engine rebuild, spec help needed cam, head, management and turbo choice
29-12-2009, 05:52 PM
#1
engine rebuild, spec help needed cam, head, management and turbo choice
Hi all,
My Rs turbo is stripped waiting for better weather for a full under body resto, a project page will be started soon for any one who is interested...
The shell is really nice and the car has a gen 63k so i was going to rebuild the car back to total standard.
However i have been thinking about management
and would quite like to go EFI for reliability and economy more than anything. So have a choice... Cossy management or after market (probably OMEX 600). Any ideas?
Also as the engine will be largely standard 200 brake is my target, so easy enough. So far the bottom end will be blue printed and balanced using standard crank, rods (albeit shot peened with ARP's) and standard pistons.
I am unsure about whether to get the head ported etc. nothing too drastic. But with the aim of running lower boost for the target BHP. Would any one recommend a company or 'stage'.
Also the car currently has a piper T285 cam, i want a low lag engine and i don't really think this is the cam for me.... can some one suggest a good Newmans for my power? i would like to retain hydraulic tappets.
And lastly lol
With an unstressed 200brake being the aim, i want a really low lag, nice to drive in traffic etc car. So have been considering a T2 (frst manifold), T25 or T28 turbo. Could any of you make decent recommendations regarding turbo choice for low lag?
Thanks very much all! as soon as the build begins pictures will be up.
Rob,
My Rs turbo is stripped waiting for better weather for a full under body resto, a project page will be started soon for any one who is interested...
The shell is really nice and the car has a gen 63k so i was going to rebuild the car back to total standard.
However i have been thinking about management
and would quite like to go EFI for reliability and economy more than anything. So have a choice... Cossy management or after market (probably OMEX 600). Any ideas? Also as the engine will be largely standard 200 brake is my target, so easy enough. So far the bottom end will be blue printed and balanced using standard crank, rods (albeit shot peened with ARP's) and standard pistons.
I am unsure about whether to get the head ported etc. nothing too drastic. But with the aim of running lower boost for the target BHP. Would any one recommend a company or 'stage'.
Also the car currently has a piper T285 cam, i want a low lag engine and i don't really think this is the cam for me.... can some one suggest a good Newmans for my power? i would like to retain hydraulic tappets.
And lastly lol
With an unstressed 200brake being the aim, i want a really low lag, nice to drive in traffic etc car. So have been considering a T2 (frst manifold), T25 or T28 turbo. Could any of you make decent recommendations regarding turbo choice for low lag?
Thanks very much all! as soon as the build begins pictures will be up.
Rob,
Last edited by Rob_DOHC; 29-12-2009 at 06:54 PM.
29-12-2009, 09:28 PM
#2
standard erst t3 with a 360 degree thrust bearing in it to help with the load.
spooled up by 3000rpm easy, T2 would shat itself at 200bhp, T25 off a tt spec xr3/xr2 could be used, although manifolds are rare.
probably i'd suggest a cossie 2wd t3.
not too laggy at all and will pull 200bhp all day long, a 0.36 exhaust housing would be ok to keep lag down, but a 0.48 would give less resistance to the exhaust gases, although this would raise the lag a little.
if you have he money, then find a GT28 turbo.
spooled up by 3000rpm easy, T2 would shat itself at 200bhp, T25 off a tt spec xr3/xr2 could be used, although manifolds are rare.
probably i'd suggest a cossie 2wd t3.
not too laggy at all and will pull 200bhp all day long, a 0.36 exhaust housing would be ok to keep lag down, but a 0.48 would give less resistance to the exhaust gases, although this would raise the lag a little.
if you have he money, then find a GT28 turbo.
Last edited by xr2wishy; 29-12-2009 at 09:31 PM.
29-12-2009, 10:45 PM
#3
Advanced PassionFord User
no need to go anywhere near the gt28's if your planning on staying at 200 bhp as you only need to be consuning about 25lb of air but i would put some of jano's rods in it then if you do want to up the power a bit then you can as standard crank and pistons will do 300 bhp so with steel rods no big worries, the head i am un sure of but in a couple of weeks when i get back from holiday were going to be flow testing a norris /jamsport/standard head to see just what you gets for your money and if they can be improved upon, cam stay with a standard one and go megasquirt as really simple and good results can be had with plenty of people starting to say they'll map it sure if any of the above is wrong we'll be told but i hope that helps you
29-12-2009, 10:50 PM
#4
Hiya mate,
Cheers for the reply. I currently have a 2wd cosworth turbo, not sure on the housing (will check tomorrow) and 360deg thrust bearing. But i find this to be quite laggy, certainly more than i want.
But i guess the lag could also be caused by the t285 cam? Has any one got any experience with the t28 turbo? i would like a gt28 or even gt28rs but to be honest i don't want to spend the Ł800 odd
I don't mind adapting either a frst manifold or escort manifold to t25 flange (ie t28).
Cheers again
Rob,
Cheers for the reply. I currently have a 2wd cosworth turbo, not sure on the housing (will check tomorrow) and 360deg thrust bearing. But i find this to be quite laggy, certainly more than i want.
But i guess the lag could also be caused by the t285 cam? Has any one got any experience with the t28 turbo? i would like a gt28 or even gt28rs but to be honest i don't want to spend the Ł800 odd
I don't mind adapting either a frst manifold or escort manifold to t25 flange (ie t28).
Cheers again
Rob,
29-12-2009, 10:52 PM
#5
Cheers project RS!
It will be interesting to see some flow bench comparisons! Standard cam is something i hadn't considered to be honest, but if its doable then cool!
I would still like to look at the possibility of a faster spooling turbo though.
Also i do like the idea of megasquirt and have actually followed the development for a number of years, i think its great that more tuners are willing to map them these days instead of simply slagging them off. However the car will more than likely be mapped at TOTD and for better of worse they like the OMEX, and negatives aside, if they like the OMEX they will by nature do a better and faster job of mapping it than they would with a megasquirt system.
Rob,
It will be interesting to see some flow bench comparisons! Standard cam is something i hadn't considered to be honest, but if its doable then cool!
I would still like to look at the possibility of a faster spooling turbo though.
Also i do like the idea of megasquirt and have actually followed the development for a number of years, i think its great that more tuners are willing to map them these days instead of simply slagging them off. However the car will more than likely be mapped at TOTD and for better of worse they like the OMEX, and negatives aside, if they like the OMEX they will by nature do a better and faster job of mapping it than they would with a megasquirt system.
Rob,
Last edited by Rob_DOHC; 29-12-2009 at 10:55 PM. Reason: forgot to put STUFFF
30-12-2009, 10:25 AM
#7
Well the car is such low mileage and the shell is so good i just want to make a really nice every day car, i have a sierra project as well so this can have all the silly stuff done to it which i think ruins cars for the roads (coil overs etc).
I am considering going either way. An ECU like Motec or OMEX is more modern with faster microprocessors and i think larger tables. However EEC-IV or a Cosworth Pectel unit has had thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) spent by ford developing it, and im sure OMEX didn't do the same!
The aim isn't really to build the fastest rst, just as said a really nice but fairly quick road car. The car already has 180brake with 200lb/ft so isn't particularly slow, just not 100% reliable with the Bosch injection and set up too rich to get the power up top.......
Rob,
I am considering going either way. An ECU like Motec or OMEX is more modern with faster microprocessors and i think larger tables. However EEC-IV or a Cosworth Pectel unit has had thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) spent by ford developing it, and im sure OMEX didn't do the same!
The aim isn't really to build the fastest rst, just as said a really nice but fairly quick road car. The car already has 180brake with 200lb/ft so isn't particularly slow, just not 100% reliable with the Bosch injection and set up too rich to get the power up top.......
Rob,
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30-12-2009, 03:02 PM
#12
IMO standard head, cam, and bottom end, with a stage 2 T3 (.36/55) to make a genuine 200bhp your looking between 17psi and 20psi depending on how well it's mapped.
It seem that CVH cams are made from poor quality material in recent years so it's all a bit of a lottery as to how long they last, Newmans cams are better but their RST of the shelf profile is very laggy/lazy much like a 285T2
It seem that CVH cams are made from poor quality material in recent years so it's all a bit of a lottery as to how long they last, Newmans cams are better but their RST of the shelf profile is very laggy/lazy much like a 285T2
Last edited by Karlos G; 30-12-2009 at 03:05 PM.
30-12-2009, 10:00 PM
#13
Newmans cams are better but their RST of the shelf profile is very laggy/lazy much like a 285T2 
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Cheers
Rob,
31-12-2009, 12:37 PM
#15
Yes Ford still sell Cams make sure you get the lifters from them also, go with whatever management your chosen tuner is most familier with.
Newmans will make a custom cam profile for you but I do not know how much they charge might be worth a call to see, but you'll need to supply the spec cos inspite of making good quality cams they are not the best at profile design hence the lazy arsed off the shelf cam! lol
Newmans will make a custom cam profile for you but I do not know how much they charge might be worth a call to see, but you'll need to supply the spec cos inspite of making good quality cams they are not the best at profile design hence the lazy arsed off the shelf cam! lol
31-12-2009, 02:28 PM
#16
hence the lazy arsed off the shelf cam! lol 
the car will be mapped at TOTD and i think they are pretty familiar with both cosworth and OMEX management.
So i guess its a choice of going with the modern omex or with the older (but im sure with ŁŁŁ more development) P6, P8....
Cheers mate
Rob,
01-01-2010, 01:45 PM
#18
can any one tell me what trim the standard t3 for an rs turbo would be?
Currently my exhaust housing says .36 I think this is a 2wd cosworth turbo....?
and karlos, did your electronic boost controller control boost drop off a bit better?
The car currently peaks at 17.5 and falls very quickly to i think 14/15 psi this is with a new -31 actuator.... are there any ways to make the car hold boost better?
And i am about to start sourcing bits... what brand/model of bearing to people suggest? i don't think i will change the small ends as i have heard this is difficult to do and has often lead to them prematurely wearing. These will not be bought until my engine is stripped as i want to insect the crank etc first...
Rob,
Currently my exhaust housing says .36 I think this is a 2wd cosworth turbo....?
and karlos, did your electronic boost controller control boost drop off a bit better?
The car currently peaks at 17.5 and falls very quickly to i think 14/15 psi
this is with a new -31 actuator.... are there any ways to make the car hold boost better? And i am about to start sourcing bits... what brand/model of bearing to people suggest? i don't think i will change the small ends as i have heard this is difficult to do and has often lead to them prematurely wearing. These will not be bought until my engine is stripped as i want to insect the crank etc first...
Rob,
Last edited by Rob_DOHC; 01-01-2010 at 01:48 PM.
01-01-2010, 01:54 PM
#19
this is how we just done a 200hp engine,
standard head and cam
mahle pistons on a standard bottom end
55trim 2wd cossie turbo t3 with the standard .36 housing
efi inlet with a set of small turbo escort cossie injectors
mapped on the dyno on pectel t2 ecu and a boost control air injectors
it pulled 220 lbft torque
and 215 bhp at 20psi iirc
just by changing the head, cam, injectors and mapping it made 252 at 22 at 6000rpm and 255lbft at 4,4.5 and 5k !
the first stage engine was on boost well by 2200ish rpm
cant remember exact rpm tbh around that
with the cam and head work it moved it to 2700ish rpm
hope some of that helps
standard head and cam
mahle pistons on a standard bottom end
55trim 2wd cossie turbo t3 with the standard .36 housing
efi inlet with a set of small turbo escort cossie injectors
mapped on the dyno on pectel t2 ecu and a boost control air injectors
it pulled 220 lbft torque
and 215 bhp at 20psi iirc
just by changing the head, cam, injectors and mapping it made 252 at 22 at 6000rpm and 255lbft at 4,4.5 and 5k !
the first stage engine was on boost well by 2200ish rpm
cant remember exact rpm tbh around that
with the cam and head work it moved it to 2700ish rpm
hope some of that helps
Last edited by J1mbo; 01-01-2010 at 01:57 PM.
01-01-2010, 02:10 PM
#20
COOL, cheers for the reply mate! and the good news lol by mahle pistons... these being the standard cast jobbies? also standard bottom end meaning standard con rods?
What cam was used for the second run?
Cheers again (cool car btw, spent the best part of the day a while ago reading your project thread what engine do you have in it now?)
Rob,
What cam was used for the second run?
Cheers again (cool car btw, spent the best part of the day a while ago reading your project thread
what engine do you have in it now?) Rob,
01-01-2010, 02:17 PM
#21
it was a kent cam i cant remember what was put in it now the old fella choose it !
one of the mild ones,
yes everything standard, pistons mahle, rods, crank
very near the limit at 250 but thats what the customer wanted on a small budget and they have lasted well so far
my car is a 1.4 cvh
glad you like it 
ill be putting a 250hp rst lump in soon though hopefully, get one built up
one of the mild ones,
yes everything standard, pistons mahle, rods, crank
very near the limit at 250 but thats what the customer wanted on a small budget and they have lasted well so far
my car is a 1.4 cvh
glad you like it ill be putting a 250hp rst lump in soon though hopefully, get one built up
01-01-2010, 02:34 PM
#22
I should think a low(ish) boost zetec turbo on an mtx75 in a mk5 would work rather well...... and still be fairly economical ?!?!?!
I am planning for a spec similar to the second one you mentioned, with a standard/mild cam and boost turned down to get the 200 brake. I think this will give me a really reliable, easy to drive etcect engine. i would really love to be close to 200 brake a 16-17psi, but we shall see.
Rob,
I am planning for a spec similar to the second one you mentioned, with a standard/mild cam and boost turned down to get the 200 brake. I think this will give me a really reliable, easy to drive etcect engine. i would really love to be close to 200 brake a 16-17psi, but we shall see.
Rob,
01-01-2010, 03:53 PM
#25
can any one tell me what trim the standard t3 for an rs turbo would be?
Currently my exhaust housing says .36 I think this is a 2wd cosworth turbo....?
and karlos, did your electronic boost controller control boost drop off a bit better?
The car currently peaks at 17.5 and falls very quickly to i think 14/15 psi this is with a new -31 actuator.... are there any ways to make the car hold boost better?
And i am about to start sourcing bits... what brand/model of bearing to people suggest? i don't think i will change the small ends as i have heard this is difficult to do and has often lead to them prematurely wearing. These will not be bought until my engine is stripped as i want to insect the crank etc first...
Rob,
Currently my exhaust housing says .36 I think this is a 2wd cosworth turbo....?
and karlos, did your electronic boost controller control boost drop off a bit better?
The car currently peaks at 17.5 and falls very quickly to i think 14/15 psi
this is with a new -31 actuator.... are there any ways to make the car hold boost better? And i am about to start sourcing bits... what brand/model of bearing to people suggest? i don't think i will change the small ends as i have heard this is difficult to do and has often lead to them prematurely wearing. These will not be bought until my engine is stripped as i want to insect the crank etc first...
Rob,
2/3psi boost drop off is normal Rob.
01-01-2010, 05:56 PM
#29
.36 is the standard RST housing mate, dont know if 2WD is the same or not it might be but just with a bigger comp wheel (55).
2/3psi boost drop off is normal Rob.
2/3psi boost drop off is normal Rob.
Did your boost drop off improve after you fitted you controller?
just the same as the fezza rst, same inlet everything, just change the injectors, even use the standard engine loom as it splits and will mate with the t2 loom there 
lol yeah but air injection is a million miles away from bleed valve/EBC boost control!
and i have heard of air injectors being used as a method for boost control in the past.... but i don't actually know the principals? or the advantages/disadvantages, Does the air injector feed onto the actuator, adjusting wastegate position? or does it do something more trick than that?Nice one lads
Rob,
01-01-2010, 06:03 PM
#30
I always undervalued that funny search button you get on forums.... but its really rather useful:
Air injection For any one like me.....
Air injection For any one like me.....
01-01-2010, 10:32 PM
#31
A good boost controller can force the turbo to try and hold a certain boost by constantly increasing the amount bled off, but really if your turbo is spec'd correctly for your engine it shouldnt have any trouble holding the boost you want.
When I fitted my Apexi AVC-R it did not hold any better than before, but thats because i did not have a problem with boost drop off in the first place.............2/3psi is normal, you will always get a spike when the turbo first spools up because of the time it takes for the actuator to respond once you've reached your desired preload.
When I fitted my Apexi AVC-R it did not hold any better than before, but thats because i did not have a problem with boost drop off in the first place.............2/3psi is normal, you will always get a spike when the turbo first spools up because of the time it takes for the actuator to respond once you've reached your desired preload.
01-01-2010, 10:37 PM
#32
cheers for clearing that up mate. I suppose that if you had a boost controlling system that could be mapped, you could predict ahead and minimise the boost spike?
I think (now you have put me right lol) that my problem wasn't so much boost drop off, but infact a large boost spike..... being the time taken for the actuator to do its job...
Rob,
I think (now you have put me right lol) that my problem wasn't so much boost drop off, but infact a large boost spike.....
being the time taken for the actuator to do its job...Rob,
02-01-2010, 05:11 PM
#35
You can get them from here http://www.part-box.com/apexi-avcr-a...r-p-14985.html but they are not cheap.......... although I did get a very good deal on mine!
02-01-2010, 10:20 PM
#40
was going to say a spike can be mapped out with altering timing and fuelling at a high boost level.
boost control is a good methed of aiding this too, another great feature of megasquirt on the faster processors
air to air injectors are a great idea, something i'm still yet to get done on mine, but maybe when i get a bit of time i will get round to.