No lol,

High EGT's can be caused by too little ignition advance (too retarded) or or too much cam advance... i think i said that the first time round lol.

Rob,

 

Ahhhh i now see what you mean, too much little LOL no its just my spaktard english.

Rob,

 

Ahh thats cool, i've knocked a couple of degree's off your high load cells until its run in and i have my det cans. Its driving pretty nicely at the moment tbh (although im only pussying it about with a 4000rpm rev limit lol), at 7psi boost it feels much much faster than it did at 12psi on mfi.

My idle is pretty stable at the moment, but my injectors are shite and meant for a 16v car so its just spraying fuel on the port walls, plus i've just realised my fuel pressure is at 2bar so i'll bump that upto the 3bar Bosch pressure and start again... maybe at idle fuel isn't being atomised enough.

At cruise it runs pretty well at stoichiometric (havent tried to go any leaner) but i guess the gas speed is up and the turbulence helps keep the fuel off the port walls.....

PS, your base map was a god send! and will be well handy next month when my Deka's turn up

Rob,

 

What are people using to measure the egt do you put the sensor in the manifold or in the front pipe?

I might try advancing the ignition timing a few degrees and leaning out the fuel and see how it drives

 

I have seen people put the sensor before the turbo, in the exhaust housing and at the top of the down pipe. Im told that some people don't like putting the sensor before the turbo in case it breaks up and gives the turbo a bad day.

But as a temp measure, (temp measure lol... sorry) you can pick up hand held laser temperature measuring guns pretty cheaply, this would at least let you compare temps as you mess with timing.

Rob,

 

Yes your choice of words wasn't very good to say the least!! LOL!

 

2 Bar fuel pressure! That may have an effect on your atomization issues, the fuel will be practically dribbling out the injectors and onto the port walls! lol

 

lol, its upto 3 now, and is running much better. Still can't wait to give the deka's a go! and try out more the 7psi of boost!

Rob,

 

What injectors are you using now then mate?

 

honestly, i have nooo idea. I bought them a couple of years ago for another project i think they are 380cc, Bosch high impedance etcetc. They were new and i don't know what they came out of. They have a spray pattern that is clearly for a multi port engine.

Like the ones on the far right in this pic



So pretty unsuitable lol

Rob,

 

Im running some ebay found injectors with my zetec. It idals with a 12.5 afr any think leaner than that it hunts at times or hesitates when pulling away. Light throttle loads low 14's in most places up to 7 psi the afrs hang around the 13afr mark but any think over that they richen up to 11.8/12.0 then any think higher than 20psi 11.7 all tho my injectors are flat out now and im changing all my inlet/exhaust so new injectors will be coming next

 

Yeah not the best spray pattern, straight onto the port walls! lol

 

12.5 is very rich at idle, wonder why it doesnt like being any leaner?

 

I think its to do alot with the map sensor as iv borrowed a gen sensor and the problem goes lol ive mucked around with the timing that helps alot but i think my shit injectors arnt helping tho

 

Yeah sounds like a combination of a few things then, wouldnt of thought a Zetec would have any trouble idling at stoich if all was well.

 

I could get it alot betted but my injectors are flat out so as im changing for some 650 maby bigger ill have more of a play with it then

 

Im confident my injectors are the cause of my car not idling well above 13.5:1 (was around 12.8:1) At higher rpm the turbulence in the port probably helps a lot so the problem isn't as bad.

We shall see!

Rob,

 

Its been posted a million times and always ends in the same shitty argument.

i run p8 cossie management and more than happy with it, every sensor was brand new and so where all the picups only thing that wasn’t new was the ecu and i got that from jano after it had been tested so..... i have piece of mind that its not going to fail me.

everyone should agree that the first thing you need to do is find a tuner/mapper that you like and go with what ever management he prefers to map.

if you want to do it yourself then great get ms other wise leave it down to the professionals not a few guys on the internet who think they are tuners because they mapped there own cars.

Your always going to get a difference in opinion when it comes to this but as said above my advice is to fine someone you like and have them map your car.

www.oddkiddcreations.co.uk that’s janos site everyone on there are nice and very happy with the services he offers. Awesome guy whos NOT out to get your money, if you do want to learn janos the man to go to!


P.s not saying that any other system arent good as i have never used anything els

 

Conor, none of us claim to be tuners, we simply offered to help another member with what knowledge we do have to get him up and running and point him in the right direction to start learning himself as thats what he wants to do!

 

I wasnt really aiming that at you pal. The point that im trying to make is unless this guy really wants to do it himself then just go and get some a company to do it ....

alot of it will depend on how much you got to spend

 

I wonder if fast ford or PF could do a feature at brunters, ms vs webber? Be interesting to see.

 

Whats that gonna show us??? That boath the ecus have the abiliaty to run an engine?

 

"www.oddkiddcreations.co.uk that’s janos site everyone on there are nice and very happy with the services he offers. Awesome guy whos NOT out to get your money, if you do want to learn janos the man to go to!"

Every business man is out to get your money! This just silly. If he wasn't out to get your money he would be broke, or just stupid.

 

Which guy are you talking about conor? the OP or svony? Svony is state side and doesn't have the luxury of knowing a tuner familiar with his ecu, so several people have offered pretty sound advice which i hope will help him.

Like Karlos said, no one is playing tuner, but that doesn't mean the guys who have chipped in don't know a thing or two you don't, Daz is clearly a useful chap, karlos has helped me with good advice more than ANY tuner ever has, Chip knows his stuff etcetc the list goes on.

Not every ones happy with Jano (not slating him don't worry) more specifically who he chooses to map peoples cars, and frankly if he wants to pick up custom on here he should pay for a traders account. Simples.

Im glad your ecu runs your car well, P8 being the one to choose. I won't slate it because i've never used a P8,L8,L6 etc for a number of reasons that don't have anything to do with how they perform their jobs.

No body can slate MS until they have fitted, mapped and abused it. I have never heard of a user slate it after trying it, but i have heard of people changing from weber to MS.

Rob,

 

You would have to be mental to swap to ms from webber. The only people that would swap is the people that want to mess them selves and lack the ability to adjust the webber map

 

Ability/resources. You ever had any experience with MS Ruby123?

As far as i can tell, these threads always turn to shit, not because MS user bang on about how they are better, but because weber guys do. Every one of the MS users on here so far has said the same thing, weber is great but i use MS because of XYZ.

 

i like ms because i can change settings if i need to, if i get any problems i can plug my laptop in and check its all ok.

people with cossie gear can't

 

No I personaly wouldn't touch ms as I have no need or intension of messing about with the map eve if I did I wouldn't use ms I would use a better quality ecu. If you look back its not the webber boys turning this thread to shit its the ms boys saying ms is better despite top tuners stating other wise

 

Fair enough, and a good reason. I'm obviously just different from you.

Have you even seen a megasquirt built by a company rather than an individual? In front of me i have an OFAB, an L6 and my megasquirt..... i doubt you could even tell me which was which let alone which was the best quality and why.

Have a re read mate, start on page one.

But i will say it again, weber is great, im happy you like it, but its not for every one (me included). Maybe if i didn't know how to do things/couldn't learn or i had access to weber equipment i would have a different opinion.



Rob.

 

Okay fellas... back to the programme!

I started doing some logs yesterday and began making some minor changes to the fueling, but only to the off boost, lower scale of the map. The car idles much better but hunts with anything below 13.5 AFR. Under boost the AFR is as rich as 10.1 but I'll leave that part of the map for the rollers or when I have someone that can drive while I make small incremental changes. Now the one problem I seem to be having is, the car goes totally lean (22 or higher AFR) as it transitions from vacuum to boost, it seems to happen right at the zero mark on the factory gauge. The car begins to sputter and bog down, if I let off the throttle a bit and then get back on it everything is fine... this doesn't happen all the time and I can seem to pickup the fault form the log. Is it possible I have a bad TPS or MAP sensor?

 

My car was hunting at idle. I found it to be better with a little less advance at idle with more advance under idle. That way when the rpm starts to drop its buffered by a cell with more advance and a slightly rich cell. My idle advance is i think 11deg with 15deg below idle. Im not sure how this works with an idle valve as mine isn't installed yet.

You could have a faulty sensor, but this would definitely show up on the logs. Can you post a screen shot showing it happening? It may be related so accel enrichment (or lack of it).

Rob,

 

you need a log to show really, could be noise on a cable from tps possibly.
getting the transitional bits sorted is the hardest part, setting up acceleration enrichments etc. make a big difference.

 

i was going to mention about timing being to blame for hunting at idle, knock a bit out and it'll alter teh afr and should help idle.

 

snap

 

I don't have to read from page one I rember what was said. And also my computer just blew up so its harder on my phone lol. Ms has its place and some people like messing every other day with there map just not for me and for me and my needs not on the same level as webber

 

Ok here's the screen shot of the fueling...


And ignition...

 

Hi.

Your TPS is only there for transient adjustments. So when you move your throttle, the TPS tells the ECU to dump an additional X amount of fuel for X amount of time. If you accelerate from idle and hold your throttle steady and then it hits the lean point whilst you're throttle angle isn't changing then your transients are not the issue.

Is you fuel map even? No sudden dips along the atmospheric line? Try interpolating the lines across atmospheric so it makes a smooth transition from negative to positive pressure visually on the load sites.

The other thing to do is try turning off your decel fuel shut off by setting the RPM switch off point as high as possible. If this makes no difference, set it back to how it was.

Also check your ignition table is quite flat. If you've got sudden dips in it, that can cause the fuel to burn incorrectly very suddenly and give odd AFR readings.

I would look at replacing your MAP sensor too. Unless you can see the trace cell working correctly every time you rev the engine and it hesitates.

With the idle, try adding/subtracting ignition advance in 5 degree increments to see if it'll lean out any further. The other thing to consider there is cam timing affecting the way the car runs by being a few degrees out on 1 cam or both. I'm assuming it's on verniers?

 

Svony,you've only got 5 degrees of advance at idle!! I'm running 25 degrees on my CVH!

Try upping the idle sites to 15 degrees and see ifit idles any better when leaner.

 

All the load sites in blue are lower than the idle fuel values. I'd try highlighting them all and using the plus and minus keys to add some until the very bottom blue line is just above 111 ( your idle value).

Then I'd make the line above the very top blue line around the 120 mark. It looks like your fueling if you displayed it in graphical format would be high at idle, then dip down and then suddenly shoot upwards. You need to get rid of that dip in the fuel map. It should steadily increase in values as the engine speed increases (and so does the engines demand for fuel).

P.S. If you want, e-mail me your map and I'll have a look at it. I can't promise a lot but if I can see any obvious flaws I'll point them out.

PM me and I'll send you my e-mail addresses.

 

Thanks guys, I"ll give it all a try and report back...

DazC, fuel map is all over the place but I have focused on making things more even in the idle and cruise areas, as I said before none of these changes made a difference in the stumble issues.

No verneirs, standard small turbo Escort with T34 turbo, 650cc injectors and RS500 intercooler.

Wes

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