What's your opinion about this setup on sapphire 4x4
01-01-2011, 12:46 PM
#1
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What's your opinion about this setup on sapphire 4x4
Soon i'm gonna get my engine back from the machine shop and then it's assembly time. 
After a lot of consideration about driveability and bhp vs. $$ and gearbox/diff. durability, i've made up my mind about the following setup:
6 Long studded 200 block
91,3mm shorter wössner pistons with valve cut outs and 8:1 cr
Longer (136 mm) H-beam rods with arp bolts
Fully balanced bottom end
Organic sachs cluth (rated to 520 NM)
Ported head + inlet trumpets
Cometic head gasket
10 mm plenumspacer
Piper "fast road" inlet cam which is a lot similar to BD10
Standard exhaust cam
Vernier pulleys
2wd exhaust manifold
GT3076 turbo with .63 ex housing and .60 compressor housing
071 plugs
Siemens 55s
044 pump
MSD chip
RS500 style intercooler
Samco hoses
ITG foam filter
3" mongoose
E-boost street boostcontroller
The pistons and rods are from an auction i won on ebay, and i think they are ok for the rest of the setup.
I've also considered BD14 inlet cam, .82 ex housing, 83s and another inlet manifold, but i think i would regret this due to the increased lag.
My plan is to keep the boostpressure at around 22-24 psi to protect the gearbox and diffs. which is standard. This i think will put out 400-420 bhp.
The only thing i'm not sure about yet, are the injectors. I already have the 55s from my old setup, but they are only good for 430-450 bhp.
But i guess thats also more than enough if i want the gearbox to last. Or am i totally of track here? I'm not gonna make any aggresive starts with launchcontrol....
My plan is to fit the oppliger semi-cut gears in my gearbox later on, but haven't got the $$ for it yet.
After a lot of consideration about driveability and bhp vs. $$ and gearbox/diff. durability, i've made up my mind about the following setup:
6 Long studded 200 block
91,3mm shorter wössner pistons with valve cut outs and 8:1 cr
Longer (136 mm) H-beam rods with arp bolts
Fully balanced bottom end
Organic sachs cluth (rated to 520 NM)
Ported head + inlet trumpets
Cometic head gasket
10 mm plenumspacer
Piper "fast road" inlet cam which is a lot similar to BD10
Standard exhaust cam
Vernier pulleys
2wd exhaust manifold
GT3076 turbo with .63 ex housing and .60 compressor housing
071 plugs
Siemens 55s
044 pump
MSD chip
RS500 style intercooler
Samco hoses
ITG foam filter
3" mongoose
E-boost street boostcontroller
The pistons and rods are from an auction i won on ebay, and i think they are ok for the rest of the setup.
I've also considered BD14 inlet cam, .82 ex housing, 83s and another inlet manifold, but i think i would regret this due to the increased lag.
My plan is to keep the boostpressure at around 22-24 psi to protect the gearbox and diffs. which is standard. This i think will put out 400-420 bhp.
The only thing i'm not sure about yet, are the injectors. I already have the 55s from my old setup, but they are only good for 430-450 bhp.
But i guess thats also more than enough if i want the gearbox to last. Or am i totally of track here? I'm not gonna make any aggresive starts with launchcontrol....
My plan is to fit the oppliger semi-cut gears in my gearbox later on, but haven't got the $$ for it yet.
Last edited by Rockhound; 01-01-2011 at 12:53 PM.
01-01-2011, 01:41 PM
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55lb injectors are too small to be used with a GT3076, you'd be much better with 83s.
Your inlet cam choice needs addressing too, as suggested, either a BD14 or BD16 would be a huge improvement.
Edited to say - i've just read that you already have the 55s.
If you're keen to only target low to mid 400's bhp wise then you can easily drop down to a GT3071 to improve the response.
Your inlet cam choice needs addressing too, as suggested, either a BD14 or BD16 would be a huge improvement.
Edited to say - i've just read that you already have the 55s.
If you're keen to only target low to mid 400's bhp wise then you can easily drop down to a GT3071 to improve the response.
Last edited by Big Will_; 01-01-2011 at 01:43 PM. Reason: New Year Hangover.
01-01-2011, 06:19 PM
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Will: Yes i know 55s are too small for that turbo, my old engine actually meltet 2 pistons at 2 bar on the dyno.... It happened so fast that i didn't have time to read the afr gauge, but im sure that it was running to lean. Thats why i was thinking about running with a lower boost pressure. Another thing, It was actually Stu who advised me to 55s after i have mailed with him regarding to the rest of my setup, but at that time i was only aiming for 380 bph and for that i guess they would do fine.
Danny: Yes, a GT3071 would be a better choice i guess... But i already have the turbo, injectors and inlet cam from my old setup. I know the turbo is a bit too big, but i would be sad to ditch it and it is not worth a lot used. And then i have to find another airfilter and inlethose too if i go down in size, so i was hoping to re-use my turbo.
But i have still considered to change the cam and injectors, because i know theres a lot more bhp to gain then. But what about the gearbox and front diff? It would be stupid to ruin the gearbox due to too much torque and bhp. I also have a .82 housing for my turbo, and i agree that it is a tempting to go for 83s, BD16 and .82 housing. Then 500 bph is not far away, but again, what about the gearbox and also the driveability? It's a road car that i use every day except when it's winter. So too much lag is not so great...
Would a BD15 or 16 cam combined with my .82 housing not give significant more lag?
My old setup was very similar to my new, and i changed the exhaust housing from .82 to .63 to get better response at lower rpm. And after a re-calibration of my msd chip it actually worked really well. Full boost at about 4000 rpm where it was at about 4500 before with the .82 housing. I've read in here that some have 500 bhp or more with a turbo similar to mine with .63 housing so why use the .82 house? Of course there is the backpressure problem, but it seems to work ok for some anyway.
Danny: Yes, a GT3071 would be a better choice i guess... But i already have the turbo, injectors and inlet cam from my old setup. I know the turbo is a bit too big, but i would be sad to ditch it and it is not worth a lot used. And then i have to find another airfilter and inlethose too if i go down in size, so i was hoping to re-use my turbo.
But i have still considered to change the cam and injectors, because i know theres a lot more bhp to gain then. But what about the gearbox and front diff? It would be stupid to ruin the gearbox due to too much torque and bhp. I also have a .82 housing for my turbo, and i agree that it is a tempting to go for 83s, BD16 and .82 housing. Then 500 bph is not far away, but again, what about the gearbox and also the driveability? It's a road car that i use every day except when it's winter. So too much lag is not so great...
Would a BD15 or 16 cam combined with my .82 housing not give significant more lag?
My old setup was very similar to my new, and i changed the exhaust housing from .82 to .63 to get better response at lower rpm. And after a re-calibration of my msd chip it actually worked really well. Full boost at about 4000 rpm where it was at about 4500 before with the .82 housing. I've read in here that some have 500 bhp or more with a turbo similar to mine with .63 housing so why use the .82 house? Of course there is the backpressure problem, but it seems to work ok for some anyway.
Last edited by Rockhound; 01-01-2011 at 07:34 PM. Reason: Forgot a few words
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01-01-2011, 07:57 PM
#8
guys my gt series turbo with external waste gate is as responsive as all 3 of my old t34 cars and makes 414bhp and 416lbs with a hole the size of a 5p in my boost pipe and would only hold 1.6bar but its mapped for 2.2bar so much more to come
but im going for a bigger inlet to match the spec and i would listen to danny for hes done the research and testing ...
you have a good spec mate and with small changes it could be the best spec for a cossie
but im going for a bigger inlet to match the spec and i would listen to danny for hes done the research and testing ...
you have a good spec mate and with small changes it could be the best spec for a cossie
01-01-2011, 08:13 PM
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If you have a .82 ex housing for your 76 il swap you that for a 71.82 mate as i have a spare and need a 76 for an engine im doing??
As for the injectors id just sell the 55s and get some 83s..
The hoses are all the same size 76 and 71,all 4 inch so you wont need to change anything there
These turbos work better with boost mate thats what its designed to do make and move lots of air so to get the best from it we run lots of boost and to get rid of all that boost/back pressure the .82 lets it get out quicker than the .63 as that strangles it and can cause surge..
Its all about speccing the engine correct once and once only then you dont have to go through loads of money changing things for the better later..weve already done all that for you by trying these different specs and now know what works with dyno and rr graphs to prove what works and what doesnt..
As for cams the engine will get the boost through it quicker with a std ex cam and a fruity inlet cam and makes for a very torquey drivable engine but wont rev really high but imo on a road car this is an awesome compromise
People that say and think theres are awesome only know how there own car feels with that spec so dont have any comparisons mate so in truth are quick but maybe not as quick as a well specced well built and mapped engine..
I can promise you with the little tips iv said to use with your spec and properly mapped your car will be a misile and you will love it!!
I have an engine that is almost std apart from cam injectors inlet spacer gt3071.82 and im bench dynoing in the next 2 weeks and when i started mapping it before was doing 130lbft at 2k 300 lbft at 4k and that was with 11 psi of boost!!
Once all mapped on link storm ecu at 2.5 bar peak and 2 bar held i think it will be circa 480/480
and will come on song quicker and stronger than my t34.63 380 hp escos..
cheers danny
As for the injectors id just sell the 55s and get some 83s..
The hoses are all the same size 76 and 71,all 4 inch so you wont need to change anything there
These turbos work better with boost mate thats what its designed to do make and move lots of air so to get the best from it we run lots of boost and to get rid of all that boost/back pressure the .82 lets it get out quicker than the .63 as that strangles it and can cause surge..
Its all about speccing the engine correct once and once only then you dont have to go through loads of money changing things for the better later..weve already done all that for you by trying these different specs and now know what works with dyno and rr graphs to prove what works and what doesnt..
As for cams the engine will get the boost through it quicker with a std ex cam and a fruity inlet cam and makes for a very torquey drivable engine but wont rev really high but imo on a road car this is an awesome compromise
People that say and think theres are awesome only know how there own car feels with that spec so dont have any comparisons mate so in truth are quick but maybe not as quick as a well specced well built and mapped engine..
I can promise you with the little tips iv said to use with your spec and properly mapped your car will be a misile and you will love it!!
I have an engine that is almost std apart from cam injectors inlet spacer gt3071.82 and im bench dynoing in the next 2 weeks and when i started mapping it before was doing 130lbft at 2k 300 lbft at 4k and that was with 11 psi of boost!!
Once all mapped on link storm ecu at 2.5 bar peak and 2 bar held i think it will be circa 480/480
and will come on song quicker and stronger than my t34.63 380 hp escos..
cheers danny
The turbo: http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob..._700382_12.htm
The ex. housing: http://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/merchant...egory_Code=GTH
Last edited by Rockhound; 01-01-2011 at 08:28 PM. Reason: Better picture
01-01-2011, 08:37 PM
#11
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But more and more people have 400 bhp or more in their 4x4s, and they can't all have modified gearboxes so maybe it has more to do with the way the car is driven? I guess taking off with launch control is not something the gearbox likes...
03-01-2011, 06:06 PM
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Nice choice of parts mate..
The bottom end will rev very nice with them bits and this also reducs bore and piston wear so goo choice!!
I would go with a fruity inlet cam or atleast a bd16 as mentioned and double valve springs so to let it rev nice..
Also dont use a cometic h/g as a wrc one is only Ł30 more and far better..
As mentioned the turbo is wrongly suited for your hp as its a 550 hp turbo and the .63 actually doesnt work as well as the .82 so lag is actually worse..thats true on the 3071 or the 76 but imo a 3071.82 will be best for you..
You need to suit the turbo to your hp as if you run a bigger turbo at less boost for example it will just be laggy and horrid to drive..
As for injectors they would be ok on the 3071 turbo at a max of 2 bar boost but id go for the 83lbers myself..
cheers danny
The bottom end will rev very nice with them bits and this also reducs bore and piston wear so goo choice!!
I would go with a fruity inlet cam or atleast a bd16 as mentioned and double valve springs so to let it rev nice..
Also dont use a cometic h/g as a wrc one is only Ł30 more and far better..
As mentioned the turbo is wrongly suited for your hp as its a 550 hp turbo and the .63 actually doesnt work as well as the .82 so lag is actually worse..thats true on the 3071 or the 76 but imo a 3071.82 will be best for you..
You need to suit the turbo to your hp as if you run a bigger turbo at less boost for example it will just be laggy and horrid to drive..
As for injectors they would be ok on the 3071 turbo at a max of 2 bar boost but id go for the 83lbers myself..
cheers danny
03-01-2011, 07:11 PM
#13
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Well theres loads to choose from mate, i offer one that iv been working with for a while but dont just sell it on its own as only sell it as part of a package..cam,timing,mapping etc
Theres loads to choose from and a bd16 inlet works well but you will need double valve springs with that..
cheers danny
Theres loads to choose from and a bd16 inlet works well but you will need double valve springs with that..
cheers danny
But a BD16 cams powerband is according to kentcams 3500-8500 rpm. Is that not a bit too much of a race cam for a street car where you still want to have some to low end toque left? And is it even possible to run closed loop with a cam like that? I don't know the rules in UK for MOT on cars, but in Denmark it must not have a CO content at more than 0,3% at 2500 rpm and must be able to run lambda 1,0 at the same time.I could of course switch the cam, chip and injectors every time, but i was hoping to avoid that. It's difficult enough to have to swith the exhaust every time or fit a catalytic converter... (it's every 2 years in Denmark regardless of ownership that cars need MOT)
04-01-2011, 09:14 AM
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Danny: Ok, so kent cams specifications is probably ment at if you go bd16/bd16 and not bd16/std.
6700 rpm peak power sounds good, my old setup was 6100 peak with the bd10 cam.
I will get back to you about the map.
Cheers
6700 rpm peak power sounds good, my old setup was 6100 peak with the bd10 cam.
I will get back to you about the map.
Cheers
Last edited by Rockhound; 04-01-2011 at 09:15 AM. Reason: Forgot a word
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