How much would a alloy smith and Jones full bottom end cost guys with proper crank ,Rods ,pistons etc.
complete just needing top end bolted to

 

A lot lol
But the best way to go if your going racing

 

I think you would do £4k block, £1.5k to £2k Pistons and Rods, squirt jets £300, crank £2k, oil pump with Wrc mods, big wing sump, bearings plus someone to screw it together and maybe incidentals £4k plus. It is not a cheap thing to do.

 

Around 12-14k i would say.

 

Allow £18k and you won't get too many shocks. You want the newer one with bolts right through to the main caps. Not sure if I would paint or not but the ally block will fur up and go white over time, clear coat or paint and lacquer? I thin it needs to be blue and painted then lacquered.

 

A Honda or Volvo engine would probably be cheaper lol

 

Yes, Honda Civic 1.1 vtec, similar power too.

You are right though, some modern engines would be much less.

 

It's hard to see where the market is for this.

It's for those who want a Ford...Cossie...all singing and dancing engine...except it is neither of those. It's mega expensive...which also means when something goes wrong or needs replaced, replacement parts are also very expensive.

Being not a Ford...surely for any racing classes it's the same as a engine swap anyway as far as rules go ?

There's a lot to be said for moving to more modern stuff, even if it can also be a large investment to make the change. But could probably still be done with supporting mods, intake/exhaust etc for less than a S&J ?


But they are very nice looking engines...as much as there is probably a lot of merit in the long stud design where it goes through the main caps. I wonder how that pans out on real live ?
ie how's a head gasket swap ? Easy or hard ? things like that

 

With the price off old cossie blocks now and for those after big power they look a good option by the time youve got your cossie block linerd long studded ect cost of block your not far off and its still 25+ years old the s&j is 25kg lighter with options 2.0 2.2 2.4 charlie shaws shows what reliable big power these make ive heard horror stories aswell but if going 600+ look a good way to go when i looked at the cost of taking my 550 spec mountune to 650+ the work it and cost it wouldve took was alot and id like somthing capable of more but back it off so it lasts abit longer not be on the limits feels the right option

 

Cranks 3 is it not? Proper rods and pistons 2 grand block price going by there web page is about 4 grand with oil spray jets and 10 long studs. I guess you would have to allow 2-3 for oil pump bearings gaskets putting it together if you paid someone.

 

Think an arrow was about 2500 when i looked

 

thanks for input guys ,and yes it does look expensive at the outset

i wonder though if you do a comparison with building up using a old 200 block how it would look .

im not talking mega power ,say maybe 550/500 .its about reliability over the years .cracked blocks,running bearings through block flex etc

all engines either way needs ,cranks ,pistons rods ,spray jets etc and someone to put them together either way .
you do however do away with machining costs and you are using superior materials.

i would like one bigpower engine ,so just debating the pros and cons

 

I can roughly answer that lol standard grind crank off a friend 500 used 200 block from mt motorsport 500. Rods and pistons 2 grand. Liners and long studs fitted plus a line bore 2300 if I remember right.

 

andy so the block itself including machining was

£500 for block
£2300 for liners and machining?


does the smith and jones block take a standard cosworth crank?

 

My block was 500 quid yes and my liners studs line bore and machinery was if I remember right without checking was about 2300 I think.
Yes that block dose take a standard crank but would you go to the extreme of a modern alloy block and fit a 20 year old crank?

 

Price in everything else that goes with mate gearbox diffs ecu turbo coolers clutch ect i was going the 200 block route but just looked at the above reasons and costs yes its more but whats abit of time will just take longer getting it bit by bit to ease the pain lol im at a full stop may not even go thier yet depends on my shell guy

 

so thats £2800 for block ,or 4k for new s&j block.

this is where it starts evening out a bit andy

 

Something you would have to look into mate. My crank came from a friend so I got it cheep my block at 500 quid was cheap not sure if you would still get one. Different types of liners out there I took the route my tuner uses. Would have to be something you would need to seriously price up. But in a road car that’s not going to be thrashed to death in the red line every time it’s driven like a race/track build you have to surly ask yourself dose 25kg justify that extra expense. 200 block with liners must be strong enough after all rod did over 20 thousand miles driven very hard on the road with a number of 200mph runs. But he did have a fancy crank. But at the power level your talking more than strong enough don’t you think?

 

just playing devils advocate here andy

i have a standard 200 block and crank all mint and for the power level im looking it would probably be overkill to use liners .i just dont fancy problems further down the road .i understand rods engines have lasted well and have been caned .

might never happen lol

 

90% if my bits are there ready to go together if I had to start again I’d most likely seriously consider an alloy block. But I’m happy that what I have will be up to the job as a fast road car

 

should be a monster when done andy

 

Andy im not saying what youve got isnt upto it or it wont be reliable no doubt it will be for what i wanted the s&j made more sense i seen mark say on his fb that a high powerd yb 700ish 10k miles if tracked 30k on road that opened my eyes abit

 

that should last about 20 years so lol

 

I agree without doubt it’s going to be a better option if you can justify it. I guess it comes down to wear you draw the line there very expensive if your after big numbers. But one is a fair few thousand cheaper. Track will be hard on an engine as your using it on its limits your not going to do that on the road in something with huge power. 10k miles on a track engine I’m guessing that rebuild will be strip for wear inspection and new bearings if nothing has gone wrong. Regardless alloy block or ford block that’s going to be the same

 

True mate the mountune 200 was to good to strip and dig out for liners has put a good bit towards the s&j if it happens

 

exactly that block has been really tested now and takes the power easily some race series let them in now seeing as blocks are hard to find and the weight difference is better to so it a plus plus win win situation

 

If you have a good 200 block then the gap is wider, if you need to buy a block then go ally imo. The days of finding a £500 block are over I think and it is more a case of IF you can fine one then how much will it take to buy it? I bet £1500 is closer to what you need to pay for one now?

 

They have gone up big time but if your after one to put liners in then if you can find one with worn or damaged bores then I guess you can save money

 

Lets face it...the standard crank is pretty damn strong, so if it is in good order and within power goals....why not ?

Obviously there are those who favour expensive brand names, but there are cheaper brand names out there who make cranks too if they wanted new.

It's easy to get carried away and buying new parts....when a lot of the time if it aint broke...and aint gona break, dont fix it !

How many actually have broken a standard crank through the only fault being it was inadequate ?

One good advantage of S&J, is that they offer a proper tall block ? No messing about there..and of course less weight is always a bonus

But then head goes up, exhaust ports and fitment issues that can surround that. Nothing a bit of time and labour cant sort though

 

I guess for me if I was going all out I’d have it with a modern crank to change the stroke

 

But that's changing for a different reason...a larger engine.

If building a standard stroke engine as many do...maybe not a lot of point changing

Of course when S&J offer a tall block and easier access to a nice stroker engine...that makes a lot of sense too. Would seem pointless to go to that expense and not go bigger when you can, unless some rules somewhere dont permit it

 

Cossie Dave's standard crank bent at 701bhp so perhaps keeping it in the low 600s might be ok. After that I would go for something new and as Stevie says why not go stroker if going to new block and new crank etc.

Just took my car out for a blat and it was wheel spinning in second at 4000rpm on high boost as the roads are cold and damp. At one point I was sure I was in third due to how hard it was pulling, it was in 5th and I had no more gears to go...that's with 469bhp, makes me wonder what it would be like at 600 and more torque of a stroker.

 

 

Youd have fun taming it plenty of adtenaline pumped aswell as smelly farts

 

Would you recommend any other cranks besides the farandon or arrows Stevie?

Ones that don't cost 2.5k

 

Genuine question Stevie do you know of any modern 4 cylinder turbo engines that are better for tuning? I think most need liners and some need pins due to the open deck design? Hondas are good for 400-500 on standard internals (k20) but I wouldn't think the block would be happy at 700+.

 

Surly there’s a few 4 pot turbos good for 500 odd bhp I should imagine all 4 pots get expensive if you decide to go for over 600bhp

 

The Mitsubishi evo engine seems pretty good and werent some of them forged or better than others? Really for 700bhp you want to go bigger capacity surely, ally v8 yank stuff will do 700 out of the crate. American speed sell them. 4 pot though it is a highly stressed engine, especially in 2 litres.

 

I think the only cons are the cost.
It has all the pros. I can’t see a downside.
I debated it but having a good 200 block already I’m sticking with it, if I didn’t though I’d def consider it

Cheers Paul

 

£2300 for lining and machining is a joke.
Mine cost nowhere near that

Cheers Paul