moondustka

As title, did a little search and couldn't find much info here or google apart from other makes of car.

What I'm wondering (because I've had a bonkers moment that seems it's not going to leave) is if this is really as bad as some odd posts say they are. If done correctly, surely it would work well? After all, there's a good few converted mid engine'd hill climb, track and drag cars out there?

I've gist of what I've read seems to be that they are mostly a pile of poo because people have done it on a budget (clearly) and used front end stuff in the rear. If the suspension setup was fabricated correctly, it would be fine?

I think I have got to the end of how far to go with FWD (and there are several FWD cars with more power than mine) and before I spend a load more time and a load more money trying to improve what I've got, I'm exploring other options.

My train of thought has been to stick my engine in a Lotus, but the one I would want is at least £20k. Plus it's got the wrong badge, I'm Ford through and through and it's more of a challenge in my car. Don't get me wrong, it would be a better car being put in a Lotus but if I could end up with it performing somewhere towards a Lotus I think I would be happy.

Fullflush

So you have already space-framed your FWD car?

moondustka

No, and re-reading my post.. I mean that I think I have got to how far I want to go with FWD, not how far I could go.

And I don't think space framing the car will bridge the gap in advantages of RWD or 4WD

stevieturbo

I've no idea what the question even is !! lol

Is there a question in there ?

Or is he buying a Ford GT ?

It's Czech Mate

Why go mid engined? Why not front engine, rear drive, surely that better weight distribution and easier to do to a ford

visa_broke

I presume he wants to know if he'd be better:

putting his fwd (I presume the focus rs engine) in the rear of either his puma or putting the engine into a different brand car in the rear (the lotus)

I'm not sure the puma would be the best for a rwd setup but there are other fords that could be good, there have been a couple of escort's with rwd setups

moondustka

Sorry for rambling first post.

The question is, what's the evidence to suggest that mounting the engine 'mid engine'd' is a bad idea?

Would love a Ford GT if someone would buy me one

Mid-engine'd is one of the best option for weight distribution. In the Puma, the engine would actually end up pretty central. The reason I am thinking mid engine'd is because it's more simple for me to do (personally I think), cheaper and less transmission loss over front engine RWD or 4WD. The car is a a big toy really, I don't need it to quiet/comfortable, just surprising

moondustka

Just found that the Puma (and therefore fiesta as well I'm guessing) is a longer wheelbase than a Lotus Elise, so in theory.. and only theory, it should be ok.

Puma/Fiesta = 2446mm
Lotus Elise = 2300mm
Lotus Exige = 2370mm

stevieturbo

Well without knowing anything about the car, power, usage, application, whatever....

Bit hard for anyone to suggest what might be better or worse.

moondustka

It's a Puma, FRS engine, currently approx 320hp.

Primarily used as a road car, with some intention of track time. Mainly for fun.

It still handles quite well, but with that much power spins the wheels, using R888s all round.

With it mid-engine, in theory it should be much better balanced, same transmission loss and be pushing onto the rear wheels duriNg acceleration.

stevieturbo

I'd be wondering if you're underestimating the task of moving it all to the rear ?

Balance will depend on weight distribution....as well as suspension/chassis setup all round. So nobody can say whether it will end up better balanced or not...and even that is a very open to debate term, as every driver could have a different opinion.

If you get it wrong, it could be an ill handing POS, if you get it right, it might be fantastic.. But short wheelbase, mid engine....ever driven a MR2 ? I wouldnt call them well balanced, I'd say they're tail happy as fuck ( or go round in circles like fuck lol )

But yes mid engine will offer more traction, there is no doubt about that

If you've a good FWD setup all running and working....IMO if you're considering such a project, you'd be better buying another car and doing it rather than potentially destroying a fully working car.

moondustka

After some research, I've found most mid-engined cars will come round on you if you aren't respectful of them!

Don't think wheelbase is a problem given the lenghts of other mid-engined cars.

And yes, you're right it's a lot of work, not sure it's too dissimilar from trying to go RWD or 4WD.

And also thought about getting another shell instead, think that might be a good idea.

Edit: if I do get this project to the road, I would need to go to an airfield first as I'm no greatest driver and have limited experience with RWD.

Some tuition on track might be wise also

mrbox

I had a RWD mini once with a rover T series (220 coupe?) engine in it.


UNDRIVABLE lol


to be fair it was vey badly executed!

moondustka

If I were to do it I would hope it wouldn't be considered as badly executed. I would have to make the best effort to correctly convert the car

mrbox

I wasn't suggesting that! just trying to find a picture but to give you an idea it had mk5 escort inner wings welded in the back struts and all!

moondustka

Oh!

No, I would be fabricating completely fresh stuff for a the engine and suspension components! Maybe even custom hubs - some nice aluminium billet items from MK spring to mind

Adam-M

Moondustka I recognise that name from zsoc.com? I think you'd be better lengthways mounting the engine and going rwd.

Rear/mid engine I can imagine being a big challenge especially with cooling.

moondustka

I'm not on that particular forum. I might have signed up once upon of time to access some info though.

That way round is probably a safer bet, but I don't want the transmission losses. The only cooling issue I can foresee being a bit of a challenge is for the turbo.

stevieturbo

If the engine comes bolted to a conventional transverse fwd box...it would make perfect sense to retain that for mid engine. Plus they're extremely compact in that configuration. Cooling shouldnt be an issue and with no engine up front you've tons of room for a radiator etc.

And even for suspension, hubs etc...I would always try and use readily available parts. Custom parts are all good and well until you bang a kerb or something and need a replacement. The more OEM parts you can use the better.

Adam-M

Fair do's sounds like your minds made up, however I doubt you'd notice the transmission loss (probably an extra 10%) and even if you did you could easily up the power and have a bigger rwd box to cope with that.

Be sure to start a build thread If you do as it sounds interesting.

moondustka

I just wonder whether by trying to use off the shelf parts, that's where the handling capability will be compromised. Or perhaps I will have to try and get clever with it.

visa_broke

After reading your progress on the car so far i've no doubt whatever you do end up deciding you will succeed. You've done some interesting work so far.

I remember driving a mk1 (the first shape?) mr2 of my mates, managed to spin that quite easily without even trying. It had a blowing exhaust but sounded amazing and not bad for the 100 quid my mate paid for it.

moondustka

Thanks. I'll start a thread on here anyway, for whichever way the car goes

I was reading an MR2 forum last night. The consensus of mid engine'd cars seems to be treat them with respect and learn how to drive them, they can be extremely good.

It's Czech Mate

A transaxle car like a 944 would be a good template. I've not seen any mid engine conversions that drive that well, there's been a few over the years on here.


Still , will be interesting to watch either way

stevieturbo

No matter what way it is built, there will always be custom parts somewhere, but there are many OEM hubs etc that could be utilised which would keep costs down.

Ultimately layout, suspension design outside of this as well as geometry will all factor into how it handles far above any individual OEM parts used.

The front engine, rear transaxle would certainly be another option and probably give a very nice safe weight balance...but it would also heavily eat into passenger space in the cabin.

The mid engine, transverse, ie fwd layout would be by far the easiest as the entire drivetrain is a single package that just needs moved.

gcfcos

My 2 pence worth is every mid or rear engined car I've driven had to be treated with serious respect or it will come round on you. I've even heard a Ferrari expert say he prefers the front engined ferraris of old as they handled much better. I'm no expert mind and not a racing driver lol

moondustka

Thanks for replies. This is a serious idea for me so any help or ideas are appreciated.

I have found a lot of threads on various forums about having to treat mid engine'd cars with respect. I think what I've got from it is you can't just get in one and drive it, you need to learn it.

My next step is to get a plan together, so currently looking a at rear hub options. Obviously I could use front hubs but I just don't like that idea much.

stevieturbo

Find a similar style car....eg Lotus, VX220, MR2 etc etc and get the entire rear cradle etc from that

Although nothing at all using a front end from the engine donor vehicle as a base, it may require some custom arms or something, but at least a front end hub will allow easy adjustment etc.

moondustka

As far as I know the Lotus Elise/Exige doesn't have any cradles/subframe (for the rear anyway). The suspension components bolt to the aluminium chassis.

For now the front of my Puma setup will stay. I will have to add adjustable top mounts so the geometry can be adjusted. I will have to clamp the existing front hubs with some machined CV cups. This might be changed later on when the car is on the road.

As for the rear, I'm still working on that. Apparently a mk5 escort rs2000 4x4 uses mk3 fiesta front hubs?? Front hubs still might happen but I'm exploring rear hub options first. Some kits cars use Sierra hubs.

stevieturbo

I think some Skylines have fairly large rear alloy uprights.

But from a simplicity point of view if you just move the front end back....all driveshafts etc will still work.

stu21t

If you think mid mounting the engine is cheaper/easier the front engine and rwd or 4wd

Then you're batshit crazy

Check my project thread

stevieturbo

If you're doing all the fabrication yourself, I wouldnt say there is a huge cost difference.

Of course you could choose to spend a lot more, but equally you could choose to keep it on a tighter budget.

moondustka

I have looked over and over the car, I don't think it's that bad. Definitely cheaper I reckon.

Stevie, I've been thinking a lot about how to do this, so I may end up using front Puma hubs. I can always change it at a later date - I just want the geometry to be right. After getting the engine in the right place and as low as possible, this will be the difference between it driving and corning like dog shite or being pretty darn good. I need to make it adjustable everywhere so I can take it to someone who knows the maths and science behind chassis dynamics, then they can get it set up right. That way I shouldn't end up in a hedge on the first corner!

Failing the Puma hub route, I think it might be a custom job.

Thanks for all the input.

Adam-M

Surely puma front hubs would be better so you could use the front suspension for the rear as that will be suited to the weight of an engine and gearbox?

moondustka

I would need new suspension anyway and extra weight will be taken into account with spring rates

bj928

i'm working on a mid engined vehicle idea at the moment, and have been for a while, but its going to be proper mid engine, with the engine inline behind the front seats, not transverse like a lot of the modern production mid engine cars, its going to v8 twin turbo, wanted supercharged but friend has persuaded me twin turbo is a better idea, all the parts i will be using initially will be off the shelf second hand parts, just so i can do a mock up before buying parts that will take the power,

stevieturbo

Only difficulty with this...is finding decent, affordable transaxles that can take decent power...and offer sensible gearing. Most seem to be rated for around 5-600hp at best although some will probably take more than that depending on actual usage.

IMO, it would be worth considering adapting the GTR box for mid/rwd only.

I know I've thought about it !

bj928

i'm using an upgraded T56 as part of the hybrid transaxle, should take the power,

stevieturbo

If it's like the Vette transaxle...they suck. They make any drivetrain excessively long, and lose much of the weight over the wheels benefit from actually doing a mid/transaxle install in the first place.

And apparently it takes a good few quid to make the Vette transaxle take power reliably. Not sure which aspect of it is weak though as they look pretty big but you always see the Vette guys complaining saying they are weak.

bj928

yes the corvette setup but using a mustang GT500 T56 as i don't want the gear select rod coming out the front, and will get the strongest parts i can from an after market source, so hopefully not have to any breaking issues, still more research to do, to find strongest set up, already got Ford GT super car heads to fit a 5.4, the diff in the corvette set up is a Gatrag so should be strong, it will be a long set up, and will put the engine way forward, but for what i'm doing that is fine,