MS users - Accel enrichment...?
26-03-2012, 10:12 AM
#1
MS users - Accel enrichment...?
Ive had a google up on this and been on megamanual.co.uk, i havnt finished my VE table but when i drive the car, i touch the throttle (ie to pull away) and it jerks and tries to stall with the afr reading going very lean...
Could i activate this now just to make my driving experience better whilst im mapping the car?
If so what values have ppl used? Screenshots would be great...
Could i activate this now just to make my driving experience better whilst im mapping the car?
If so what values have ppl used? Screenshots would be great...
26-03-2012, 04:07 PM
#2
Yes you could activate it, I generally try to be very smooth with the throttle with it turned off for tuning tho, I find it confuses the situation slightly with it turned on.
But if you activate it (by lowering your tps threshold from 1000 to a more reasonable figure) just bare in mind that the first second or so after the accel enrich has been activated the afr's may be influenced, too much accel enrichment can cause a ve cell to look really rich when in fact it isn't....
Advanced accel enrichment is much better, but awful to set up on the road, really a dyno should be used for this IMO, normal accel enrichment isn't perfect, but is enough to get the car driving smoothly. I generally stick to TPS based accel enrichment if not using the advance settings, adjust your threshold so that any TPS noise doesn't falsely trigger it.
Drop me a txt or something mate if you need, I would send you the settings I use on my car however my computer has gone tits up and I've lost about a years worth of base maps and work
Rob,
But if you activate it (by lowering your tps threshold from 1000 to a more reasonable figure) just bare in mind that the first second or so after the accel enrich has been activated the afr's may be influenced, too much accel enrichment can cause a ve cell to look really rich when in fact it isn't....
Advanced accel enrichment is much better, but awful to set up on the road, really a dyno should be used for this IMO, normal accel enrichment isn't perfect, but is enough to get the car driving smoothly. I generally stick to TPS based accel enrichment if not using the advance settings, adjust your threshold so that any TPS noise doesn't falsely trigger it.
Drop me a txt or something mate if you need, I would send you the settings I use on my car however my computer has gone tits up and I've lost about a years worth of base maps and work
Rob,
Last edited by Rob_DOHC; 26-03-2012 at 04:09 PM.
26-03-2012, 04:50 PM
#4
If you haven't already have a look here:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/...ual.html#accel
Any by advanced accel enrichment i should have called it Enhanced as per the manual (EAE).
Happy fiddling
Rob,
http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms2extra/...ual.html#accel
Any by advanced accel enrichment i should have called it Enhanced as per the manual (EAE).
Happy fiddling
Rob,
26-03-2012, 07:59 PM
#6
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I was having trouble with acc enrich aswell, started try to enable it with a rough map, and that didn't work well. Now that I have a more fine tuned map, it works allot better, and its not as hit and miss as it was in the beginning..
26-03-2012, 09:52 PM
#7
Good to hear from you Casper! Glad your mapping seems to be going well. Your correct, accel enrichment and a bad VE table don't go well together... It gets even worse with EAE and a bad VE.
With the basic accel enrichment i find you will normally have to live with a small lean spike when you open the throttle and a rich spike when you close, as long as its smooth and you don't get a lean misfire like chip says you will be ok. EAE is much better but takes more time to get right.
If you are very lean you will get a lean misfire when you open the throttle which is incredibly annoying! and can make the car a bastard to drive, too rich is a safer bet, but this damages throttle response a bit...
Glad your mapping seems to be going well. Your correct, accel enrichment and a bad VE table don't go well together... It gets even worse with EAE and a bad VE. With the basic accel enrichment i find you will normally have to live with a small lean spike when you open the throttle and a rich spike when you close, as long as its smooth and you don't get a lean misfire like chip says you will be ok. EAE is much better but takes more time to get right.
If you are very lean you will get a lean misfire when you open the throttle which is incredibly annoying! and can make the car a bastard to drive, too rich is a safer bet, but this damages throttle response a bit...
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27-03-2012, 11:45 AM
#8
I think im getting a lean misfire, only on pull away tho. The afrs go drastically lean for a split second and then go back to being rich (anything above idle is pretty rich atm...) If i lean the whole ve table off so its alot better i'll then try activating the accel enrichment.
Any1 got some screenshots to give me a ballpark to work from?
Any1 got some screenshots to give me a ballpark to work from?
27-03-2012, 07:44 PM
#11
No Rog, a red RST! I will be mapping a blue orion (Jonnie's) when it comes back from paint and is built up again.... Probably fucking ages away knowing Jonnie! lol
Here's my settings...
My TPS lag factor is 50.
Also remember that the TPSDot threshold might be too sensitive depending on how well it's earthed, I ran a wire direct from the battery to the TPS to get it stable at 35.0, before this I couldnt get lower than 65.0 without it false triggering.
lolHere's my settings...
My TPS lag factor is 50.
Also remember that the TPSDot threshold might be too sensitive depending on how well it's earthed, I ran a wire direct from the battery to the TPS to get it stable at 35.0, before this I couldnt get lower than 65.0 without it false triggering.
27-03-2012, 07:51 PM
#12
Good stuff, i bet jonnies excited to get it back on the road...
Ill have a play aroung those figures for my AE wizard, thanks m8!
Shall i set it to 1,000 - 6,000rpm so its always active or isnt it needed at the top or bottom of the rev range?
Ill have a play aroung those figures for my AE wizard, thanks m8!
Shall i set it to 1,000 - 6,000rpm so its always active or isnt it needed at the top or bottom of the rev range?
Last edited by Rogeyboy; 27-03-2012 at 07:55 PM.
27-03-2012, 09:22 PM
#15
No mate thats the scalling, it reduces the AE from 100% @ 3000rpm to 0% @ 5000rpm
Like this....
So yes it is 100% active from idle, but what you might find is that your VE cells directly above idle need more fuel, these should be tuned first before playing with AE.
Like this....
So yes it is 100% active from idle, but what you might find is that your VE cells directly above idle need more fuel, these should be tuned first before playing with AE.
28-03-2012, 10:02 AM
#16
Good man Karlos!
Roger, you don't need as much (or some times any) accel enrichment at high rpm, accel enrichment helps with a clean revving engine, with no massive lean spikes causing lean misfires when you open the throttle. Its particularly bad at low rpm and can make for a really annoying driving car.
At higher rpm the rate of change is much lower, meaning less accel enrichment is needed. Going from half throttle to full throttle at 5000 rpm won't have a dramatic effect on the MAP value, doing the same at 2000 rpm causes a much larger change to happen (and very quickly) hence the need for more enrichment at lower RPM's.
Have a look here, stick with it as there is some really good info regarding acceleration enrichment tuning.
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16087
For me, I found the hardest part to get right was a transition from closed throttle to slightly open at sub 1500 rpm, round town you spend a lot of time in this region and a jerky car really gets on my tits.
Rob,
Roger, you don't need as much (or some times any) accel enrichment at high rpm, accel enrichment helps with a clean revving engine, with no massive lean spikes causing lean misfires when you open the throttle. Its particularly bad at low rpm and can make for a really annoying driving car.
At higher rpm the rate of change is much lower, meaning less accel enrichment is needed. Going from half throttle to full throttle at 5000 rpm won't have a dramatic effect on the MAP value, doing the same at 2000 rpm causes a much larger change to happen (and very quickly) hence the need for more enrichment at lower RPM's.
Have a look here, stick with it as there is some really good info regarding acceleration enrichment tuning.
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16087
For me, I found the hardest part to get right was a transition from closed throttle to slightly open at sub 1500 rpm, round town you spend a lot of time in this region and a jerky car really gets on my tits.
Rob,
28-03-2012, 10:09 AM
#17
Following on from what Karlos said,
If you free rev your engine and watch the blue dot, before it moves right it will move immediately move up, essentially the first few cells directly above your idle region won't be used for much, i doubt you will ever see the blue dot staying in one of these cells (steady state), that means you can use these cells to buffer your accel enrichment, making these cells nice and rich can often help a lot, especially when going from a closed throttle to a slightly open one like i mentioned earlier.
Rob,
Last edited by Rob_DOHC; 28-03-2012 at 10:12 AM.
28-03-2012, 10:10 AM
#18
Karlos - i understand now - thank you!
Rob, i am getting there slowly for some reason this seems to really confuse me - i cant seem to find anywhere that explains it in simple terms lol. I just wanna know what to expect once i start road mapping this weekend!
Cheers for the help both of you...
I'll keep you updated on my progress!
Rob, i am getting there slowly for some reason this seems to really confuse me - i cant seem to find anywhere that explains it in simple terms lol. I just wanna know what to expect once i start road mapping this weekend!
Cheers for the help both of you...
I'll keep you updated on my progress!
28-03-2012, 10:25 AM
#20
You'll be fine mate, just take it nice and slow. Its not going to be a silky smooth drive after day one
I tend to do things in this rough order
- Start up tuning
- Idle tuning
- Idle tuning when engine fully warm
- Let engine cool over night, then sort out warm up enrichment
On the road
- Get the low throttle areas roughly right, actually auto tune is fantastic for this.
- Get cruise right, this is much easier than the low speed areas as rate of change is much lower (the blue dot doesn't fly all over the place as fast)
- At high speed load the engine up, so 70 mph gradually build boost.
Once every thing is safe (always tune too rich rather than too lean) start taking data logs, gradually build upto full throttle pulls, pull over and inspect the data log, make sure your AFR's are where you expect them with no nasty lean areas or stupidly rich areas.
Once this is all looking nice, work on the drive ability of the car, start with the ve cells above idle as Karlos mentioned, then start playing with accel enrichment.
Before working on the accel enrichment too hard i would also take a look at the ignition table, however i much much prefer doing this on a dyno.
Once every thing is sweet as, turn on ego correction (as long as you have a good AFR table that matched your tuning target, and as long as tuner studio's afr display matches your AFR gauge).
All of that should get you close, its probably not how every one would do it, but thats just the rough order that i do it, im sure i've missed something somewhere! Auto tune is a fantastic tool if your road tuning, it will rough out a map that will have the car driving safely in an hour or so, I would suggest you adjust your VE table after this as it won't be perfect.
Happy mapping
I tend to do things in this rough order
- Start up tuning
- Idle tuning
- Idle tuning when engine fully warm
- Let engine cool over night, then sort out warm up enrichment
On the road
- Get the low throttle areas roughly right, actually auto tune is fantastic for this.
- Get cruise right, this is much easier than the low speed areas as rate of change is much lower (the blue dot doesn't fly all over the place as fast)
- At high speed load the engine up, so 70 mph gradually build boost.
Once every thing is safe (always tune too rich rather than too lean) start taking data logs, gradually build upto full throttle pulls, pull over and inspect the data log, make sure your AFR's are where you expect them with no nasty lean areas or stupidly rich areas.
Once this is all looking nice, work on the drive ability of the car, start with the ve cells above idle as Karlos mentioned, then start playing with accel enrichment.
Before working on the accel enrichment too hard i would also take a look at the ignition table, however i much much prefer doing this on a dyno.
Once every thing is sweet as, turn on ego correction (as long as you have a good AFR table that matched your tuning target, and as long as tuner studio's afr display matches your AFR gauge).
All of that should get you close, its probably not how every one would do it, but thats just the rough order that i do it, im sure i've missed something somewhere! Auto tune is a fantastic tool if your road tuning, it will rough out a map that will have the car driving safely in an hour or so, I would suggest you adjust your VE table after this as it won't be perfect.
Happy mapping
28-03-2012, 10:33 AM
#21
Another good tip that was given to me,
Applying the brakes to increase engine load will allow you to tune cells further up the load range fairly well.
Getting the region in the VE table correct where your coming on boost can take a little time to perfect, on boost and off boost is fine.
After you adjust your ignition advance its usually good to go back and check your VE table, afr's won't have changed dramatically, but they will have changed.
I personally would aim for AFR's as follows
Idle and every where around idle 14.7
Low RPM low load 14.7
Cruise 15.0 or even leaner, but start off aiming for 14.7-15.0
Low boost (sub 5psi) 13-14 is usually just fine
5-7 psi 12.5 ish
7-10 12.5 maybe a little richer
above 14psi i usually just go nice and rich, so 12.0 dropping to 11.8(ish) when approaching 18psi.
All the load cells around full thottle, off boost so 100KPA ish I just target 12.8.
These are all det dependent, so if you hear any det, richen up that area and pull 1/2 deg of timing.
I would be interested to see what other guys target AFR wise...
Applying the brakes to increase engine load will allow you to tune cells further up the load range fairly well.
Getting the region in the VE table correct where your coming on boost can take a little time to perfect, on boost and off boost is fine.
After you adjust your ignition advance its usually good to go back and check your VE table, afr's won't have changed dramatically, but they will have changed.
I personally would aim for AFR's as follows
Idle and every where around idle 14.7
Low RPM low load 14.7
Cruise 15.0 or even leaner, but start off aiming for 14.7-15.0
Low boost (sub 5psi) 13-14 is usually just fine
5-7 psi 12.5 ish
7-10 12.5 maybe a little richer
above 14psi i usually just go nice and rich, so 12.0 dropping to 11.8(ish) when approaching 18psi.
All the load cells around full thottle, off boost so 100KPA ish I just target 12.8.
These are all det dependent, so if you hear any det, richen up that area and pull 1/2 deg of timing.
I would be interested to see what other guys target AFR wise...
Last edited by Rob_DOHC; 28-03-2012 at 10:35 AM.
28-03-2012, 10:39 AM
#22
High gear and a big hill is what I tend to use rather than the brakes in isolation, relatively easy to get the car to sit at 1000rpm and 20% throttle like that.
Set of rollers makes it childs play of course, if they are like DD ones where you can force it to hold a load site!
With regards to idle AFR, I tend to aim for mid 14s but often find cars sit happier in the 12s or 13s or whatever, if thats the case then I just let them do so, its such a TINY amount of air, that wether its one 12th or one 14th of its mass that you add a fuel is pretty much irrelevant anyway as its such a ludicrously small amount in the first place.
I used to obsess about trying to get idle in the high 14s as thats what textbooks imply it should be, but these days I let the engine tell me what it wants not a text book, epecially when dealing with cars with no ICV that mean you have slightly larger than ideal amounts of airflow on a warm engine at idle in order to allow you to have enough airflow for when its cold, so you end up with retarded timing and a rich mixture to hold a steady idle as you have no way of limiting the airflow and if you run at leaner mixtures the revs want to increase unless you take even more timing out, and thats worse than just running slightly rich IMHO.
So is a matter of compromise between what theory suggests and what practice dictates.
Set of rollers makes it childs play of course, if they are like DD ones where you can force it to hold a load site!
With regards to idle AFR, I tend to aim for mid 14s but often find cars sit happier in the 12s or 13s or whatever, if thats the case then I just let them do so, its such a TINY amount of air, that wether its one 12th or one 14th of its mass that you add a fuel is pretty much irrelevant anyway as its such a ludicrously small amount in the first place.
I used to obsess about trying to get idle in the high 14s as thats what textbooks imply it should be, but these days I let the engine tell me what it wants not a text book, epecially when dealing with cars with no ICV that mean you have slightly larger than ideal amounts of airflow on a warm engine at idle in order to allow you to have enough airflow for when its cold, so you end up with retarded timing and a rich mixture to hold a steady idle as you have no way of limiting the airflow and if you run at leaner mixtures the revs want to increase unless you take even more timing out, and thats worse than just running slightly rich IMHO.
So is a matter of compromise between what theory suggests and what practice dictates.
Last edited by Chip; 28-03-2012 at 10:43 AM.
28-03-2012, 11:05 AM
#23
RPM holding is the way forwards, I hired a dyno local to me last year, ill be doing the same again this summer for my car.
The only reason i target 14.7 (or 14's in general) at idle and low load is for emissions and a happy MOT man theres no denying that a rich idle is a smooth one.
Rob
The only reason i target 14.7 (or 14's in general) at idle and low load is for emissions and a happy MOT man
theres no denying that a rich idle is a smooth one.Rob
28-03-2012, 11:44 AM
#24
I must say i did follow the textbook idle of 14.7 stoich (or there abouts) and the car flew thru the emissions on the mot... 0.34co and hardly any hc's.
My cold start is good to go, (maybe a touch rich... 13s from cold) but the car starts and warms up nicely, not hunting in the revs etc...
Idle is lovely 14.7/14.8
Free revving upto 3,000rpm again is pretty good
So its the low load driving im not looking 4ward to, the blue dots bloody flys!
Is it worth playing with my spark table on idle and free revving or just leave it as it is, as its working?
Honestly ive gotta say, if it werent for some of you guys on here i wouldn't have attempted this in the 1st place. Its good to have your experience/advice to call on! So thanks
My cold start is good to go, (maybe a touch rich... 13s from cold) but the car starts and warms up nicely, not hunting in the revs etc...
Idle is lovely 14.7/14.8
Free revving upto 3,000rpm again is pretty good
So its the low load driving im not looking 4ward to, the blue dots bloody flys!
Is it worth playing with my spark table on idle and free revving or just leave it as it is, as its working?
Honestly ive gotta say, if it werent for some of you guys on here i wouldn't have attempted this in the 1st place. Its good to have your experience/advice to call on! So thanks
28-03-2012, 11:45 AM
#25
RPM holding is the way forwards, I hired a dyno local to me last year, ill be doing the same again this summer for my car.
The only reason i target 14.7 (or 14's in general) at idle and low load is for emissions and a happy MOT man theres no denying that a rich idle is a smooth one.
Rob
The only reason i target 14.7 (or 14's in general) at idle and low load is for emissions and a happy MOT man
theres no denying that a rich idle is a smooth one.Rob
Idle isnt tested on then MOT is it? its normally just tested at 3000rpm isnt it?
Edit - actually forget that it was 3.5 CO at idle on older cars I remember now, but even at 12 or 13 it will still manage that anyway.
Last edited by Chip; 28-03-2012 at 11:47 AM.
28-03-2012, 12:07 PM
#26
Oh i presume it will, with my old ofac setup it was idling at 12afr and it just scraped thru last year, the trouble was when i came on boost it was hitting 15.4 at 1bar, so i stopped driving it after i got my innovate and ordered ofam!
Chip - what afrs do you aim for at diff boost levels etc?
Chip - what afrs do you aim for at diff boost levels etc?
28-03-2012, 12:15 PM
#27
Oh i presume it will, with my old ofac setup it was idling at 12afr and it just scraped thru last year, the trouble was when i came on boost it was hitting 15.4 at 1bar, so i stopped driving it after i got my innovate and ordered ofam!
Chip - what afrs do you aim for at diff boost levels etc?
Chip - what afrs do you aim for at diff boost levels etc?
There isnt one AFR that fits everything.
If in doubt though, RICH!
IME going from low 12s to high 10s takes only a few percent off the power output, and yet makes everything MUCH safer, so Im a big fan of the extra safety in exchange for a minimal drop in power.
Depends what you are doing though, if its remaps for a standard car, you need to do what your competitors do to match their figures, so I understand why must chips run leaner than I would with my ultra conservative approach.
Until the turbo is maxed, generally I would sooner make more power with a little more boost than with going leaner, and once it is maxed, I would sooner fit a turbo that isnt.
01-04-2012, 06:58 PM
#30
Been out for a few road runs this weekend... Good results!
Ive got the low load and cruise maps roughly where i want them, and some low boost full throttle runs done too.
I abit concerned with being abit lean tho, im 14.5 on boost at 6/7psi rising to 13.5 around 10psi... Maybe i'll richen it all up abit!
Bloody thing flies tho, its quicker now on 9-10psi than it was with nearly a bar of boost running the ofac management!
Ive got the low load and cruise maps roughly where i want them, and some low boost full throttle runs done too.
I abit concerned with being abit lean tho, im 14.5 on boost at 6/7psi rising to 13.5 around 10psi... Maybe i'll richen it all up abit!
Bloody thing flies tho, its quicker now on 9-10psi than it was with nearly a bar of boost running the ofac management!
02-04-2012, 11:09 AM
#31
Awesome results dude! Chuffed for you!
I would richen it up when on boost, at full throttle (even off boost) aim for high 12's, 13 is okay for low boost but anything approaching 10psi should be closer to 12 imo.
If you take a data log and use megalog viewer you will see what your peak duty cycle is on your injectors too, make sure every thing is safe.
I would richen it up when on boost, at full throttle (even off boost) aim for high 12's, 13 is okay for low boost but anything approaching 10psi should be closer to 12 imo.
If you take a data log and use megalog viewer you will see what your peak duty cycle is on your injectors too, make sure every thing is safe.
02-04-2012, 11:47 AM
#33
Ive got some of my own, but i fancy a trip down your way to show you the car etc so i could maybe try yours out if you don't mind, make sure they don't pick out anything that mine are missing!
Whats the advantage of being richer on boost, purely for safetys sake...?
Last night i got the fuel cut off perfected, altho i don't get no flames on overrun now! (Im guessing 0 spark advance and being mega rich 9-10afr on overrun combined with a double heat wrapped exhaust right upto the tip used to help also)
Still struggling with AE, i've even tried lowering the thresholds and upping the additional fuel and it still flick's lean before evening out...
Whats the advantage of being richer on boost, purely for safetys sake...?
Last night i got the fuel cut off perfected, altho i don't get no flames on overrun now! (Im guessing 0 spark advance and being mega rich 9-10afr on overrun combined with a double heat wrapped exhaust right upto the tip used to help also)
Still struggling with AE, i've even tried lowering the thresholds and upping the additional fuel and it still flick's lean before evening out...
02-04-2012, 12:19 PM
#36
PassionFord Post Whore!!
Mines awaiting rescue/mapping insured and will be taxed later today. Got a booking for mapping on the 14th.
Just ned to wire the boost controller in, cover the loom, clamp the battery down and that should be it.
I'm debating trying to drive it to fill with fuel, but might not bother, just fill it up with a couple of jerry cans, then once the mapper has it running well enough go straight to the petrol station just down the rd.
Just ned to wire the boost controller in, cover the loom, clamp the battery down and that should be it.
I'm debating trying to drive it to fill with fuel, but might not bother, just fill it up with a couple of jerry cans, then once the mapper has it running well enough go straight to the petrol station just down the rd.
05-04-2012, 10:19 AM
#37
Got this pretty much sorted now, altho my values in the "pw adder" table are alot higher than karlos'.
But the cars much better to drive, ive also richened it up on boost as i was 13-13.5afr, Im now a stable 12 dead on boost.
Rob - like you say i get a breif split second lean spike and then it reverts back to where it should be afr wise on a rapid opening of the throttle.
Also im loving the decel fuel cut, extra fuel saving and engine braking!
But the cars much better to drive, ive also richened it up on boost as i was 13-13.5afr, Im now a stable 12 dead on boost.
Rob - like you say i get a breif split second lean spike and then it reverts back to where it should be afr wise on a rapid opening of the throttle.
Also im loving the decel fuel cut, extra fuel saving and engine braking!
05-04-2012, 11:58 AM
#40
This is the good thing about mapping it yourself, you wont get all those loads sites done by a rolling road mapping your car for you!
AFR's are important, im not saying otherwise, but how it drives is more important, especially for transient stuff as lets face it you arent going to melt an engine during throtlte angle change, its not at it for long enough.
AFR's are important, im not saying otherwise, but how it drives is more important, especially for transient stuff as lets face it you arent going to melt an engine during throtlte angle change, its not at it for long enough.