not an important thing.
12-01-2007, 06:42 PM
#10
Feeding Sky to a TV via coax isn't the best way of doing it tho - your basically feeding it an RF passthrough signal, and RF rates lower than composite (single yellow video RCA you get on the yellow, red, white RCA "AV" connections) !!! YUCK!
Sky is best carried to a TV via either RGB scart, component (RGB) phono, or HDMI (for Sky HD)
As you have it now tho, you could not connect the Sky video feed to the AV amp, as they don't accept RF connections (except for the radio aerial feed)
How is the audio transmitted from the Sky box? is it all done via the RF coax cable? If so, then you cannot transmit the Sky audio signal to the AV amp either! You need a direct video source and a direct, seperate audio souce from the Sky box to the AV amp to achieve what you want....
Sky is best carried to a TV via either RGB scart, component (RGB) phono, or HDMI (for Sky HD)
As you have it now tho, you could not connect the Sky video feed to the AV amp, as they don't accept RF connections (except for the radio aerial feed)
How is the audio transmitted from the Sky box? is it all done via the RF coax cable? If so, then you cannot transmit the Sky audio signal to the AV amp either! You need a direct video source and a direct, seperate audio souce from the Sky box to the AV amp to achieve what you want....
12-01-2007, 07:56 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by Christian and Beccy
At the moment, we have a £300 Denon Midi system (UD-M30) for our Audio, so it is hardly Audiophile, but I just want to be sure that I won't turn it on and think 'This is shit'. The Denon unit has nice sound quality.
How, for example, will this type of set-up compare with a Home Cinema package costing around £500 in terms of sound quality??
12-01-2007, 08:05 PM
#13
10K+ Poster!!
Thrush As your clearly in the know about these things ! I need some advice.
We only have one Skybox in the house which is downstairs, there are no aerial sockets in any room so we had a lead fitted from the skybox upto my mums room then mine, were both using those magic eye things so we can fight over what to watch
The irritating thing is that I now have the best tv in the house ( LCD ) and the pic on sky isn't great, worst of all I only get it in mono which makes the cinema system seem pointless except for gaming and dvd's.
Whats the best way round it and also what the the hell is the DVI socket in the back of my tv for ?
Thanks
James
We only have one Skybox in the house which is downstairs, there are no aerial sockets in any room so we had a lead fitted from the skybox upto my mums room then mine, were both using those magic eye things so we can fight over what to watch
The irritating thing is that I now have the best tv in the house ( LCD ) and the pic on sky isn't great, worst of all I only get it in mono which makes the cinema system seem pointless except for gaming and dvd's.
Whats the best way round it and also what the the hell is the DVI socket in the back of my tv for ?
Thanks
James
12-01-2007, 10:07 PM
#14
Jonny - Sky ain't my specialist subject as I've never had it, but like any digital reciever, the best way to send the signal from the box to the TV is via a direct connection. As I mentioned in the reply to C+B, RF modulation (the process of sending a picture and audio signal from a source unit [in this case the Sky box] to a TV via RF Coax cable, or commonly known as aerial cable) is simply a shit transport. In the ratings from high (best quality) to low (shit quality) for transport connections is as follows (1st being highest, then going down the chain)
1. HDMI/Digital Componant (YCrCb)
2. RGB Scart (proper fully wired RGB compliant scart)
3. Analogue Component (YPrPb/YUV)
4. Scart (CvBS, or S-Video)
5. S-Video
6. Composite (yellow single RCA plug)
7. RF
Out of the above connectors, only HDMI, Scart and RF are able to transport both sound and video in the same connection (HDMI, v1.3, is able to transport completely uncompressed video signals, aswell as up to 8channels of uncompressed PCM digital audio, while scart [RGB and CvBS] and RF coax can only support 2ch stereo, or mono) All the others are video only video transport and need seperate audio connectors - typically the red and white phono plugs)
You won't get a decent video signal using RF modulation, specially after it has been split over and over again and sent round the house, specially on a digital video signal. Not sure why you are only getting Mono (should be downmixed from multichannel to stereo) but that could simply depend on the quality and lengths of the cable really, and also on the box itself.
Onto DVI. DVI is Digital Video Interface, and basically the digital version of a PC's (S)VGA monitor connection. Many graphics cards took advantage of this, and it's basically a universal digital transport for graphics. VGA is pure RGB, scanned left to right and horizontally. DVI is the same, but just the digital version (VGA is analogue). The bonus to DVI is that HDMI is backward compliant with it - you can get a HDMI to DVI adapter to convert a HDMI lead to a DVI plug, meaning a new age DVD player with HDMI output, or a Sky HD box with HDMI output, can be plugged into a TV that only has DVI input (or PC monitor). The flipside tho is that DVI inputs cannot support sound, so audio that would be carried byt the HDMI lead is scrapped - you would need a seperate audio connection, and seeing as DVI is a digital video transport, a digital sound transport is best - either optical (TOS) or electrical (digi-coax, the ones with the RCA plug on each end)
A note on digital audio cables. Optical cables are fine for most things, and provide a good, clean, crips audio transport, with very little degradation, esspecially over long lengths, where analogue signals break down and quality is lost) but for you movie fans who like your Dolby Digital and DTS film soundtracks, you're best off using a decent 75ohm digital RCA cable (digi-coax) from the DVD player to the surround sound amp or all in one cinema speaker system. Being a thicker, shielded cable, it provides more resistance (hence the 75ohm part) and supports a wider frequency bandwidth than the thinner, unshielded RCA (analogue) cable. To be honest there isn't much in it between optical digital and electrical (coax) digital cables, but most people find that DVD soundtracks and digital music (DTS CD's for example) sound warmer with electrical digital cables
1. HDMI/Digital Componant (YCrCb)
2. RGB Scart (proper fully wired RGB compliant scart)
3. Analogue Component (YPrPb/YUV)
4. Scart (CvBS, or S-Video)
5. S-Video
6. Composite (yellow single RCA plug)
7. RF
Out of the above connectors, only HDMI, Scart and RF are able to transport both sound and video in the same connection (HDMI, v1.3, is able to transport completely uncompressed video signals, aswell as up to 8channels of uncompressed PCM digital audio, while scart [RGB and CvBS] and RF coax can only support 2ch stereo, or mono) All the others are video only video transport and need seperate audio connectors - typically the red and white phono plugs)
You won't get a decent video signal using RF modulation, specially after it has been split over and over again and sent round the house, specially on a digital video signal. Not sure why you are only getting Mono (should be downmixed from multichannel to stereo) but that could simply depend on the quality and lengths of the cable really, and also on the box itself.
Onto DVI. DVI is Digital Video Interface, and basically the digital version of a PC's (S)VGA monitor connection. Many graphics cards took advantage of this, and it's basically a universal digital transport for graphics. VGA is pure RGB, scanned left to right and horizontally. DVI is the same, but just the digital version (VGA is analogue). The bonus to DVI is that HDMI is backward compliant with it - you can get a HDMI to DVI adapter to convert a HDMI lead to a DVI plug, meaning a new age DVD player with HDMI output, or a Sky HD box with HDMI output, can be plugged into a TV that only has DVI input (or PC monitor). The flipside tho is that DVI inputs cannot support sound, so audio that would be carried byt the HDMI lead is scrapped - you would need a seperate audio connection, and seeing as DVI is a digital video transport, a digital sound transport is best - either optical (TOS) or electrical (digi-coax, the ones with the RCA plug on each end)
A note on digital audio cables. Optical cables are fine for most things, and provide a good, clean, crips audio transport, with very little degradation, esspecially over long lengths, where analogue signals break down and quality is lost) but for you movie fans who like your Dolby Digital and DTS film soundtracks, you're best off using a decent 75ohm digital RCA cable (digi-coax) from the DVD player to the surround sound amp or all in one cinema speaker system. Being a thicker, shielded cable, it provides more resistance (hence the 75ohm part) and supports a wider frequency bandwidth than the thinner, unshielded RCA (analogue) cable. To be honest there isn't much in it between optical digital and electrical (coax) digital cables, but most people find that DVD soundtracks and digital music (DTS CD's for example) sound warmer with electrical digital cables
12-01-2007, 10:13 PM
#15
10K+ Poster!!
Thanks mate
The weird thing with the mono sound is that on 1,2,3,4 I get it in Stereo, stick it on 6 (channel sky is tuned into) and it says mono ?
Very weird buit always been like it.
When I have some spare cash I'll look into some proper cables to sort the system out.
thanks again
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