Ford Sierra/Sapphire/RS500 Cosworth This forum is for discussion of all things pertaining to the Ford Sierra Cosworth.

Sierra 2.8 not revving

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 23-02-2012, 11:03 PM
  #1  
langer
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
langer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: dunfermline
Posts: 682
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Sierra 2.8 not revving

Iam near to pulling my hair out now as to what it
could be as iam running out of ideas any advice would be greatly
appreciated.* Just a run down on what I've done.* I bought the car
after it stood a number of years as a none runner, drained the fuel
from the tank (which was basically an orange colour and stunk), blew
out the lines, changed the fuel filter, checked the timing, changed the
plugs, leads, and rotor arm,* oil and filter change (know nothing to do
with it but just as it had been sitting), now changed the metering head
and the injectors.
The car does tick over eventually but runs like a
bag of bolts and not on all cylinders and sounds terrible, will not rev
up when tried how ever if I remove the air filter lid and filter and
put my had in and operate the metering flap whilst revving the car it
revs out no problem* and sounds amazing. This is what made me think it
was a metering head fault. Is there any other unit on or around the
engine that could cause this? What's the unit that's next to the power
steering bottle with 2 fuel pipes on it and an electrical terminal.
Old 24-02-2012, 06:31 AM
  #2  
Tommen
My pet is Moonstone blue!
 
Tommen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 201
Received 4 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by langer
Iam near to pulling my hair out now as to what it
could be as iam running out of ideas any advice would be greatly
appreciated.* Just a run down on what I've done.* I bought the car
after it stood a number of years as a none runner, drained the fuel
from the tank (which was basically an orange colour and stunk), blew
out the lines, changed the fuel filter, checked the timing, changed the
plugs, leads, and rotor arm,* oil and filter change (know nothing to do
with it but just as it had been sitting), now changed the metering head
and the injectors.
The car does tick over eventually but runs like a
bag of bolts and not on all cylinders and sounds terrible, will not rev
up when tried how ever if I remove the air filter lid and filter and
put my had in and operate the metering flap whilst revving the car it
revs out no problem* and sounds amazing. This is what made me think it
was a metering head fault. Is there any other unit on or around the
engine that could cause this? What's the unit that's next to the power
steering bottle with 2 fuel pipes on it and an electrical terminal.
I had the same problem..
And a new fuel pump solved the problem!
Old 24-02-2012, 08:35 AM
  #3  
YOREVOL
YOREVOL
 
YOREVOL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: HUDDERSFIELD
Posts: 1,280
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

sounds like you are describing the warm up regulator. k-jet is a fickle system and needs clean fuel throughout the system. if any "dead" fuel has got into the components you have problems. is the replacement metering head known to be good? i dont think its a fuel supply problem as it revs when you move the flap by hand. have you checked for air leaks on the inlet side?
Old 24-02-2012, 09:21 PM
  #4  
GVK.
PassionFord Post Whore!!
 
GVK.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Lincs.
Posts: 4,828
Received 116 Likes on 109 Posts
Default

As above - Air leaks on inlet manifold/valley gasket could cause it, any splits on the air intake hose from throttle body to metering head also.
Old 24-02-2012, 09:53 PM
  #5  
langer
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
langer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: dunfermline
Posts: 682
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Thanks for your comments so far. I didn't think it was a supply issue as it's been said it runs sweet when moving the air /fuel flap by hand, as the metering head being in good working order this is the second one I've tried both with the same outcome and were bought as removed from running vehicles. I've checked the pipe from the metering head to engine and it's fine, again thought of that. It's like it's not creating a vacuum when iam trying to rev it for it to open the air/fuel flap. What is the unit that's next to the power steering bottle on the engine it has 2 fuel pipes an electrical plug on it and a vacuum hose.
Old 24-02-2012, 10:19 PM
  #6  
GVK.
PassionFord Post Whore!!
 
GVK.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Lincs.
Posts: 4,828
Received 116 Likes on 109 Posts
Default

I haven't seen under the bonnet of one for years....Sounds like warm up regulator (WUR) this -



http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/l...ilkaye/wur.jpg

- it's got an ignition feed to it that heats up a bi-metallic strip inside. Alters the control pressure , vac pipe controls a diaphragm inside for different loads. Can be adjusted...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58I2C...eature=related

Really needs K-jet fuel pressure gauges for testing on these as you have delivery pressure from pump and control pressure that is controlled by the WUR.


Found this too http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...R)-Calibration

http://www.golfgtiforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=31611.0

k-jet info here - http://www.auto-solve.com/mech_inj.htm

Last edited by GVK.; 24-02-2012 at 11:11 PM.
Old 24-02-2012, 11:05 PM
  #7  
GVK.
PassionFord Post Whore!!
 
GVK.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Lincs.
Posts: 4,828
Received 116 Likes on 109 Posts
Default

Waffle..

15.1.8 The Airflow Sensor

The airflow sensor, in most cases, is located on the air filter housing and is responsible for measuring the amount of air entering the engine. The sensor housing is conical in shape, into which the airflow sensor plate is fitted. The airflow sensor plate lifts as the throttle is opened by the incoming air.
The amount of lift is proportional to the volume of air entering the engine. The shape and angle of the cone will determine this ratio.
A neutral plate position is normally level with the bottom of the cone, this is adjustable by bending a small clip / spring that acts as a stop at the bottom of the unit. The purpose of this spring is to allow the flap to move beyond its neutral position to allow excessive pressure to escape if the engine was to backfire, passing a large volume of air back into the air filter housing.
If the system did not have this facility the pressure could split or blow off the rubber air trunking. Any splits or ill fitting air hoses that allow unmonitored air into the engine require rectification.
As the airflow lifts the sensor plate this subsequencially lifts the control plunger - the higher the lift the greater the amount of fuel delivered to the injectors.

To adjust the fuel mixture a small 3 mm Allen screw is located within the airflow sensor; this alters the relationship between the sensor arm and the control plunger. Turning the screw clockwise enriches the mixture and vice-versa. It should be noted that the screw should be turned in very small increments and the Allen key should be removed before the engine speed is raised.

NOTE :- Failure to remove the Allen key, before starting the engine, can result in damage to the airflow sensing unit.



15.1.9 The Fuel Distribution Unit

This unit delivers the correct amount of fuel to the engine via the injectors referencing to the airflow sensor plate height. As the sensor plate is lifted with inducted air volume, the control plunger is lifted proportionately, exposing small slits within the fuel distributor's barrel assembly. The barrel assembly has a series (one for each cylinder) of small slits that are machined into the barrel, and it is through these openings that the fuel passes en-route to the injector.
The width of these metered slits is only 0.2 mm across and it is this dimension, together with the plunger height, that determines the fuel delivery rate to the injectors.

At low engine speed the air volume into the engine will be minimal, this will only raise the plunger a small amount giving the requisite quantity of fuel for these engine conditions. As the throttle is opened and fuel demand is higher, the plate raises, which in turn lifts the plunger and a higher volume of fuel is delivered to the engine to match the air. The lift on the plunger will be proportionate to the air volume, this will however be exaggerated during the warm-up period when additional fuel is required by reducing the pressure acting onto the top of the control plunger.

This pressure is called the control pressure (as it controls the lift of the plunger under different operating temperatures) and is determined by the warm-up-regulator.

15.1.10 The Warm-up-Regulator

This simple device is responsible for controlling the amount of fuel delivered to the engine during it's warm-up period. The pressure acting upon the top of the control plunger varies depending on the engine temperature and provides an effective method of enrichment.
The control pressure is tapped off from the primary pressure circuit in the metering head's lower chamber through a tiny restrictive hole which gives it the ability to differentiate between the two pressures. A flexible pipe then connects the control plunger gallery to the warm-up-regulator and returns back to the metering head to a connection next to the primary pressure regulator's transfer valve. This valve is in the circuit to close the fuel from the control circuit when the engine is off, avoiding the total loss of system pressure while the engine is stationary.

The internals of the warm-up-regulator are quite simple comprising an inlet and outlet port, a stainless steel shim, a bi-metalic heated strip and a spring.

The input to the warm-up-regulator flows into a small chamber in the top of the unit, its return is through a small drilling and back to the metering head. By controlling this return flow it will cause a change in pressure acting on the top of the control plunger. With a cold engine the flow must be fairly free giving it a lower pressure. This will allow a higher lift of the plunger which in turn will enrich the mixture under these conditions. The free flow is obtained by the internal bi-metalic strip exerting a downward pressure on the spring which decreases the pressure acting upon the shim, this lower force allows the fuel to flow almost uninterrupted.

As the bi-metalic strip is heated, by either it's heater element or natural heat soak from the engine, the downward pressure acting on the spring is gradually decreased, increasing the force of the spring, which in turn increases the control pressure.

Typical cold engine control pressure will be as low as 1.0 bar increasing over approx. 10 minutes to around 3.5 bar. Some warm-up-regulators have a vacuum connection that will sense a drop in vacuum and lower the control pressure during these acceleration periods.

The voltage supply to the regulator is from the fuel pump relay, because if the ignition was on without the engine running, all enrichment would be removed as the bi-metalic strip would be heated prematurely and the driver would not benefit from the cold engine enrichment.

The two pipes that connect to the warm-up-regulator have different sized 'banjo unions' to avoid them being connected incorrectly. The control pressures quoted are as an example only and reference should be made to the technical data as these pressures can be specific to the part number located on the unit's housing.
This unit will have a resistance value of approximately 20 to 26 Ohms.

NOTE :- it is important to disconnect the electrical connection to the unit before any pressure testing on the control circuit is performed as this will prematurely heat the bi-metalic strip and cold control pressures will not be available.
Good info here (BMW specific but principle still the same)

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...37&postcount=6

Last edited by GVK.; 24-02-2012 at 11:23 PM.
Old 25-02-2012, 12:07 AM
  #8  
langer
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
langer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: dunfermline
Posts: 682
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Thankyou very much fir taking the time to find this out, Some very good info on their unfortunatly I haven't the testing equipment needed to test it and (dont laugh) quite easily baffled when it comes to figures ie pressure quantities etc. Don't understand how anything like that should be out of their limits enough to cause this. The part I described is definatly the warm up regulator mines slightly different to the one in the picture as mine has a vacuum pipe going to the plennium chamber. Could the warm up regulator be at fault to cause this? Am I right in thinking reading the info it gets a better pressure when unplugged as it cools down? Is this just a 12v feed and an earth supply to this as I've never checked any power supplies etc. Iam feeling iam just missing something probably totally obvious and someone will just say yeah it's so and so lol. Had heard somewhere that a certain pressure had to be equal at either side or something for it to work but unsure of what it was. I just can't get my head round why it works when manually working the metering head as said before it's as if there's no vacuum being created in the plenium chamber for it to pull the metering head open for it to work it's self, when pulling the throttle on in kind of gurgles but doesn't pull the flap. I'd even thought of actual timing but the fact it runs sweet when forcing it to revs kind of says otherwise.
Old 25-02-2012, 12:11 PM
  #9  
GVK.
PassionFord Post Whore!!
 
GVK.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Lincs.
Posts: 4,828
Received 116 Likes on 109 Posts
Default

Normally it's fed 12v by fuel pump relay. Check with engine running if it's got power.

TBH using gauges is the only way to see if it's working properly, you could try another known good one to rule it out of course. You mention yours has vac pipe, is there vacuum on the pipe?

Been mentioned already,but have you checked all the breather pipes, servo pipe and servo (block pipe to it to rule it out) , injector seals , manifold gaskets and any vac pipes on the inlet/plenum for leaks?

Don't rule anything out, timing, compression etc.

Easy to think, 'it's not that' but until you find the fault, it could be anything!

Last edited by GVK.; 25-02-2012 at 12:17 PM.
Old 26-02-2012, 07:35 PM
  #10  
langer
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
langer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: dunfermline
Posts: 682
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Yeah there's a good vacuum on the pipe. Checked all others for leaks/splits etc nothing obvious to see normally hear a air leak or a squirt/spray of brake cleaner adjusts the revs but nothing happening.? Going to take the tank off next and make sure there's nothing left in it got a fuel pump and a warm up regulator coming might as well chuck them on it lol
Old 05-03-2012, 10:31 PM
  #11  
GVK.
PassionFord Post Whore!!
 
GVK.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Lincs.
Posts: 4,828
Received 116 Likes on 109 Posts
Default

Is it revving yet???
Old 05-03-2012, 11:47 PM
  #12  
langer
Too many posts.. I need a life!!
Thread Starter
iTrader: (1)
 
langer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: dunfermline
Posts: 682
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

No not yet not had a chance to get it back in again since I changed the injectors and metering head. I've ordered a second hand warm up regulator and fuel pump to chuck on to try. Loosing interest in it lol. Needs to be done though. Hopefully get the parts soon then going to take the fuel tank off completely and flush it out before fitting them
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
chowfornow
Ford Non RS / XR / ST parts for sale.
14
05-01-2019 09:01 PM
abz474
Cars for Sale
9
01-11-2015 06:53 PM
Daniel Howard
Ford Classics & Vintage
2
03-10-2015 10:44 PM
XR4
Ford XR Range
0
01-10-2015 12:46 PM
Fil
General Car Related Discussion.
6
30-09-2015 12:08 PM



Quick Reply: Sierra 2.8 not revving



All times are GMT. The time now is 01:07 AM.