RST fuse - fuel enrichment/cold start
14-01-2006, 03:51 PM
#1
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RST fuse - fuel enrichment/cold start
Following on from
https://passionford.com/forum/viewto...uel+enrichment
Ive noticed my S1 doesnt have the "heated seat" fuse which im told is for fuel enrichment on boost and cold start enrichment (which would explain problems ive been having)
Can anyone tell me if the S1 is meant to have this fuse, and if so where could i get one (is it a ford part only?)
Here's a pic of my fusebox where the fuse should be!
pleeeeez help
https://passionford.com/forum/viewto...uel+enrichment
Ive noticed my S1 doesnt have the "heated seat" fuse which im told is for fuel enrichment on boost and cold start enrichment (which would explain problems ive been having)
Can anyone tell me if the S1 is meant to have this fuse, and if so where could i get one (is it a ford part only?)
Here's a pic of my fusebox where the fuse should be!
pleeeeez help
14-01-2006, 04:21 PM
#4
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will be going home tomorrow afternoon, so unless anyone else helps b4 i will send you details, i have been having a cold start prob that i can't find and had not thought of looking there
14-01-2006, 04:54 PM
#5
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Different fusebox on an S1 to an S2 Dave. That socket you have circled is a relay socket, not a fuse socket....
Make sure you have an S1 fuse box lid and not one off an S2.
Make sure you have an S1 fuse box lid and not one off an S2.
14-01-2006, 05:03 PM
#6
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DazC, aaah. . the lid i have shows the heated seat to be where the relay would be their? 
Any pics of your fusebox/lid? (assuming yours is correct also)
Any pics of your fusebox/lid? (assuming yours is correct also)
14-01-2006, 06:25 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by DazC
Different fusebox on an S1 to an S2 Dave. That socket you have circled is a relay socket, not a fuse socket....
Make sure you have an S1 fuse box lid and not one off an S2.
Make sure you have an S1 fuse box lid and not one off an S2.
Whats the enrichment problem u have? it shouldnt be anything to do with the fuse box?
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14-01-2006, 06:38 PM
#8
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Just so you can see, heres my fusebox, but bear in mind this is a MK3 XR3i loom (that my cabriolet had in it from the factory), that i myself have re-wired for a Series 2 engine and management (hence the KE brown module), but as you can see the heated the slot you mention is empty.
Cold start enrichment and boost enrichment is controlled solely by the Hydro Electric Pressure Actuator, which in turn is controlled by the KE Jetronic ECU
Cold start enrichment and boost enrichment is controlled solely by the Hydro Electric Pressure Actuator, which in turn is controlled by the KE Jetronic ECU
14-01-2006, 06:38 PM
#9
It Wasnt Me!
Thread Starter
Its a cold start problem.
read half way down the page. . .
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=168085
I thought maybe my fuse was missing for the heated seats (according to stu it's for fuel enrichment for cold start and on boost driving) so i checked and it seemed it was missing, so i put that down to my cold star problems as i cant think of anything else!
read half way down the page. . .
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=168085
I thought maybe my fuse was missing for the heated seats (according to stu it's for fuel enrichment for cold start and on boost driving) so i checked and it seemed it was missing, so i put that down to my cold star problems as i cant think of anything else!
14-01-2006, 06:46 PM
#10
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Hmmmmm, well this Stu bloke obviously knows what hes on about, but if you look at a Ford wiring diagram for an RS Turbo, it would seem this is wrong.
The RS loom, for all the running gear, can be removed in one piece, (say you wanted to convert another car), and the only physical connections that run into the fuse box IIRC are 6 wires, only 1 of which actually physically connects to the fuse box (and thats for a Series 2 only as they have the KE Over Voltage protection module)
I cant really comment on what Stu has said, but from having wired up my own car i can tell you enrichment has nothing to do with this socket. To back up my point, look at the contacts in that space, theres 5 slots, and i bet you only 2 of which have pins in them (common + and - Busbars which run to all the relay sockets), now by all means if your feeling brave try bridging them together, but i think you know what happens when you put a piece of wire between a + and - terminal.
The RS loom, for all the running gear, can be removed in one piece, (say you wanted to convert another car), and the only physical connections that run into the fuse box IIRC are 6 wires, only 1 of which actually physically connects to the fuse box (and thats for a Series 2 only as they have the KE Over Voltage protection module)
I cant really comment on what Stu has said, but from having wired up my own car i can tell you enrichment has nothing to do with this socket. To back up my point, look at the contacts in that space, theres 5 slots, and i bet you only 2 of which have pins in them (common + and - Busbars which run to all the relay sockets), now by all means if your feeling brave try bridging them together, but i think you know what happens when you put a piece of wire between a + and - terminal.
14-01-2006, 08:07 PM
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Hmmmm, thats probably the best thing u could ever do! Mine cabby as of NOW starts and runs perfectly (taken a while to get it there) but im still going to go EFI so theres no wories over fuelling.
Have you got a vacuum gauge by the way?
Have you got a vacuum gauge by the way?
14-01-2006, 09:38 PM
#17
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In a word no, thats my factory MK3 loom, with series 2 engine management wiring patched in (i tried to make it look as original as possible). Series 1's dont have the protection module, i had to wire that in to a free relay slot (a slag of a job)
Have you taken your car to a tuner?
Have you taken your car to a tuner?
14-01-2006, 11:14 PM
#18
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Ok, I understand now. 
Yep it was set up by a well known tuner in Glasgow (AVA) I assume it's fine on boost, but its not been on the road much or driven hard since I have owned it so I am stabbing at the dark to see if this could be my problem
Yep it was set up by a well known tuner in Glasgow (AVA) I assume it's fine on boost, but its not been on the road much or driven hard since I have owned it so I am stabbing at the dark to see if this could be my problem
14-01-2006, 11:46 PM
#20
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Sorry, sorry i keep forgetting this is a cold start problem isnt it, ive got a boosting problem in my head.
As for your vacuum gauge, -5psi seems low.
When you crank the car u should see the flap moving up and down ever so slightly.
Does it run ok once you eventually get the thing going? (if not what is the vacuum gauge reading and is it stable?)
Does it re-start ok when hot?
Have u checked its maintaining a fuel pressure? (if not do you know how to)
Have you got a dump valve?
Sorry to ask so many questions, hopefully i can help you, but im sure the wiring isnt your problem
As for your vacuum gauge, -5psi seems low.
When you crank the car u should see the flap moving up and down ever so slightly.
Does it run ok once you eventually get the thing going? (if not what is the vacuum gauge reading and is it stable?)
Does it re-start ok when hot?
Have u checked its maintaining a fuel pressure? (if not do you know how to)
Have you got a dump valve?
Sorry to ask so many questions, hopefully i can help you, but im sure the wiring isnt your problem
15-01-2006, 12:06 AM
#21
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Thread Starter
It does have a boosting problem i haventmentioned - it jumped from 7psi - 12si no bleed valve, acuator is secure? Amal valve piped up std.
I'll check the vacuum to makesure! it is a collins guage remember
The flap as far as im aware does bob up and down when cranking, unsure by how much as im usually starting it while someone holds the flap
No it idles rough, and if you touch the throttle the revs drop and it dies, you cant rev it. . unless you do it VERY VERY slowly after bout 10 secs it can be reved, but revs still fall if you hold the throttle, once warmed up you wouldnt know their was a problem.
Starts fine when hot! runs fine also.
Dont know about fuel pressure, To check do i undo a bolt on the fuel filter?
No dump valve.
Thanks for the help
no bleed valve, acuator is secure? Amal valve piped up std.I'll check the vacuum to makesure! it is a collins guage remember
The flap as far as im aware does bob up and down when cranking, unsure by how much as im usually starting it while someone holds the flap
No it idles rough, and if you touch the throttle the revs drop and it dies, you cant rev it. . unless you do it VERY VERY slowly after bout 10 secs it can be reved, but revs still fall if you hold the throttle, once warmed up you wouldnt know their was a problem.
Starts fine when hot! runs fine also.
Dont know about fuel pressure, To check do i undo a bolt on the fuel filter?
No dump valve.
Thanks for the help
15-01-2006, 12:19 AM
#22
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Hmmmmm, boosting problem sounds odd, u sure the gauge is all ok (even though its a good make) they dont last forever, i know when u start doing wierd and wonderful things with the pipes they can have funny boost curves but it should be ok as is. Have you tried taking the amal valve out and running the actuator straight from the compressor housing?
Are collins in Bar rather than PSI or something then?
If the flap bobs up and down then i doubt there is an air leak, HOWEVER, my cabriolet was proving to be a bit of a never ending nightmare, ive had it on the drive for 7 months now, with all sorts of faults, like no fuel pressure, rough idling, and when left idling would slowly choke itself up until it stalled. Ive sorted it now.
One thing i did, which i would recommend to anyone running KE is to completely disconnect the engines breather system from the air box, should you get an air leak ANYWHERE on the engine, (ranging from a loose rocker cover, dipstick popping out etc) then the running suffers.
I think this is probably your route to go down to be fair, disconnect the breather and block the airbox entry (if only while fault finding), just to eliminate things.
No dump valve - thats 1 thing ruled out, notorious for problems.
Fuel pressure - you could do that, the way i check is to push the flap down after its been left over night, if its got pressure the flap will have a little resistance, and rise slowly and steadily, if not it will spring back up instantly.
Was it you i was posting about the fuel pump relay/wiring with aswell?
Its also worth checking you havent accidentally left any of the smaller connections off the battery terminals or anything, can cause ridiculous problems (guess how i know
)
Are collins in Bar rather than PSI or something then?
If the flap bobs up and down then i doubt there is an air leak, HOWEVER, my cabriolet was proving to be a bit of a never ending nightmare, ive had it on the drive for 7 months now, with all sorts of faults, like no fuel pressure, rough idling, and when left idling would slowly choke itself up until it stalled. Ive sorted it now.
One thing i did, which i would recommend to anyone running KE is to completely disconnect the engines breather system from the air box, should you get an air leak ANYWHERE on the engine, (ranging from a loose rocker cover, dipstick popping out etc) then the running suffers.
I think this is probably your route to go down to be fair, disconnect the breather and block the airbox entry (if only while fault finding), just to eliminate things.
No dump valve - thats 1 thing ruled out, notorious for problems.
Fuel pressure - you could do that, the way i check is to push the flap down after its been left over night, if its got pressure the flap will have a little resistance, and rise slowly and steadily, if not it will spring back up instantly.
Was it you i was posting about the fuel pump relay/wiring with aswell?
Its also worth checking you havent accidentally left any of the smaller connections off the battery terminals or anything, can cause ridiculous problems (guess how i know
)
15-01-2006, 12:35 AM
#23
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Nope, i dont think their is fuel pressure as their is no resistance in the flap when left overnight!
im at a loss
theirs good vacuum, oil cap gets sucked back on when its running if i try and lift it up. if i take it off it cuts out.
collins i wouldnt say is a good make, it reads in psi!
it read 7psi when it got set up, then one day decided to hit 12psi
if i run the actuator off the compressor housing, is it safe? just eliminates the amal valves use? (block the other pipe to the airbox?)
im at a loss
theirs good vacuum, oil cap gets sucked back on when its running if i try and lift it up. if i take it off it cuts out.
collins i wouldnt say is a good make, it reads in psi!
it read 7psi when it got set up, then one day decided to hit 12psi
if i run the actuator off the compressor housing, is it safe? just eliminates the amal valves use? (block the other pipe to the airbox?)
15-01-2006, 12:44 AM
#24
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Well, the first thing to check the next time you go out to it is the fuel pressure! Theyre pressure operated injectors, and if its low its going to start and run like a bag of nails. Before you even turn the key try the flap, it wont feel like a massive resistance, the tell tale sign is how it rises again, if it springs back and bounces then there is no fuel pressure. You could also crack a nut off after, see if the fuel sprays out.
My cabby started OK ish from cold, but stop in a petrol station once it was hot 3 minutes of cranking later...... 
If it is low when the pump primes you'll notice it change tone as the pressure builds up.
Your oil cap - normal, but is the exact reason mine is disconnected, too much to make air leaks on an engine.
Ah right, i know nothing about gauges to be honest! It should be safe to run it off the housing, but like evrything take it easy, dont just ramp it and take it for granted. I expect its your gauge to be honest. but i'd get the thing to start first before trying that, that wont affect how it starts.
My cabby started OK ish from cold, but stop in a petrol station once it was hot
3 minutes of cranking later...... If it is low when the pump primes you'll notice it change tone as the pressure builds up.
Your oil cap - normal, but is the exact reason mine is disconnected, too much to make air leaks on an engine.
Ah right, i know nothing about gauges to be honest! It should be safe to run it off the housing, but like evrything take it easy, dont just ramp it and take it for granted. I expect its your gauge to be honest. but i'd get the thing to start first before trying that, that wont affect how it starts.
15-01-2006, 01:41 AM
#25
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Got you on msn mate, just heading off to bed.
Im pretty sure the flap springs back up before i do anything.
If im starting it on my own, as my fuel pump relay is bridged i let the pump run with ignition on, press the flap down once, can feel the difference, not much but noticable, so i know what you mean by that! and it makes a high pitched whiney noise, as if fuel is being forced somewhere.
then it'll start, after about 5 seconds of cranking, and idle rough.
cheers for all the help, i'll check it out tommoz and see if i come up with anything new.
oh i cant undo my breather as it's fited with a different one cos my turbo was smoking (sticky oil seals app), some sort of non return valve and some other device fited by ava. . it worked and saved me buying a new turbo so i left it.
Im pretty sure the flap springs back up before i do anything.
If im starting it on my own, as my fuel pump relay is bridged i let the pump run with ignition on, press the flap down once, can feel the difference, not much but noticable, so i know what you mean by that! and it makes a high pitched whiney noise, as if fuel is being forced somewhere.
then it'll start, after about 5 seconds of cranking, and idle rough.
cheers for all the help, i'll check it out tommoz and see if i come up with anything new.
oh i cant undo my breather as it's fited with a different one cos my turbo was smoking (sticky oil seals app), some sort of non return valve and some other device fited by ava. . it worked and saved me buying a new turbo so i left it.
15-01-2006, 01:48 AM
#26
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I thought i'd add you easier than this.
Well push the flap down and then prime up and compare, if it feels no difference then it'll be ok, the pump will raise the pressure although it will be working over time, mine had been for some time by the sound of it, could hear the fuel pump down the road it was that noisy
Let me know how you get on! Get a fuel pump relay aswell!!
Speak to you tomorrow
Well push the flap down and then prime up and compare, if it feels no difference then it'll be ok, the pump will raise the pressure although it will be working over time, mine had been for some time by the sound of it, could hear the fuel pump down the road it was that noisy
Let me know how you get on! Get a fuel pump relay aswell!!
Speak to you tomorrow
15-01-2006, 11:14 AM
#27
Bit concerned about these comments to be honest...
To cap it all, you have this in your siggy:
Im not at all interested in getting into an argument here, and i think maybe you got confused over S1 and S2 which are VERY different. The fact is we have probably over a thousand S2 RST owners on here, so why not pop a post in General discussion askng them all to pop out next time their cars cold and try starting it with the heated seats fuse removed and report back, and then we will see catagorically if i am wrong. 
Remember though, i specialise in these antiques and do it for a living and would never put incorrect advice on an internet forum that gets 60million hits per month...
Originally Posted by safechav
this Stu bloke obviously knows what hes on about, but if you look at a Ford wiring diagram for an RS Turbo, it would seem this is wrong.
Originally Posted by safechav
I cant really comment on what Stu has said, but from having wired up my own car i can tell you enrichment has nothing to do with this.
Originally Posted by safechav
he may of got it confused with something else.
try asking me if you've got wiring and/or electrical problems. (particularly familiar with MK3/MK4 Escorts/Orions and Series 1 & 2 Turbos)
Remember though, i specialise in these antiques and do it for a living and would never put incorrect advice on an internet forum that gets 60million hits per month...
15-01-2006, 11:32 AM
#28
As for the original problem, first of all check the black box is recieving power. If it is, you need to be testing for current draw at the EMFPR with WOT. Its a very simple system and easy to fix, dig yourself a wiring diagram out from the net. Also, make sure you have an S1 black box and not an S2 as they are wired differently.. ive seen this problem numerous times.
15-01-2006, 01:50 PM
#29
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Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Bit concerned about these comments to be honest...
To cap it all, you have this in your siggy:
Im not at all interested in getting into an argument here, and i think maybe you got confused over S1 and S2 which are VERY different. The fact is we have probably over a thousand S2 RST owners on here, so why not pop a post in General discussion askng them all to pop out next time their cars cold and try starting it with the heated seats fuse removed and report back, and then we will see catagorically if i am wrong.
Remember though, i specialise in these antiques and do it for a living and would never put incorrect advice on an internet forum that gets 60million hits per month...
Originally Posted by safechav
this Stu bloke obviously knows what hes on about, but if you look at a Ford wiring diagram for an RS Turbo, it would seem this is wrong.
Originally Posted by safechav
I cant really comment on what Stu has said, but from having wired up my own car i can tell you enrichment has nothing to do with this.
Originally Posted by safechav
he may of got it confused with something else.
try asking me if you've got wiring and/or electrical problems. (particularly familiar with MK3/MK4 Escorts/Orions and Series 1 & 2 Turbos)
Remember though, i specialise in these antiques and do it for a living and would never put incorrect advice on an internet forum that gets 60million hits per month...
Can you just for general info then tell me why the 90 soec series 2 loom i cut up and used for mine had no wiring to this perticular socket then?
In fact, can you expand on it and tell me what wire comes from what pins of where and connects to this alleged socket. My ford loom i cut up, together with my Genuine Ford Wiring Diagram both marry up and didnt go anywhere near this socket and my car starts first click everytime.
Oh, and, i do believe the problem he has is on his S1, not a S2
15-01-2006, 03:17 PM
#32
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my s2 has the heated seat fuse but no relay for it but as stu said i removed it and tryed to start car with no joy i think stu is talking about the fuse not relay if that helps
15-01-2006, 04:06 PM
#33
I havent said you have said anything bad about me, but to quote you again:
Three statements there telling the forum that you think im wrong, thats nothing bad at all, its a "Disagreement" during a "Discussion" so your the one getting upset and pouncing on people with your CAPS.. IE: Me, lol.
As for the "Socket"... if you follow teh link teh lad gave you, and read BOTH discussions, you will see i am clearly talking about a FUSE, not a relay socket...
I am fully aware of that, and teh advice given was not to him if you AGAIN read teh topic you will see it was to the owner of an S2. 
However, you then proceed to tell everyone you think i may be mistaken as YOUR S2 loom doesnt have teh connection to teh fuse box that i describe.
I assure you that on a series 2 Rs Turbo the heated seats fuse is teh fuse to the positive supply of the black fuel box. I dont think it needs any more clarification than that, and as for you saying your series 2 didnt have it, maybe it was a badly wired up ringer or conversion? I see them very regularly as again, because its not labelled, people dont see it as being required and never quite figure out why they never run properly...
Originally Posted by safechav
if you look at a Ford wiring diagram for an RS Turbo, it would seem this is wrong.
Originally Posted by safechav
i can tell you enrichment has nothing to do with this.
Originally Posted by safechav
he may of got it confused with something else.
As for the "Socket"... if you follow teh link teh lad gave you, and read BOTH discussions, you will see i am clearly talking about a FUSE, not a relay socket...
Oh, and, i do believe the problem he has is on his S1, not a S2
However, you then proceed to tell everyone you think i may be mistaken as YOUR S2 loom doesnt have teh connection to teh fuse box that i describe.I assure you that on a series 2 Rs Turbo the heated seats fuse is teh fuse to the positive supply of the black fuel box. I dont think it needs any more clarification than that, and as for you saying your series 2 didnt have it, maybe it was a badly wired up ringer or conversion? I see them very regularly as again, because its not labelled, people dont see it as being required and never quite figure out why they never run properly...
15-01-2006, 04:30 PM
#34
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Right, i understand now, sorry for the confusion, the picture he posted up at the top has a relay socket circled, and from what i could put together in my head some fuse was meant to connect into this somehow, but now i understand your view on the matter anyway, which makes a lot more sense! 
Just out of interest what number is the fuse? Are you talking about the fuse for the KE Over Voltage Protection Module? (Fuse number 6)
The loom i used as a donor was a proper Series 2 loom, i cut it up and removed all the management wiring as in my opinion it was easier.
Sorry for all the misunderstanding, ive obviously misunderstood the context in which you said it, just like it would appear you misunderstood mine. I have every belief you know what your doing (being a trader obviously), those quotes were with reference to some fuse or link wire being connected in the above circled relay socket on his Series 1 Fuse box, hence why i said you MAY have got it wrong etc, and it would appear there is a bit confusion
Hope you havent taken offence
Just out of interest what number is the fuse? Are you talking about the fuse for the KE Over Voltage Protection Module? (Fuse number 6)
The loom i used as a donor was a proper Series 2 loom, i cut it up and removed all the management wiring as in my opinion it was easier.
Sorry for all the misunderstanding, ive obviously misunderstood the context in which you said it, just like it would appear you misunderstood mine. I have every belief you know what your doing (being a trader obviously), those quotes were with reference to some fuse or link wire being connected in the above circled relay socket on his Series 1 Fuse box, hence why i said you MAY have got it wrong etc, and it would appear there is a bit confusion
Hope you havent taken offence
15-01-2006, 04:43 PM
#35
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Stu @ M Developments, Thanks i will give that a check!
I think i may have caused some confusion as my fuse box lid (or how i read it) has the heated seat location on where i have circled in the picture, which is obviously wrong.
I think i may have caused some confusion as my fuse box lid (or how i read it) has the heated seat location on where i have circled in the picture, which is obviously wrong.
15-01-2006, 07:27 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by vroooom ptssssh
Originally Posted by DazC
Dave,
Does your fuel pump run on your car?
Does your fuel pump run on your car?
There is only 1 other place that has a fuse that you could check and that is actually inside the black relay next to the fuel pump relay and it's a glass fuse. Also if this relay has dry soldered joints, your KE box won't be getting power...