Anyone know what the most powerful FWD in the UK is?
#81
Rod - I'm not saying any different.
However, surely the goal and the marque of the car have equal measure?
You wanted to do 200mph, and love Cosworths, so you did it in one of them. You probably could easily have done it in a Skyline if you'd have wanted, but you wanted to do it in a RWD Cossie..... That I can understand. The car has a performance pedigree, motorsport heritage, proper application of power through the rear wheels etc
I just don't "get" the FWD thing though - at least in your car, you claim to be able to use it on the road, and put the power down (obviously appreciating yo have to be careful with it) - in FWD, you are ALWAYS limited, except at the point where it doesn't much matter. It just seems wasted to have plenty of power and the inability to lay it down, except for at the top end, where you start approaching safety issues, and the almost impossibility of using that power on the road in FWD format.
Still, different strokes for different folks - personally I wouldn't want to do 190 mph in a Ford Fiesta. No interest whatsoever. You do. Well done.
I prefer my cars to go round corners fast as well, but if you didn't build your car or anyone else doesn't build theirs for that, then fair enough. I'm not knocking FWD application "per se", but it will always be trailing what COULD be done with that power in a different application. If that option is available, it seems strange not to take it.......
Oh, and as for the little "open your eyes and engage brain" remarks, even though it's unlike me, I'll ignore those, whilst I rest easy that that's one particular field I don't have issue with. I, however, cannot speak on anyone else's behalf
However, surely the goal and the marque of the car have equal measure?
You wanted to do 200mph, and love Cosworths, so you did it in one of them. You probably could easily have done it in a Skyline if you'd have wanted, but you wanted to do it in a RWD Cossie..... That I can understand. The car has a performance pedigree, motorsport heritage, proper application of power through the rear wheels etc
I just don't "get" the FWD thing though - at least in your car, you claim to be able to use it on the road, and put the power down (obviously appreciating yo have to be careful with it) - in FWD, you are ALWAYS limited, except at the point where it doesn't much matter. It just seems wasted to have plenty of power and the inability to lay it down, except for at the top end, where you start approaching safety issues, and the almost impossibility of using that power on the road in FWD format.
Still, different strokes for different folks - personally I wouldn't want to do 190 mph in a Ford Fiesta. No interest whatsoever. You do. Well done.
I prefer my cars to go round corners fast as well, but if you didn't build your car or anyone else doesn't build theirs for that, then fair enough. I'm not knocking FWD application "per se", but it will always be trailing what COULD be done with that power in a different application. If that option is available, it seems strange not to take it.......
Oh, and as for the little "open your eyes and engage brain" remarks, even though it's unlike me, I'll ignore those, whilst I rest easy that that's one particular field I don't have issue with. I, however, cannot speak on anyone else's behalf
#82
one of the reasons i want a high powered fwd car is something your missing pon
there safe
600bhp throw the front wheels mid corner is not good loads of understear but SAFE
600bhp throw the rear wheels mid corner well time to say goodnight
there safe
600bhp throw the front wheels mid corner is not good loads of understear but SAFE
600bhp throw the rear wheels mid corner well time to say goodnight
#83
Originally Posted by RichardPON
but you wanted to do it in a RWD Cossie..... That I can understand. The car has a performance pedigree, motorsport heritage
but can you answer me why someone elses achievments has anything to do with what someone chooses to do to there car ??????
#84
Good thread
Ive been helping Andy with his red bubble over winter.
I've designed and made a new inlet manifold for him, and he's now using a new improved nitrous set up, new intercooler and a few other mods which should see alot more power and torque this year
Lots of other things changed too
New rubber should see at least another .5 sec of the time, I reckon at least another 1 sec but Andy reckons .5, I hope the gearbox can take it
Andy should be seeing into the 700 bhp plus range without NOS but how do you measure such a monster?
AET are on with there wheel attachment dyno cell which should be completed soon so Andy will be playing on there for a bit, sorting out the mapping. (he works for them)
Been to see Ian Howell recently who is making slow but sure progress with his 2.3 chain driven Duratec Focus, Been helping him with a new inlet too
His car will be a monster when completed and will see 700bhp plus on pump gas without NOS.
IMHO there are only two people in the FWD game this year and that is Andy and Ian. They both have the right type of engines capable of delivering the type of horsepower for the job, 700bhp+
Horsepower = Good Times
Horsepower is all to do with headflow.
Without going into too much detail Ians is 180 plus cfm at 10" of water at .5" lift
Andy's is also similar by comparison
Anyone running a zetec engine, me included will be lucky to get over 150cfm due to the design of the head, (my head is done by the same person as Sunny's and Paul J's and has larger valves etc.). This equates to 500 ish, black top heads are better than silver top heads for flow, proven.
(Sunny / Paul no disrespect intended)
Jamie from Jamsport might stand a good chance as he has the ST170 engine which is a good base and can flow over 180cfm if fettled correctly. This should see over 600bhp + if speced correctly.
Traction is a major key factor with this type of power which both Andy and Ian have addressed correctly. (Big fat tyres from America).
Be prepared to see some interesting times this year, all for the better I hope
Ive been helping Andy with his red bubble over winter.
I've designed and made a new inlet manifold for him, and he's now using a new improved nitrous set up, new intercooler and a few other mods which should see alot more power and torque this year
Lots of other things changed too
New rubber should see at least another .5 sec of the time, I reckon at least another 1 sec but Andy reckons .5, I hope the gearbox can take it
Andy should be seeing into the 700 bhp plus range without NOS but how do you measure such a monster?
AET are on with there wheel attachment dyno cell which should be completed soon so Andy will be playing on there for a bit, sorting out the mapping. (he works for them)
Been to see Ian Howell recently who is making slow but sure progress with his 2.3 chain driven Duratec Focus, Been helping him with a new inlet too
His car will be a monster when completed and will see 700bhp plus on pump gas without NOS.
IMHO there are only two people in the FWD game this year and that is Andy and Ian. They both have the right type of engines capable of delivering the type of horsepower for the job, 700bhp+
Horsepower = Good Times
Horsepower is all to do with headflow.
Without going into too much detail Ians is 180 plus cfm at 10" of water at .5" lift
Andy's is also similar by comparison
Anyone running a zetec engine, me included will be lucky to get over 150cfm due to the design of the head, (my head is done by the same person as Sunny's and Paul J's and has larger valves etc.). This equates to 500 ish, black top heads are better than silver top heads for flow, proven.
(Sunny / Paul no disrespect intended)
Jamie from Jamsport might stand a good chance as he has the ST170 engine which is a good base and can flow over 180cfm if fettled correctly. This should see over 600bhp + if speced correctly.
Traction is a major key factor with this type of power which both Andy and Ian have addressed correctly. (Big fat tyres from America).
Be prepared to see some interesting times this year, all for the better I hope
#86
i found my erst very annoying for traction .. i was talking to mark about a huge power hike 4 years ago ..
but decided to have a car i could drive in the pouring rain instead ...
i just got bored of not having traction when i wanted it....
but decided to have a car i could drive in the pouring rain instead ...
i just got bored of not having traction when i wanted it....
#87
Originally Posted by sbd16v
there safe
600bhp throw the front wheels mid corner is not good loads of understear but SAFE
600bhp throw the front wheels mid corner is not good loads of understear but SAFE
#88
Rob - I'm not knocking what anyone wants to do with their car. If they have money to spend, and want to do something with said car for their own enjoyment, then you can't say fairer than that.
Can't see your point about FWD being "safe" in the slightest though.....
600bhp throw the front wheels mid corner is not good loads of understear but SAFE and SLOW
600bhp throw the rear wheels mid corner well time to say goodnight - WHY?
As much as you FWD boys harp on about "tempering the power", then the same must be true for RWD as well. What makes that unsafe?
Can't see your point about FWD being "safe" in the slightest though.....
600bhp throw the front wheels mid corner is not good loads of understear but SAFE and SLOW
600bhp throw the rear wheels mid corner well time to say goodnight - WHY?
As much as you FWD boys harp on about "tempering the power", then the same must be true for RWD as well. What makes that unsafe?
#89
Originally Posted by RichardPON
As much as you FWD boys harp on about "tempering the power", then the same must be true for RWD as well. What makes that unsafe?
Two things:
1) When you put too much power down in a bend on a fwd car and feel it understeer you back off and it behaves itself, in a RWD car if you are already sideways backing off doesnt just bring it back inline again, so it kind of is easier to drive FWD and get away with the occasional mistake.
2) Rob is used to FWD, and i think thats the main thing, whatever you are used to feels "right" to you and seems safer
Personally im pretty much used to fwd or rwd, so im fairly impartial, to me though, 600bhp in the wet is not a good idea with either.
Personally if i was after a car to drive fast in the wet then i would have a 300bhp imprezza or evo probably.
#90
Originally Posted by Lambchop
Originally Posted by sbd16v
there safe
600bhp throw the front wheels mid corner is not good loads of understear but SAFE
600bhp throw the front wheels mid corner is not good loads of understear but SAFE
yeh i think its safer than traveling backwards into the same trafic
how many ppl have not been acting like an idiot has spun a fwd car on
the road ???
now how many ppl have been caught out by the spinning a rwd car in the same sort of not messing about way ???
i am sure more ppl have spun rwd cars with normal driving that fwd
#92
I agree with that - inherent understeer in FWD application will always be safer on the road, BUT that assumes that RWD is unsafe!
So many people who spin cars like RWD saffs etc do so because they're running on shonky tyres, 15 year old suspension, car's too low, limited driving skill etc........
Remember, in the grand scheme of motoring history, FWD is a relatively recent addition.......
So many people who spin cars like RWD saffs etc do so because they're running on shonky tyres, 15 year old suspension, car's too low, limited driving skill etc........
Remember, in the grand scheme of motoring history, FWD is a relatively recent addition.......
#93
Originally Posted by RichardPON
I agree with that - inherent understeer in FWD application will always be safer on the road, BUT that assumes that RWD is unsafe!
So many people who spin cars like RWD saffs etc do so because they're running on shonky tyres, 15 year old suspension, car's too low, limited driving skill etc........
Remember, in the grand scheme of motoring history, FWD is a relatively recent addition.......
So many people who spin cars like RWD saffs etc do so because they're running on shonky tyres, 15 year old suspension, car's too low, limited driving skill etc........
Remember, in the grand scheme of motoring history, FWD is a relatively recent addition.......
A dodgy set of tyres is no worse than a patch of diesel on the road or some mud etc, i know good drivers in well setup RWD cars who have still lost it down coutnry lanes due to unforeseen circumstances like that when a FWD car would have got away with it.
#94
Originally Posted by RichardPON
, limited driving skill etc........
that sums alot up really dont it
i am imo safe in my 400bhp + astra its a safe car and i can handle it
if i bought a rwd cossie i would not be safe and would not be able to handle the kind of power it would take to give me like for like performance on the road
and tbh i dont think handling comes much into play in on the road as you can only go as fast as you can see
#95
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From: Under the water.... .......in a nuclear submarine
Originally Posted by sbd16v
Originally Posted by RichardPON
, limited driving skill etc........
that sums alot up really dont it
i am imo safe in my 400bhp + astra its a safe car and i can handle it
if i bought a rwd cossie i would not be safe and would not be able to handle the kind of power it would take to give me like for like performance on the road
and tbh i dont think handling comes much into play in on the road as you can only go as fast as you can see
#96
I left the track more times in a single day at bedford in a low powered 325i than i ever have on track in big power FWD cars, where i have only ever had a couple of excursions on the grass in 15 years of trackdays.
The reason?
rwd just encourages hooligan behaviour, im not safe in anything RWD cause im permenantly arsing about in any RWD car i drive, but in a FWD car its so boring in terms of what happens when you break traction (ie ploughing straight on) that with the exception of a bit of excessive "lift off oversteer" i always driven FWD cars far more in a way that promotes me having a chance of staying on the track.
Thats a big part of the reason so many RWD cars get totalled i think, cause sideways is fun
The reason?
rwd just encourages hooligan behaviour, im not safe in anything RWD cause im permenantly arsing about in any RWD car i drive, but in a FWD car its so boring in terms of what happens when you break traction (ie ploughing straight on) that with the exception of a bit of excessive "lift off oversteer" i always driven FWD cars far more in a way that promotes me having a chance of staying on the track.
Thats a big part of the reason so many RWD cars get totalled i think, cause sideways is fun
#97
Originally Posted by B9KOS
Originally Posted by sbd16v
Originally Posted by RichardPON
, limited driving skill etc........
that sums alot up really dont it
i am imo safe in my 400bhp + astra its a safe car and i can handle it
if i bought a rwd cossie i would not be safe and would not be able to handle the kind of power it would take to give me like for like performance on the road
and tbh i dont think handling comes much into play in on the road as you can only go as fast as you can see
#98
aka Turbosailorboy
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From: Under the water.... .......in a nuclear submarine
Originally Posted by chip-3door
I left the track more times in a single day at bedford in a low powered 325i than i ever have on track in big power FWD cars, where i have only ever had a couple of excursions on the grass in 15 years of trackdays.
The reason?
rwd just encourages hooligan behaviour, im not safe in anything RWD cause im permenantly arsing about in any RWD car i drive, but in a FWD car its so boring in terms of what happens when you break traction (ie ploughing straight on) that with the exception of a bit of excessive "lift off oversteer" i always driven FWD cars far more in a way that promotes me having a chance of staying on the track.
Thats a big part of the reason so many RWD cars get totalled i think, cause sideways is fun
The reason?
rwd just encourages hooligan behaviour, im not safe in anything RWD cause im permenantly arsing about in any RWD car i drive, but in a FWD car its so boring in terms of what happens when you break traction (ie ploughing straight on) that with the exception of a bit of excessive "lift off oversteer" i always driven FWD cars far more in a way that promotes me having a chance of staying on the track.
Thats a big part of the reason so many RWD cars get totalled i think, cause sideways is fun
Pulled the Yoko 008Rs off the rims on my Mini after a few laps of the local roundabout
#99
aka Turbosailorboy
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From: Under the water.... .......in a nuclear submarine
Originally Posted by sbd16v
Originally Posted by B9KOS
Originally Posted by sbd16v
Originally Posted by RichardPON
, limited driving skill etc........
that sums alot up really dont it
i am imo safe in my 400bhp + astra its a safe car and i can handle it
if i bought a rwd cossie i would not be safe and would not be able to handle the kind of power it would take to give me like for like performance on the road
and tbh i dont think handling comes much into play in on the road as you can only go as fast as you can see
#100
Originally Posted by sbd16v
Originally Posted by B9KOS
Originally Posted by sbd16v
Originally Posted by RichardPON
, limited driving skill etc........
that sums alot up really dont it
i am imo safe in my 400bhp + astra its a safe car and i can handle it
if i bought a rwd cossie i would not be safe and would not be able to handle the kind of power it would take to give me like for like performance on the road
and tbh i dont think handling comes much into play in on the road as you can only go as fast as you can see
5 in 400 miles wasnt it?
#101
Originally Posted by chip-3door
Originally Posted by sbd16v
Originally Posted by B9KOS
Originally Posted by sbd16v
Originally Posted by RichardPON
, limited driving skill etc........
that sums alot up really dont it
i am imo safe in my 400bhp + astra its a safe car and i can handle it
if i bought a rwd cossie i would not be safe and would not be able to handle the kind of power it would take to give me like for like performance on the road
and tbh i dont think handling comes much into play in on the road as you can only go as fast as you can see
5 in 400 miles wasnt it?
one of them was just under 2 miles
#102
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From: Essex... and Birmingham!
Originally Posted by sbd16v
i like to knock off one of the boxes as it brings down the stats so 4 boxes lasted me about 40 miles
one of them was just under 2 miles
I know you may have had a few cheap boxes and one that would handle the power would be more but what a complete waste of time and effort!
Or do you enjoy changing them? if so then cool
#103
Originally Posted by Porkie
Originally Posted by sbd16v
i like to knock off one of the boxes as it brings down the stats so 4 boxes lasted me about 40 miles
one of them was just under 2 miles
I know you may have had a few cheap boxes and one that would handle the power would be more but what a complete waste of time and effort!
Or do you enjoy changing them? if so then cool
We even changed one on my parents driveway for a spare one i had at my workshop when he broke one whilst he was visting their house with me
Disposable items, LOL
Luckily the 6 speed it has in it now is a LOT stronger
#104
A good topic, I think the problem with most RST`s i see on here is they spend good money on an engine,turbo,chrome,wheels,exhaust and only recently proper uprated gear boxes. No real effort is put into the handling of the car or the ability to put the power down. If i was gonna build a car that had 400bhp going through a chassis originally designed for 132bhp then I would spend money on things such as:
Strengthening the shell, fully adjustable shocks, roll cage, every single suspension/geometry part replaced with uprated items, replace the old knackered steering rack, brake lines, corner weights etc..
The sad things is, most by a set of koni shocks, lower the car and fit 250bhp engine setup and a second hand set of bigger brakes and leave it at that.
I would dare say that a well setup 250bhp rst, with real traction of the line, gears optimised for the power and size of wheels used would destroy most 300bhp cars down the 1/4 using the "old tried and tested" methods.
Strengthening the shell, fully adjustable shocks, roll cage, every single suspension/geometry part replaced with uprated items, replace the old knackered steering rack, brake lines, corner weights etc..
The sad things is, most by a set of koni shocks, lower the car and fit 250bhp engine setup and a second hand set of bigger brakes and leave it at that.
I would dare say that a well setup 250bhp rst, with real traction of the line, gears optimised for the power and size of wheels used would destroy most 300bhp cars down the 1/4 using the "old tried and tested" methods.
#105
Originally Posted by sbd16v
Originally Posted by Lambchop
Originally Posted by sbd16v
there safe
600bhp throw the front wheels mid corner is not good loads of understear but SAFE
600bhp throw the front wheels mid corner is not good loads of understear but SAFE
yeh i think its safer than traveling backwards into the same trafic
how many ppl have not been acting like an idiot has spun a fwd car on
the road ???
now how many ppl have been caught out by the spinning a rwd car in the same sort of not messing about way ???
i am sure more ppl have spun rwd cars with normal driving that fwd
so i think you mean its safeR than rwd but its certainly not safe thats for sure!
I cant begin to imagine what 600bhp must be like to drive never mind in fwd
fair play if thats your bag but stg3 cossie power will do me for now
#107
A FWD car that I know of made over 800bhp last weekend on a dyno with 75bhp of gas.
Not turned up fully either yet. LOL
Can't say who it is but should be entertaining at TOTB this year.
Not turned up fully either yet. LOL
Can't say who it is but should be entertaining at TOTB this year.
#115
Originally Posted by matt p
Dean hollinworths R5gtt is 329bhp still being run it at the mo.
Also a 5 on the rtoc forum ran a 11.2 in oct last year
was there at the pod and blimey does it shift
Also a 5 on the rtoc forum ran a 11.2 in oct last year
was there at the pod and blimey does it shift
On road tyres the same fastest cars are doing mid 12's which still aint bad for a 1.4 pushrod engine.
#117
They are great fun, and cheap to tune, mines just a track car, got laguna 2ltr engine going into it as the R5 engine is just so behind the times now. It was a bit tight though N/A at the minute but will be turbo charging it.
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