FAO Karlos G.....
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luxembourgrst (26-07-2020)
15-05-2009, 04:21 PM
#3
I was going to speak to you about this when i'm up there but as I have your attention thought i'd run it by you now........
I'm still MFI so I overfuel between Idle and Full Load WOT as all RS's do, as I have a AVC-R which allows boost/rpm mapping I was thinking after we find the fuelling limit of my metering head and as a result my boost, can we then map in more boost midrange to make use of all that wasted fuel?
I know this will give me a massive boost spike but I would gain a lot of midrange torque/acceleration/response!
For example and these figures are all hypothetical!
Lets say at 6400rpm WOT we are running 14psi as this is all the metering unit will fuel for, could we peek at say 20psi @ 3000rpm and then gradually decrease the boost at 500rpm intervals:
3500rpm 19psi,
4000rpm 18psi,
4500rpm 17psi,
5000rpm 16psi,
5500rpm 15psi,
6000rpm 14psi.
Trying to keep as close to the optimum AFR through out the rev range as possible.
I know there are a lot of other variables to consider like can my turbo even hit 20psi by 3000rpm, and the timing cant be mapped to help control Det etc... but you see the principle behind my idea! We cant map out the excess fuel but we can map in more air to make use of it!
What are your thoughts mate?
I'm still MFI so I overfuel between Idle and Full Load WOT as all RS's do, as I have a AVC-R which allows boost/rpm mapping I was thinking after we find the fuelling limit of my metering head and as a result my boost, can we then map in more boost midrange to make use of all that wasted fuel?
I know this will give me a massive boost spike but I would gain a lot of midrange torque/acceleration/response!
For example and these figures are all hypothetical!
Lets say at 6400rpm WOT we are running 14psi as this is all the metering unit will fuel for, could we peek at say 20psi @ 3000rpm and then gradually decrease the boost at 500rpm intervals:
3500rpm 19psi,
4000rpm 18psi,
4500rpm 17psi,
5000rpm 16psi,
5500rpm 15psi,
6000rpm 14psi.
Trying to keep as close to the optimum AFR through out the rev range as possible.
I know there are a lot of other variables to consider like can my turbo even hit 20psi by 3000rpm, and the timing cant be mapped to help control Det etc... but you see the principle behind my idea! We cant map out the excess fuel but we can map in more air to make use of it!
What are your thoughts mate?
Last edited by Karlos G; 18-05-2009 at 11:59 AM.
18-05-2009, 10:43 AM
#6
It is if you use a electronic boost controller that has RPM/Boost mapping, I run a Apexi AVC-R which does! 
My idea is that anything to help keep the correct (or near to it) AFR throght out the rev range is going to be better for response, torque, and acceleration as the car will not be overfuelling like it normally would, this of course only works when your foot is planted and not if your just cruising, but thats when you want the most from the car anyway.
My idea is that anything to help keep the correct (or near to it) AFR throght out the rev range is going to be better for response, torque, and acceleration as the car will not be overfuelling like it normally would, this of course only works when your foot is planted and not if your just cruising, but thats when you want the most from the car anyway.
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18-05-2009, 10:54 AM
#8
MFI does yes, as you can only set the Idle Fuelling and the Full Load WOT fuelling.
When it's setup on the R/R to run say 14psi of boost the fuel pressure is adjusted so that your fuelling correctly for Full load (AFR 11.8:1 approx @ 6400rpm, wide open throttle, 3rd Gear as a rule) so what your fuelling midrange is relative to that final fuel pressure (the higher it is the more you overfuel, the lower it is the less you overfuel).
When it's setup on the R/R to run say 14psi of boost the fuel pressure is adjusted so that your fuelling correctly for Full load (AFR 11.8:1 approx @ 6400rpm, wide open throttle, 3rd Gear as a rule) so what your fuelling midrange is relative to that final fuel pressure (the higher it is the more you overfuel, the lower it is the less you overfuel).
Last edited by Karlos G; 18-05-2009 at 12:00 PM.
18-05-2009, 11:03 AM
#9
Karl,
It's not a bad idea in principle, but in reality, I'm not sure how practical it will be.
Lately, we've found the advanced features of the AVC-R (and similar complex controllers) a pain in the arse, in terms of hitting desired settings.
Either way, we'll see what we can do.
It's not a bad idea in principle, but in reality, I'm not sure how practical it will be.
Lately, we've found the advanced features of the AVC-R (and similar complex controllers) a pain in the arse, in terms of hitting desired settings.
Either way, we'll see what we can do.
18-05-2009, 11:59 AM
#10
Thats all I wanted to hear mate!
I thought the principle was sound, and as you say what actually is achievable remains to be seen, i'll be happy with anything thats an improvement over not trying, after all there is fuel there being wasted that could be put to good use!!
Looking forward to the 6th..... should be interesting!
I thought the principle was sound, and as you say what actually is achievable remains to be seen, i'll be happy with anything thats an improvement over not trying, after all there is fuel there being wasted that could be put to good use!!
Looking forward to the 6th..... should be interesting!
18-05-2009, 12:08 PM
#13
I'll post my graphs up when i'm back, should see a nice torque spike! 
hehehe
Yes it should!!
Thankfully the AVC-R also has gear based boost control so I can back it off a bit in 1st and 2nd to try and retain some traction, and then full wack in 3rd 4th and 5th where you really want it
hehehe Yes it should!!
Thankfully the AVC-R also has gear based boost control so I can back it off a bit in 1st and 2nd to try and retain some traction, and then full wack in 3rd 4th and 5th where you really want it
Last edited by Karlos G; 18-05-2009 at 12:10 PM.
18-05-2009, 04:06 PM
#14
I'll post my graphs up when i'm back, should see a nice torque spike! hehehe
Yes it should!!
Thankfully the AVC-R also has gear based boost control so I can back it off a bit in 1st and 2nd to try and retain some traction, and then full wack in 3rd 4th and 5th where you really want it
hehehe Yes it should!!
Thankfully the AVC-R also has gear based boost control so I can back it off a bit in 1st and 2nd to try and retain some traction, and then full wack in 3rd 4th and 5th where you really want it
Why would you want a huge torque spike
, its only going to give you loads of wheelspin which will get you know where 
18-05-2009, 04:23 PM
#16
Thats half the fun! But it wont just feel fast it will be fast! The faster I can accelerate the faster I will get to a desired speed...... 0-60 for example!
Last edited by Karlos G; 18-05-2009 at 04:28 PM.
18-05-2009, 04:27 PM
#17
Acceleration!! Did you not read the post you quoted? There will be no wheelspin as the boost will be backed off to the point of traction in 1st and 2nd, might get some in 3rd but thats controllable with the pedal
Thats half the fun! But it wont just feel fast it will be fast DD
Thats half the fun! But it wont just feel fast it will be fast DD
Even you say yourself
Thankfully the AVC-R also has gear based boost control so I can back it off a bit in 1st and 2nd to try and retain some traction
You will get traction issues
A nice flat boost curve is what you want so the car wont just feel fast, then it will be fast as you wont be getting spikes and loosing traction.
18-05-2009, 04:33 PM
#19
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I was going to speak to you about this when i'm up there but as I have your attention thought i'd run it by you now........
I'm still MFI so I overfuel between Idle and Full Load WOT as all RS's do, as I have a AVC-R which allows boost/rpm mapping I was thinking after we find the fuelling limit of my metering head and as a result my boost, can we then map in more boost midrange to make use of all that wasted fuel?
I know this will give me a massive boost spike but I would gain a lot of midrange torque/acceleration/response!
For example and these figures are all hypothetical!
Lets say at 6400rpm WOT we are running 14psi as this is all the metering unit will fuel for, could we peek at say 20psi @ 3000rpm and then gradually decrease the boost at 500rpm intervals:
3500rpm 19psi,
4000rpm 18psi,
4500rpm 17psi,
5000rpm 16psi,
5500rpm 15psi,
6000rpm 14psi.
Trying to keep as close to the optimum AFR through out the rev range as possible.
I know there are a lot of other variables to consider like can my turbo even hit 20psi by 3000rpm, and the timing cant be mapped to help control Det etc... but you see the principle behind my idea! We cant map out the excess fuel but we can map in more air to make use of it!
What are your thoughts mate?
I'm still MFI so I overfuel between Idle and Full Load WOT as all RS's do, as I have a AVC-R which allows boost/rpm mapping I was thinking after we find the fuelling limit of my metering head and as a result my boost, can we then map in more boost midrange to make use of all that wasted fuel?
I know this will give me a massive boost spike but I would gain a lot of midrange torque/acceleration/response!
For example and these figures are all hypothetical!
Lets say at 6400rpm WOT we are running 14psi as this is all the metering unit will fuel for, could we peek at say 20psi @ 3000rpm and then gradually decrease the boost at 500rpm intervals:
3500rpm 19psi,
4000rpm 18psi,
4500rpm 17psi,
5000rpm 16psi,
5500rpm 15psi,
6000rpm 14psi.
Trying to keep as close to the optimum AFR through out the rev range as possible.
I know there are a lot of other variables to consider like can my turbo even hit 20psi by 3000rpm, and the timing cant be mapped to help control Det etc... but you see the principle behind my idea! We cant map out the excess fuel but we can map in more air to make use of it!
What are your thoughts mate?
Hi Karlos G
Very very interesting ..........
Keep us updated mate!!
18-05-2009, 04:35 PM
#20
I will also have a smoother boost curve for daily driving (Apexi can store 2 different maps) still the same final boost but gentler getting there which will also be a lot easier on the engine and gearbox, but it's nice to have the more agressive map there if I want it at the press of a button.
At least this is my plan!
Thanks, yes I will do!
Last edited by Karlos G; 18-05-2009 at 04:41 PM.
18-05-2009, 09:56 PM
#22
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Will be interesting to see how well this theory works....think you might be expecting quite alot from what is basically just a fancy boost controller though imo, the car still won't be 'mapped' for the varying boosts/boost curves you want to use so won't be anything like fulfilling it's potential.
Last edited by rstdave; 18-05-2009 at 10:14 PM.
19-05-2009, 09:14 AM
#24
Cheers mate, it'll be fun what ever happens! 
Yeah it will be interesting, it's as much an experiment as anything else!
It wont be mapped in the traditional sense of the term (fuelling/ignition) but the boost will be, on 99% or RS's the boost is controlled by the actuator and maybe a bleed valve this gives you a fixed amount of boost and the way it makes that boost is down to the characteristics of that particular engine.
With the AVC-R you can map the exact amount of boost you want at 500rpm intervals, so the idea is that where i'm rich we'll add in some extra air to try and get closer to the desired AFR, if it were EFI you'd just map out the fuel instead, which is better, but i'm just trying to make the best of have I have right now!
Yeah eveyone says that and it makes perfect sense when you realise just how rich the MFI RS is midrange when running high boost, i'm hoping to go EFI in the next year but money does not allow it right now so it will have to wait.
Will be interesting to see how well this theory works....think you might be expecting quite alot from what is basically just a fancy boost controller though imo, the car still won't be 'mapped' for the varying boosts/boost curves you want to use so won't be anything like fulfilling it's potential.
It wont be mapped in the traditional sense of the term (fuelling/ignition) but the boost will be, on 99% or RS's the boost is controlled by the actuator and maybe a bleed valve this gives you a fixed amount of boost and the way it makes that boost is down to the characteristics of that particular engine.
With the AVC-R you can map the exact amount of boost you want at 500rpm intervals, so the idea is that where i'm rich we'll add in some extra air to try and get closer to the desired AFR, if it were EFI you'd just map out the fuel instead, which is better, but i'm just trying to make the best of have I have right now!
Yeah eveyone says that and it makes perfect sense when you realise just how rich the MFI RS is midrange when running high boost, i'm hoping to go EFI in the next year but money does not allow it right now so it will have to wait.
Last edited by Karlos G; 19-05-2009 at 09:16 AM.
19-05-2009, 09:26 AM
#25
Karl, we will happily try some stuff out, but don't get too carried away with the AVC-R's capabilities. On paper it's a great controller, but unless the operating parameters are perfect (highly unlikely with an MFi RST!!), it'll be unlikely to do what you're expecting. As I've said before, we usually turn all the fancy shit off and make it into a basic controller, because the gadgetry is often counter-productive. 
19-05-2009, 09:29 AM
#26
Yeah like i said it's an experiment and a bit of fun as much as anything, I know we can only do so much with an old RS!!
All I want to try do is find what I can fuel for (Full load), then find what I can peek at (midrange), and then keep as near to that peek as possible gradually fading down to final boost at full load, to try and use all that wasted fuel.
Dont worry i'm not expecting miracles or anything! It will be a laugh if nothing else! lol
All I want to try do is find what I can fuel for (Full load), then find what I can peek at (midrange), and then keep as near to that peek as possible gradually fading down to final boost at full load, to try and use all that wasted fuel.
Dont worry i'm not expecting miracles or anything! It will be a laugh if nothing else! lol
Last edited by Karlos G; 19-05-2009 at 09:39 AM.
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