Stu @ M Developments classic

 

Can we have the other half please (preferably with address offsets).

In answer to his question though, the tools of the job are cheap nowadays. Its the clunky mapping process you have to get around (which the RP labs modification will do). And as Stu effectively points out, knowing the memory addresses for the various maps is a time consuming thing to work out.

Not a difficult job once you a) have the calibration portion of the memory (as half dumped above) b) know roughly what the different maps look like c) understand the resolution of the values for a given maps. There are other approaches to working this lot out, generally by disassembling the firmware of the ECU. Again, easy with the right tools and having half an understanding on what you're looking for.

Cheers.

 

Do you REALLY believe that makes this product bad value or are you arguing just for the sake of it?
Cost out your time for doing all that!

Surely you cant believe the two (a cheap emulator and the RP labs solution) are REALLY equivalent products?

And you STILL wont have the nice monitor software and coil pack drivers and lambda etc!


You still need to then identify which address represent your timing figure at idle when you are 500 rpm above the idle set point, and your temperature calibration for igniton advance based on coolant temp etc, its a HUGE job to do, it would take joe public years to research and learn how to do all that lot!

 

Chip,

What are you on about? In my post I make no argument that its cheaper to do it the prom emulation route in fact, I know it isn't cheaper to do it the Stu way. I'm just interested in pulling electronics apart, specifically firmware and data store - after all, brute forcing the prom isn't exactly rocket science, once you have a foundation in electronics?

As stated, RP Labs is a fantastic technical achievement.

Cheers.

 

Fair enough Ben, apologies if i took your post the wrong way.

 

I didn't say just emulator, i enquired to the cost of the software which would enable it to be easily mapped. Bit of a pain to reverse engineer that map epecially when it's already been done. Stu, the software u use looked a lot easier to use than that - can't this be used? I'm asking because i don't know...

 

Thats how my Software starts out Rick. I turn it all into maps using my own knowledge of both mapping and the expensive software i use that allows me to single out parts and look at them in various dimensions like this:

Starts out like this:


here is teh fuel map area:


Here it is in 2d.


And here it is viewed in various dimensions ready for live mapping:


But as a starting point, i have to start with Dec or Ascii as you saw above. To my knowledge there is no software available to show you all the map areas in a L8, bar Pectels DOS offering and that is lacking in a LOT of areas.

 

Interesting. Very similar to picking a prog apart. I've played with the pectel software, does look a bit dated lol.

Is the above method the same that has been used since the dawn of cosworths (without that version of the graphing/display software)?

 

The yanks have been at this for ages :

http://www.tweecer.com/dl/Manual.zip

 

ok right the exspense in equipment in fitting to a cossie

omex 600 £850
dta p8 £850
autronic £1250+
mbe £750
pectel £750

all plus vat

add 350/400
for loom
add £150/200 for different pulley wheel sensors ect
and 50/70 for relocating airtemp water temp retaping them

then either £500 to £700 pound for a setup

so just short of 2k makes rp very cheap

my setup

dta s/h 500
loom new injectors,sensors new pulleys, machining £400

and believe me done as cheap as poss


plus £350 for a wideband
£150 fuel presure gauge
det cans £50

several thousand minutes on my phone to chip , gareth t , stu&kenny@msd ,gary and neil @ carwise

several tanks of fuel

so what ever way you look at it rp labs aint a bad buy add the fact its quite user friendly with a average knowledge of tuning

i wouuldnt change the dta for it as ive bin to hell and back so wouldnt be no point BUT if this was out when i started out then id have one

 

the pectel t6 2000 is £2200 plus the dreaded

and i really wanna quote stus BIN file

 

Jaycos - you've obviously gotten 'the point' of the RP Labs equipment .

 

You still need all that with the RP setup?

Bottom line is you need a market for a product to

a) Recoup you dev costs
b) Make some profits

Lets say 30 people bought this in the next year (sounds high to me). Thats not a lot of money for anyone involved in this product????

Dont get me wrong as it sounds like a great achievment and I dont really have an opinion on how good the product is or is not, just the likelihood of anyone ever making any cash out of it???

Even if you halved the price, the question still comes down to "How big is the market for Pro and DIY tuning using this ECU?" Not very big me thinks.

Fell free to slaughter me.

 

Ja,y you still need to map the RP Labs, although as it is provided with a base map, that should put you halfway there

 

yeh also think about how much time itll save the tuner just straight into the ecu afr gauge and det cans and away you go coz i bet they dont reflect in the price of a live map all the equipment they have to setup before they even start

 

goes without saying my point is pug and play no fuckin about with compatable sensors trigger wheels ect ect ect

 

i dont think he got your point bill

 

Jaycos, without any doubt its DEFINATELY easier to install by a fucking mile than any other ECU (other than SECS)

If you are paying a tuners time to fit your loom for you (which i guess a lot of people do so rather than DIY stuff like me or you) then you are talking about hundreds of pounds!

 

Indeed Jay, as Stu has already hinted at, and would probably agree with you (re: all the other gear/setup time).

I don't know for certain, but I'll wager (a quid, lol) you haven't got to map everything from scratch (i.e. cold start tables) as Ford already filled in a lot of re-utilisable 'blanks.'

EDIT: I think he did Gareth, but I think you and I are reading Jay's comment that you quoted, differently

 

this product will be purchased by the 'weekend messers' of this i have no doubt, the sort of people who 'think' if they have a system that they can 'fiddle' with the maps in there ecu's then they can say ' i mapped it my self'

its not going to effect the tuners, as they will only have to fix other peoples fook ups, in fact i hope they charge/start charging even more money for technical advice on the phone etc.

its not going to radically change the world in cosworth terms, its not going to be found in topline competition, as it doesnt compete really, its just for the 'messers'.

i dont map my own car, not because i couldnt, but because there are people out there who know way more about the inards of ecu's and mapping than i ever really want to know, if i feel the urge for a change in spec the car gets remapped by a pro, not a messer, not me, i rely on my car to be reliable and to run faultless in every circumstance i find it in, it does that very well, thanks to my chosen hardware, my build quality and to MSD who implement the software and its changes, whay would i want to buy an older ecu, with some new bits on that i have had for years, to gain nothing but losing what £1000 ?

there is no gain in 99% of peoples use in all honousty, what has started off to be one guys hobby and thirst for wanting to be able to do this has been spread, may be someone will gain - you wil be that 1% .

 

Just to clear things up slightly to the best of my understanding, there is no data carried over from ford as the data format is different i believe.

As i know its not possible (well not easily possible) to accurately "port" a L8 chip to RP Labs L8

 

MarkK, if i had a competition cosworth it would be mapped by Stu@MSD too, not by myself, cause he is better at it.

Im just a "messer" because i enjoy doing so, not because i believe i can better Stu's results.

 

That's a quid I owe you then Chip

One thing I cannot understand, is that when a certain other ECU came on the scene, it was heralded as the bees knees - this hits the same target market imo, but has the proper backup that wasn't available at that time, with the other one.....

Horses for courses, if people want to buy this then they will.... and just for the record, I think this and the 'other' ECU were/are very good initiatives for the target market.

 

its not the quality of the product we are 'adult like' debating its the price, and the uk price also for what your getting compapred to what we already have

 

Billabong, i assume you mean SECS?

If so its a different product in that its a complete new ECU with a warranty on all parts, its got much more processing power and memory etc.

Obviously that counts for nothing wihtout good service though!


However the key point that MarkK is making applies to ANY ecu, people think that cause the software is easy to use it makes it easy to map, it doesnt, you still need to understand how much ignition advance you need etc, how you type the number in is kind of irrelevant.

 

at the end of the day, without a wealth of knowledge and experiance you aint no mapper

 

I do see where you're coming from as regards mapping etc. Mark - I won't be switching my pro-mapped P8 to this so I can destroy my own engine , but then I'm probably not in the target market either.

But unlike some, I like you put a high value on what mappers do and am prepared to pay for that - it's not the case of having a fat wallet (if only ) it's a case of having a proper job done, properly.

Chip, yes I did mean that - was trying the compare the excitement/demand, and also highlight how cheapest (even if more advanced) isn't always best in the long run for the customer (and that isn't a 'dig' at Simon).

I'm sure Mike will (and has) work hard to get the best price for the customer, but not at the cost of a lack of aftersales support - and as he's not the primary source of the gear, he has to price accordingly.

 

I too enjoy being a messer and prob my car is way down power compared to how stu would tune it but that's the learning curve.

also at the end of the day its worth what people want to pay so if it sells then its worth it to the persons that brought it.
lets face most performance parts are over priced and we all buy them the hole car things a waist of money an we still do it lol

 

Just to clarify Chip & Jay, I wasn't referring to you re: pro-mapping, I was referring to Bal's:

I do have a good value of a pound note, but also respect the time, money and effort involved in being a successful mapper, hence why I DID go to Harvey (so to Bal )

If I had the time, spare engine/car then I'd be prepared to have a play as it's the only way to learn more, but not on my daily driver.

 

What you all fail to see is the other ECUs fit a wide range of applications,this just for a YB.....As to what aftermarket ECU i would ever buy........i'd be goin Autronic purely because with Mark you got a skilled mapper who IMO has always got time to give good personnal service..or is that just for me?

BUT in saying that i am happy with what Karl can do with L8

 

[quote="jaycos"]ok right the exspense in equipment in fitting to a cossie

omex 600 £850
dta p8 £850
autronic £1250+
mbe £750
pectel £750

all plus vat

add 350/400
for loom
add £150/200 for different pulley wheel sensors ect
and 50/70 for relocating airtemp water temp retaping them

No pulley mods needed for Autronic so that closes the gap

Mark

 

If i had a YB, then i would defo be hacking my own ECU relentlessly. Not to gain power, but to gain more understanding, as i study electronics, and it will be my livelyhood.

This product isn't really for me - but i can certainly appreciate the time and effort that has gone into it - and making it work efficiently.

It's difficult to see who this is targeted at. It's expensive for a messer for sure. I think maybe what i like to call the wannabe tuners (most of them imo ) could find this useful - the kind that can map an aftermarket ecu, but aren't capable of reverse engineering the often (mostly?) superior OEM hardware.

How many people actually LIVE map cossie's on the road? I know Stu and Ahmed. Who else?

 

i was refering to the MAIN point of this ecu is home mapping,,,,,, well then the diy people will choose the after market on average as then they feel they get a new ecu ( secs being a example here) BUTthis product is gonna be not far off autronic,,,,,,,,, but we know that autronic is what all the big cossies have now,,,,,, so why not just have that then ?

AND we also know that the MAJORITY of people going aftermarket for there cossie will get someone else to map it otherwise wheres the benifit if your mapping is gonna loose you power


THEN theres the FACT that autronic/dta ect can be used on other cars, meaning you get fed up with your cossie and decide to buy a evo then the autronic can be moved over and mapped by the persons mappper of choice for it

can the rp labs have that action just as easy do ypu think

im sorry but i love messing with cars but mapping is the same as setting cars up,, but much more complex and i dont even set my car up as i get stu to do it the i know its done proper


for this product to take over the market and compete its gonna have to be cheaper and thats a fact

what you are doing it looking at pectel and saying its cheeper,,,,,, but ignoring the dta market as thats DIY, emerald is also DIY too


i know you all love to have a dig at secs BUT say that this convices him to rethink proper and get his arse into gear,,,,,,,,, he releses his 600 quid new ecu,,,,,,,, your gonna be bolloxd aint ya


also this product is only gonna sell based on the aftersales promise,,,, using mike and harvey as marketing tools, selling there names on it, giving us there nod for there approval just like gary lineker does for walkers


if it was a product like the secs board then id agree its the bollox of a product but this seems to be a ecu thats just got the ability to be self mapped,,,,,,,,,, that to me sounds like buying a cosworth with the ability to have others drive it,,, not the reason why i bought my cossie and aint gonna be a reason for me to buy this product


infact it sounds almost like its been reconditioned


fact of the matter is i can buy a l8 ecu and get stu to map it and firt a coil pack board for less money than me buying this and live mapping it blind with the help of a busy guy at the other end of the phone,,,,,,


good luck wioth the product, maybe i dont uinderstand th point of it


its just i have no interest in learning how to map a car,,,,,, cheaper and easier to get a pro to do it

just like spraying my car tbh,,,,,,,, apart from thats alot easier to biodge and the car will still be able to drive,,,,,,, as i said though, i could be looking at this wrong

 

just for dave

waffle waffle waffle

 

what do you mean .lol... the level8 is alot better than the secs s8 and alot less hastle too i seen it with my own eyes and few days ago

Marco

 

marco polo,

When did you become an electronics and software expert then

If its the car I think it is, that was the FIRST one ever made and much has
changed technically since that was manufacturered.

At least I have the skills to make products and I know I lack business
sense before anyone says it yet again. LOL

Having said that, I sold the design and rights to the product two months ago.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



What ever anyone think of me, or my past products is irrelivant here but
having tried to crack the same area of plug and play, Price does matter
a great deal (service too before anyone reminds me).

I pretty much agree with most things said by MarkK (and Ginge )

This product is overpriced for the market it is aimed at and everyone
seems to forget you have to have a donor L8 which adds at least £250
to the price if you have to buy one or one you cant sell which you
would have had if an aftermarket ecu.

Coilpack ability should be a STANDARD feature.

Autronic and Pectel look very good when you compare price and features
and I am not in anyway slating the RP labs product, I would rather
have 100% new electronics with all the extras for that price !

Most people just want their car to go faster and the ecu type/make is
irrelivant as they all do the same job in the end.
Its all down to the mapper !

Which is why the standard L8 live mapped is just as good once installed.

If I was sinicle the only reason I can see this being usefull is for
Harvey to get rid of his pectel/ahmed handcuffs but that cant be true......




...... can it ?


All IMO off course.

 

[quote="madevelopments"]
sorry mark thought it had to be converted to single tooth for some reason

 

some of you have hit upon a major point of this product

namely that at the moment there are very few tuners who have the equipment/software/knowledge to live map cossie ecu's. with this product, that choice of which tuner you use only becomes limited by your choice and faith in their ability, and not with what equipment that they have invested in.

so you could then take your cossie with a plug and play ecu for cheap installation to a tuner of your choice, just as an example Mark Shead of MAD, who may happen to be local to you and you believe and trust in their abilities.

why am i doing Mike's marketing here?

 

Sorry you chose the wrong example, Unless it has Autronic on the box I will not map it.

Mark

 

i paid Ryan a very small amount to fit mine which was saved me a lot of money