Burton Oil pumps for RS Turbo
#1
It Wasnt Me!
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Burton Oil pumps for RS Turbo
Anybody ever had an issue with one? I've got a suspect pump fitted to my engine, oil light went out on first start then came on after 5 minutes running, put a gauge on and oil pressure was .8bar at idle with warm oil, pressure dropped to .6 so gave it a rev and it was back up to a bar at idle, when revving pressure went up fine as it should, at 4.5k rpm pressure was up at 5 bar, left it over night, started it up cold and oil pressure was way too high, I forget what it was...but it wasn't right. Can't get the releif valve out but it didn't feel right..having saw good oil pressure i'm going to have a punt at saying the engine is fine as in it's not a clearance issue, it's got to be something to do with the relief valve so tomorrow im ordering a new ford pump.
Anyone had a similar experience with their HP oil pumps?
Anyone had a similar experience with their HP oil pumps?
Last edited by vroooom ptssssh; 05-09-2011 at 10:42 PM.
#4
It Wasnt Me!
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Engine is a fresh build yes, had another look at it today...the relief valve isn't jammed but I cannot remove it from the pump which is strange, has great oil pressure 5+bar when cold at idle, once fully warmed up at idle its down to .6 bar
has to be something to do with the relief valve, as I can remove the valve from any other CVH pump with no hassle at all.
has to be something to do with the relief valve, as I can remove the valve from any other CVH pump with no hassle at all.
#5
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Bin it Dave!! I had a Burton pump and have heard stories about them so never fitted it purely on the stories I had heard. Then heard more when I was at SCS 18 months ago.
Get a decent pump on there. I've had issues with a Genuine Ford pump but the AutoPumps copy fitted now is fine. If it's an S2 crank the the OE pumps are still available if you want to go down that route.
Get a decent pump on there. I've had issues with a Genuine Ford pump but the AutoPumps copy fitted now is fine. If it's an S2 crank the the OE pumps are still available if you want to go down that route.
#6
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Engine is a fresh build yes, had another look at it today...the relief valve isn't jammed but I cannot remove it from the pump which is strange, has great oil pressure 5+bar when cold at idle, once fully warmed up at idle its down to .6 bar
has to be something to do with the relief valve, as I can remove the valve from any other CVH pump with no hassle at all.
has to be something to do with the relief valve, as I can remove the valve from any other CVH pump with no hassle at all.
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#8
Advanced PassionFord User
I've also bought the hp oil pump from burton power about 3 or 4 years ago but I haven't yet fitted it I thought I would keep it in case I need it in the furture but hearing stories in the past about them is making me think weather to keep it or sell it..
#9
It Wasnt Me!
Thread Starter
Bin it Dave!! I had a Burton pump and have heard stories about them so never fitted it purely on the stories I had heard. Then heard more when I was at SCS 18 months ago.
Get a decent pump on there. I've had issues with a Genuine Ford pump but the AutoPumps copy fitted now is fine. If it's an S2 crank the the OE pumps are still available if you want to go down that route.
Get a decent pump on there. I've had issues with a Genuine Ford pump but the AutoPumps copy fitted now is fine. If it's an S2 crank the the OE pumps are still available if you want to go down that route.
once I fit a new pump and IF everything is OK I'll be sending it back to burton and telling them I want a refund for that, a new sump gasket and the 2 oil pump gaskets Could really have done without this hassle ATM.
The pump I got quoted Ł65 from Dingbro was a "British Gaskets" made oil pump apparently.
It's a fiesta RS Turbo crank mate, as thats what the engine in the car is out of.
makaveli96, I wouldn't trust it as far as I could throw it mate
Last edited by vroooom ptssssh; 06-09-2011 at 10:49 PM.
#12
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Hi there, as every one has recommended go ford OE, expensive but seem less problematic. Mine is 20psi at idle on 10w/40 with hot oil. I forget how much my pump was, got a feeling it was a silly price like Ł200!!!! but after an expensive rebuild i doubt you would want to go any other way.
Shame as its not exactly a doddle to fit in the car. I would personally rather remove the engine and re do the sump gasket out of the car etc.
Good luck!
Rob,
Shame as its not exactly a doddle to fit in the car. I would personally rather remove the engine and re do the sump gasket out of the car etc.
Good luck!
Rob,
#15
It Wasnt Me!
Thread Starter
I think i'll prob need to go for an OE pump for peace of mind, hoping this is the problem though I can't see what else it could be as never had a problem with the guy that done the crank and supplied the shells, and what with the relief valve being a bit funny and being unable to remove it from the pump, which isn't right.
#17
BANNED
BANNED
I know that is what I did on my first rs turbo build :-(
You live and learn
#19
It Wasnt Me!
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Well going to remove the pump on sunday and inspect it, then likely order a new pump if the conclusion is that the pump is at fault, which im 95% sure it is! Unless anybody want's to buy a series 1 needing a new oil pump
#20
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Incidently my off the shelf Auto Pumps unit produces 1.2 bar of pressure when warm which is about 22 psi. My genuine (genuinely expensive!!) Ford pump wouldn't even lift the oil!
#22
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I havent read the whole thread, but in short spend the Ł170 ish and buy genuine ford pump. Then fit an uprated oil pressure spring for Ł10.
The burtons pumps will be a QH or such like pump with the same spring as above.
Any pump should be taken apart, cleaned reasembled with some mineral or running in oil soaking the drive before hand.
The burtons pumps will be a QH or such like pump with the same spring as above.
Any pump should be taken apart, cleaned reasembled with some mineral or running in oil soaking the drive before hand.
#23
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I burnt a new starter motor out trying to get my OE pump to lift oil!!
Jimbo Gibbs will remember the issues I had one day with my OE pump!! Cost me a day on the dyno, Ł150 for fucking about at Harvey's, Ł130 in diesel in my van, Ł120 for the oil pump (I get good Ford discount), Ł60 ish for another copy pump, Ł30 in gaskets, Ł90 for a new starter motor.
Jimbo Gibbs will remember the issues I had one day with my OE pump!! Cost me a day on the dyno, Ł150 for fucking about at Harvey's, Ł130 in diesel in my van, Ł120 for the oil pump (I get good Ford discount), Ł60 ish for another copy pump, Ł30 in gaskets, Ł90 for a new starter motor.
#24
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I dare say I got shafted with a dodgy pump but as I was struggling to get it to lift pressure I thought fuck it I'll slap a different pump on from my local engine component specialist (who I have never had issues with bad parts) as a tester. It lifted the oil straight away and produced good oil pressure so I left the thing on.
I'd say get an OE pump Dave as I may just have been brush handled with a shit pump, although I would be a bit unhappy at pissing Ł180 up the wall to still have oil pressure issues.
Make sure the pick up pipe flange is flat and also, daft point to make, make sure the gauze is clear and the gasket is on the right way (yes I have seen this a few times)!
I'd say get an OE pump Dave as I may just have been brush handled with a shit pump, although I would be a bit unhappy at pissing Ł180 up the wall to still have oil pressure issues.
Make sure the pick up pipe flange is flat and also, daft point to make, make sure the gauze is clear and the gasket is on the right way (yes I have seen this a few times)!
#25
It Wasnt Me!
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Yea Daz thats my prob I don't want to spend Ł180 to still find i have issues elsewhere, sump is coming off to remove and inspect the pump that is on before I decide on buying a new pump, to which i'll plastiguage the shells to makesure they are not the issue, re-check the pickup and gasket (always very careful when fitting these and make sure they are clean by steam cleaning them in reverse) always makesure crank and rod oil holes are clear...SO annoying even though i'm V.sure about the build i'm still doubting myself. it's got great pressure when cold (5+bar) Out of all the CVH's i've built mine had to be the one with the problem, Sods law!
Last edited by vroooom ptssssh; 09-09-2011 at 08:41 PM.
#27
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the one i got was lol then i see the light and built a zetec lol
#28
It Wasnt Me!
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Right....I finally got round to sorting this, plastiguaged all the shells to makesure it wasn't a mechanical issue, checked everything to makesure it wasn't an error on my part when assembling....
everything was within tollerance and assembled correctly.
So got on with getting a new pump last week (Ł75 "british gaskets" pump from Dingbro) and fitted it, fired it up...and.....no oil light, pressure was 1.1 bar when up to temp
So going to send the "high pressure" piece of shit Autopumps pump back to Burton, have a right mind to charge them for the gasket's I had to re-replace and the labour
I sat and thought about the "high pressure" pump...and we all know the only difference is the high pressure relief spring....well once the cars warmed up, the relief valve is unlikely to open so therefore the spring only gives higher pressure when cold, which is pointless as it's already high with a std spring.....pointless then
anyway
everything was within tollerance and assembled correctly.
So got on with getting a new pump last week (Ł75 "british gaskets" pump from Dingbro) and fitted it, fired it up...and.....no oil light, pressure was 1.1 bar when up to temp
So going to send the "high pressure" piece of shit Autopumps pump back to Burton, have a right mind to charge them for the gasket's I had to re-replace and the labour
I sat and thought about the "high pressure" pump...and we all know the only difference is the high pressure relief spring....well once the cars warmed up, the relief valve is unlikely to open so therefore the spring only gives higher pressure when cold, which is pointless as it's already high with a std spring.....pointless then
anyway
Last edited by vroooom ptssssh; 27-09-2011 at 08:44 PM.
#31
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You'd be surprised Dave. Autodata states something like 2.8bar of pressure at 2k rpm for a CVH engine when warm so higher RPM will produce quite a bit more.
I'd replace all your crank shells looking at those pictures too as they are showing signs of wear. Definitely had oil pressure issues looking at those shells. Replacement isn't necessary but advisable. The crank looks fine though.
I'd replace all your crank shells looking at those pictures too as they are showing signs of wear. Definitely had oil pressure issues looking at those shells. Replacement isn't necessary but advisable. The crank looks fine though.
#32
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Yea you may be right Daz!
The shells and crank are fresh, the marks I wouldn't say is "wear" as such as the car literally was started 3 or 4 times, never drove or revved hard and when oil light came on it was never left to run, but would still of had some oil pressure! I don't think you'll ever get a shell without those marks even after one start up from new and if you removed to inspect, certainly none i've ever saw. the plastiguage was done right on the mark as you can see and still well within tollerance. shells probably not even bedded in properly yet!
The shells and crank are fresh, the marks I wouldn't say is "wear" as such as the car literally was started 3 or 4 times, never drove or revved hard and when oil light came on it was never left to run, but would still of had some oil pressure! I don't think you'll ever get a shell without those marks even after one start up from new and if you removed to inspect, certainly none i've ever saw. the plastiguage was done right on the mark as you can see and still well within tollerance. shells probably not even bedded in properly yet!
#34
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Yea you may be right Daz!
The shells and crank are fresh, the marks I wouldn't say is "wear" as such as the car literally was started 3 or 4 times, never drove or revved hard and when oil light came on it was never left to run, but would still of had some oil pressure! I don't think you'll ever get a shell without those marks even after one start up from new and if you removed to inspect, certainly none i've ever saw. the plastiguage was done right on the mark as you can see and still well within tollerance. shells probably not even bedded in properly yet!
The shells and crank are fresh, the marks I wouldn't say is "wear" as such as the car literally was started 3 or 4 times, never drove or revved hard and when oil light came on it was never left to run, but would still of had some oil pressure! I don't think you'll ever get a shell without those marks even after one start up from new and if you removed to inspect, certainly none i've ever saw. the plastiguage was done right on the mark as you can see and still well within tollerance. shells probably not even bedded in properly yet!
Those marks are wear marks. A hydrostatic bearing only ever comes into contact with the 2 faces on start up and shut down. Once oil is present, the bearing enters a full-film state where by the crank runs in oil and not in contact with the bearing shell. Those marks you have are typical of an engine having done several thousand miles. It will be fine but they will be worn out sooner than the rest of the engine. Shells don't have to bed in by the way, just the rings.
#35
It Wasnt Me!
Thread Starter
Is it possible to have a perfect engine with zero wear marks on shells unless you get oil pressure up everytime before cranking? like a dry sump kit with an electric pump?
Dave,
Those marks are wear marks. A hydrostatic bearing only ever comes into contact with the 2 faces on start up and shut down. Once oil is present, the bearing enters a full-film state where by the crank runs in oil and not in contact with the bearing shell. Those marks you have are typical of an engine having done several thousand miles. It will be fine but they will be worn out sooner than the rest of the engine. Shells don't have to bed in by the way, just the rings.
Those marks are wear marks. A hydrostatic bearing only ever comes into contact with the 2 faces on start up and shut down. Once oil is present, the bearing enters a full-film state where by the crank runs in oil and not in contact with the bearing shell. Those marks you have are typical of an engine having done several thousand miles. It will be fine but they will be worn out sooner than the rest of the engine. Shells don't have to bed in by the way, just the rings.
You're right just rings need bedding in.
as I say, oil pressure is fine, plastiguage results are fine (even on the wear marks) so f**k it
#38
It Wasnt Me!
Thread Starter
Don't panic me i've had enough grief with this damn car
Assembled loads of CVH's and it HAD to be mine that had the dodgy oil pump....motherf*cker
Assembled loads of CVH's and it HAD to be mine that had the dodgy oil pump....motherf*cker
Last edited by vroooom ptssssh; 02-10-2011 at 11:31 AM.
#40
It Wasnt Me!
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Sod's law isn't it Daz, I've often wished I got rid of it before resto and saved myself 3 years of grief and a fair bit of cash....as now I just feel the cars a chore rather than something I can enjoy..ah well it's done now, hopefully nothing else will break as i've renewed most of it.