Starting issues - 03/03
06-02-2010, 09:37 PM
#1
Starting issues - 03/03
After changing a few things over the winter it's come to that time to start and.... it won't fire correctly and sounds like it's firing on 3
What i have is the car won't start on the key like it used to, you pump the peddle and it starts but when you let of the pedal it dies.
I tried the bulb in the plugs to see if it lights when the power is turned on.
When plugged into the air injector plug it lights but not in iscv, crank sensor, distributor, injectors so thats most of the 2 pin plugs that side of the loom (ryan loom) so this gets me thinking is it electrical or fuel but confused as its actually starting
What i have is the car won't start on the key like it used to, you pump the peddle and it starts but when you let of the pedal it dies.
I tried the bulb in the plugs to see if it lights when the power is turned on.
When plugged into the air injector plug it lights but not in iscv, crank sensor, distributor, injectors so thats most of the 2 pin plugs that side of the loom (ryan loom) so this gets me thinking is it electrical or fuel but confused as its actually starting
Last edited by BRAMMER; 03-03-2010 at 08:02 PM.
06-02-2010, 09:59 PM
#2
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Check all electrical connections. Make sure your multiplugs are all on the correct way etc.
Check all air lines to make sure none are old and perished with tiny holes you may not be able to see, and that they are all secure.
Perhaps the base idle is set too low as a simple check. Undo locknut and wind idle screw out to turn it up. I took my idle screw right out first and cleaned it as the end gets clogged with juicy bits of crap.
If you take the ISCV out and get someone to turn on the ignition, but NOT start it, usually the ISCV plunger will deflect momentarily so that's a simple check for that. Good time to clean and oil it too if you haven't for a while.
Check distributor phase sensor gap .2mm to .3mm between sensor and the lobes of the shaft, and make sure it has good insulation on its leads.
Check crank position sensor gap .6mm I think?
Throttle position sensor could be something to check as well. Apparently it's usually about right when the mounting grooves are centred on the screws, so check if it's visually way out in that respect.
If it starts, it must have fuel. You must be able to hear if the fuel pump is priming when you turn on the ignition?
That's my limited suggestions.
Tell us what things you changed as well as that could help isolate the problem.
Good luck
Check all air lines to make sure none are old and perished with tiny holes you may not be able to see, and that they are all secure.
Perhaps the base idle is set too low as a simple check. Undo locknut and wind idle screw out to turn it up. I took my idle screw right out first and cleaned it as the end gets clogged with juicy bits of crap.
If you take the ISCV out and get someone to turn on the ignition, but NOT start it, usually the ISCV plunger will deflect momentarily so that's a simple check for that. Good time to clean and oil it too if you haven't for a while.
Check distributor phase sensor gap .2mm to .3mm between sensor and the lobes of the shaft, and make sure it has good insulation on its leads.
Check crank position sensor gap .6mm I think?
Throttle position sensor could be something to check as well. Apparently it's usually about right when the mounting grooves are centred on the screws, so check if it's visually way out in that respect.
If it starts, it must have fuel. You must be able to hear if the fuel pump is priming when you turn on the ignition?
That's my limited suggestions.
Tell us what things you changed as well as that could help isolate the problem.
Good luck
06-02-2010, 10:09 PM
#3
Right i should have stated that all sensor are set right and non have been adjusted as the car was fine before i took the inlet off, everything is absolutely spotless as it's just been painted and put back together
It's the light in the plugs thats confusing me as they should light and they don't.
The pump is priming
It's the light in the plugs thats confusing me as they should light and they don't.
The pump is priming
06-02-2010, 10:22 PM
#4
right have you put a new set of plugs in and you might have to alter the tick over as you now have more air in the plenum all so pull all the plugs out replug them into the HT leads and put them on top of you rocker cover and turn the key and look at all the plugs to see it there all sparking
06-02-2010, 10:26 PM
#6
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Easiest way to check spark is take a plug out and turn over with the plug attached to the lead and the plug thread earthed against the engine - I earthed mine on the turbo damper (I have the same as yours) - you can visually see the spark as you turn it over.
By the way, your engine is a work of art.
Must be so frustrating to have it looking so good and face the prospect of taking it apart again.
If you took the inlet off, there is a possibility of an air leak, but there is also the possibility that you used to have an air leak, and since you did the work, it's sealed up better, so the engine isn't getting enough air anymore.
This theory adds up too in that the engine starts when you open the throttle which lets more air in.
I recently finished a rebuild on my engine. Yesterday, I was trying to sort out erratic idling. When the engine was up to temperature, I removed my ISCV multiplug, the engine would die. I realised for this to happen, the engine wasn't getting enough air with the ISCV closed for the engine to run.
I wound out my idle screw visciously (a few turns at a time) and kept restarting the engine and then pulling the ISCV plug off until it ran with the ISCV disconnected, then set the base idle. This needs to be done with the engine at temperature obvously.
I really don't know enough to be advising you, but you could try it. Perhaps idle CO is an issue?
By the way, your engine is a work of art.
Must be so frustrating to have it looking so good and face the prospect of taking it apart again.
If you took the inlet off, there is a possibility of an air leak, but there is also the possibility that you used to have an air leak, and since you did the work, it's sealed up better, so the engine isn't getting enough air anymore.
This theory adds up too in that the engine starts when you open the throttle which lets more air in.
I recently finished a rebuild on my engine. Yesterday, I was trying to sort out erratic idling. When the engine was up to temperature, I removed my ISCV multiplug, the engine would die. I realised for this to happen, the engine wasn't getting enough air with the ISCV closed for the engine to run.
I wound out my idle screw visciously (a few turns at a time) and kept restarting the engine and then pulling the ISCV plug off until it ran with the ISCV disconnected, then set the base idle. This needs to be done with the engine at temperature obvously.
I really don't know enough to be advising you, but you could try it. Perhaps idle CO is an issue?
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06-02-2010, 10:54 PM
#8
Right just been down the idle screw all the way out and it does attempt to start better.
The firing order is easy on wasted spark it's all labelled on the coil pack and correct
I can't take the plugs out as i haven't got a socket here.
I'm still confused as to why the bulb won't light when the power is on at the injectors but it will at the air to air plug
I know all the usual checks with gaps etc but nothing has been touched only the inlet off and everything is cranked down well with cometic gaskets.
The only difference is the spacer plate on the now 4x4 inlet.
But why would the car only fire on 3?
Strange
The firing order is easy on wasted spark it's all labelled on the coil pack and correct
I can't take the plugs out as i haven't got a socket here.
I'm still confused as to why the bulb won't light when the power is on at the injectors but it will at the air to air plug
I know all the usual checks with gaps etc but nothing has been touched only the inlet off and everything is cranked down well with cometic gaskets.
The only difference is the spacer plate on the now 4x4 inlet.
But why would the car only fire on 3?
Strange
06-02-2010, 10:56 PM
#9
The last time i had starting issues it was the baby board but then i wasn't getting power at the injectors hence no firing at all but after fitting a new board the injector plugs would light up so why is their no light to any of the 2 pin plugs on that side?
07-02-2010, 12:29 AM
#10
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Ok, you have changed to a 4x4 inlet - have you changed the throttle position sensor to a 2WD one?
The 2WD is a PF01 and the 4WD is a PF09
The 2WD is open circuit when throttle fully closed, and then when throttle is moved switch closes and goes from about 5v to near zero volts at throttle wide open.
The 4WD is always closed and goes from near zero volts at throttle closed to nearly 5 volts at throttle wide open.
I heard that you can use a 4WD one on a 2WD but you have to change the polarity of the multiplug. Please check this before doing it.
Your idle screw shouldn't need to be ALL the way out. It's quite a long screw. Mine probably has about 10mm of threaded section out of the throttle body, some of which is covered by the locknut, but obviously yours is a different engine and they will be different.
I'd check the TPS to see what one you have.
The 2WD is a PF01 and the 4WD is a PF09
The 2WD is open circuit when throttle fully closed, and then when throttle is moved switch closes and goes from about 5v to near zero volts at throttle wide open.
The 4WD is always closed and goes from near zero volts at throttle closed to nearly 5 volts at throttle wide open.
I heard that you can use a 4WD one on a 2WD but you have to change the polarity of the multiplug. Please check this before doing it.
Your idle screw shouldn't need to be ALL the way out. It's quite a long screw. Mine probably has about 10mm of threaded section out of the throttle body, some of which is covered by the locknut, but obviously yours is a different engine and they will be different.
I'd check the TPS to see what one you have.
07-02-2010, 12:35 AM
#11
Sorry mate i'll give the you quick spec of the car, L8, T38, Siemens injectors, wasted spark, msd chip, 4x4 inlet the car already has the 4x4 throttle as it was running with it before and was set with a multi metre so is smack on the setting.
It's a wierd one really as the car fires but sounds like on 3, correct firing order and plugs were new before the winter with the top really tight, 909 leads it's something simple i know but i'm racking my head thinking.
It's a wierd one really as the car fires but sounds like on 3, correct firing order and plugs were new before the winter with the top really tight, 909 leads it's something simple i know but i'm racking my head thinking.
07-02-2010, 12:40 AM
#12
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Ha! I know the feeling mate. It'll be some stupid little thing.
It must be late there. Go to bed and you'll wake up in the morning with the answer ha ha
It must be late there. Go to bed and you'll wake up in the morning with the answer ha ha
07-02-2010, 10:43 AM
#14
Get the plugs out . Or get some one to turn the key and get it firing and pull the HT leads off one at a time and put them back on and listen to the motor and if its a plug that is down you will here no chang when you pull one of them off
07-02-2010, 01:20 PM
#19
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Chris id check the plugs . Everytime i mess with mine it always fires on 3 cylinders when i go to start it , clean cylinder 3 plug and it works fine after that . Strange its always the same one but im not bothered as it runs fine after it been cleaned .
07-02-2010, 06:33 PM
#24
all so if you have been turning it over a lot you will of fluded the plugs and you will need a new set in there or get them out and put a blow lamp them to durn the fuel out of they they will look ok but trust us all they will have it deep in side and that will make them play up
09-02-2010, 04:32 AM
#25
Right here goes:
checked and all 4 plugs are sparking when taken out of the engine
all 4 leads are in the correct position on both engine and coil pack
all injectors are fitted right in the inlet and rail
I have fuel in the inlet pipe going to the rail
I still DON'T have a light at the injector plugs which is making me think that i have issues with a signal to the injectors, I'll have to speak to MSD about this as i could well have an issue with the new chip or my board again.
checked and all 4 plugs are sparking when taken out of the engine
all 4 leads are in the correct position on both engine and coil pack
all injectors are fitted right in the inlet and rail
I have fuel in the inlet pipe going to the rail
I still DON'T have a light at the injector plugs which is making me think that i have issues with a signal to the injectors, I'll have to speak to MSD about this as i could well have an issue with the new chip or my board again.
09-02-2010, 11:26 PM
#27
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Have you got a 12v feed to one side of the injectors , there negative switched by the ECU if iirc .
That way you should be able to tell if its the feed side or switch side thats the problem .
Could still call over if your stuck and try my L8 Ecu .
That way you should be able to tell if its the feed side or switch side thats the problem .
Could still call over if your stuck and try my L8 Ecu .
Last edited by cosy trav; 09-02-2010 at 11:27 PM.
10-02-2010, 03:53 PM
#29
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Never noticed you had wasted spark , im on a dizzy still so trying my ECU wont work after all .. Hope you get it sorted soon . Nowt worse than a problem you cant find .
19-02-2010, 02:19 PM
#30
Question that was put to me - doe the coil pack need to be earthed out? as mine is bolted to the strut which has since been powdercoated.
I thought this the other week but then thought well most fit theirs behind the headlights and bolt them down so the actual plastic part of the coil is touching the metal.
If anyone can elaborate
I thought this the other week but then thought well most fit theirs behind the headlights and bolt them down so the actual plastic part of the coil is touching the metal.
If anyone can elaborate
03-03-2010, 08:02 PM
#31
Right back again with the same issue.
The ECU has been tested and is working fine.
I have checked all the timing marks again to make sure.
All four plugs spark
Fuel feed through the rail
Pump is priming fine
Right and here are the symptoms:-
It seems to fire when i have an earth wire from the coil to battery, the car fires when you put pressure on the pedal and fires (sounds like on 3 cylinders).
The smell of fuel is very strong and is throwing black smoke out of the tail pipe, it's puffing smoke rings out of the exhaust.
When removing the brand new plugs No 1 & 4 are black and No 2 & 3 are clear but wet.
I know it's difficult to diagnose issues without seeing a car but i'm out of ideas without replacing parts at cost.
Can anyone allaberate on the 2 black and 2 clear wet plugs
The ECU has been tested and is working fine.
I have checked all the timing marks again to make sure.
All four plugs spark
Fuel feed through the rail
Pump is priming fine
Right and here are the symptoms:-
It seems to fire when i have an earth wire from the coil to battery, the car fires when you put pressure on the pedal and fires (sounds like on 3 cylinders).
The smell of fuel is very strong and is throwing black smoke out of the tail pipe, it's puffing smoke rings out of the exhaust.
When removing the brand new plugs No 1 & 4 are black and No 2 & 3 are clear but wet.
I know it's difficult to diagnose issues without seeing a car but i'm out of ideas without replacing parts at cost.
Can anyone allaberate on the 2 black and 2 clear wet plugs
Last edited by BRAMMER; 03-03-2010 at 08:04 PM.
03-03-2010, 08:37 PM
#36
Its only one complete pack, unsure as i get a spark when testing on the plug so it's indicating a supply. I'm not clued up on the functions of a Standard ford coil pack but could say one side go down as the findings above are separated into 2 sides of the pack 1&4 and 2&3 - i may try and source a spare pack and test.
03-03-2010, 08:47 PM
#38
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ignition amp ? if one goes down only 2 cylinders will fire, check middle pin of coil pack for live.then check for swithced earths on outer pins. If all 3 ok coil packs fucked
03-03-2010, 09:17 PM
#40
id say its the blue water temp sender on the back of the head..
i assume youve had the loom unplugged???
if its not the sensor it will be the plug on the loom..
un plug it and check the pins inside..
check plug clean plugs again and try,if that dosnt work change the sensor
cheers danny
i assume youve had the loom unplugged???
if its not the sensor it will be the plug on the loom..
un plug it and check the pins inside..
check plug clean plugs again and try,if that dosnt work change the sensor
cheers danny