New Wideband AFR kit on test....
26-01-2005, 09:50 AM
#81
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The resistor is what provides the calibration, hence the variation!
Personally i would pay £60 for a sensor that has been calibrated by bosch, rather £500 quid for a sensor that has been calibrated by bosch then calibrated again to improve accuracy by a just few percent! Just my opinion though!
I will dyno test these sensors sometime soon and see what the results are, actions and hard data is much better than speculation!
Cheers
Darren
Personally i would pay £60 for a sensor that has been calibrated by bosch, rather £500 quid for a sensor that has been calibrated by bosch then calibrated again to improve accuracy by a just few percent! Just my opinion though!
I will dyno test these sensors sometime soon and see what the results are, actions and hard data is much better than speculation!
Cheers
Darren
26-01-2005, 09:54 AM
#82
Professional Waffler
Originally Posted by ON-UJAH
Gareth - what EGT's are you reading there - it must be a good 150deg lower than what is happening in the cylinders. I guess that if it breaks, at least you've saved your turbo.
Do you have a AFR as well - if so where roughly?
Do you have a AFR as well - if so where roughly?
once this part of my map is mapped in,, once my egr gets too a level it wil start to add a little more fuel in, to try and cool
i will log the egt next time im out and about,, and see what i am getting,, i got a feeling of 850 in my head,, but not sure,,
as for AFR, i got two wideband gauges,, one of which is a inlet too my ecy, and the other a handheld unit,
i think this drawing shows what you should be after:
i run richer than 12.6:1 at high revs/loads though
26-01-2005, 09:55 AM
#83
Professional Waffler
Originally Posted by turbodisplay
The resistor is what provides the calibration, hence the variation!
Personally i would pay £60 for a sensor that has been calibrated by bosch, rather £500 quid for a sensor that has been calibrated by bosch then calibrated again to improve accuracy by a just few percent! Just my opinion though!
I will dyno test these sensors sometime soon and see what the results are, actions and hard data is much better than speculation!
Cheers
Darren
Personally i would pay £60 for a sensor that has been calibrated by bosch, rather £500 quid for a sensor that has been calibrated by bosch then calibrated again to improve accuracy by a just few percent! Just my opinion though!
I will dyno test these sensors sometime soon and see what the results are, actions and hard data is much better than speculation!
Cheers
Darren
26-01-2005, 10:10 AM
#85
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For mapping yes £500 quid no problem. For day to day use where the £500 pound senor will no longer have the same calibration after 1000 to 2000 hours of driving it is a different story! Not many people can justify that running cost!
Darren
Darren
26-01-2005, 10:34 AM
#86
turbodisplay,
The resistor is what provides the calibration, hence the variation!
Personally i would pay £60 for a sensor that has been calibrated by bosch, rather £500 quid for a sensor that has been calibrated by bosch then calibrated again to improve accuracy by a just few percent! Just my opinion though!
I will dyno test these sensors sometime soon and see what the results are, actions and hard data is much better than speculation!
The resistor is what provides the calibration, hence the variation!
Personally i would pay £60 for a sensor that has been calibrated by bosch, rather £500 quid for a sensor that has been calibrated by bosch then calibrated again to improve accuracy by a just few percent! Just my opinion though!
I will dyno test these sensors sometime soon and see what the results are, actions and hard data is much better than speculation!
26-01-2005, 10:46 AM
#87
Testing the future
Originally Posted by Gareth T
i will log the egt next time im out and about,, and see what i am getting,, i got a feeling of 850 in my head,, but not sure,,
26-01-2005, 10:59 AM
#88
Professional Waffler
Originally Posted by foreigneRS
Originally Posted by Gareth T
i will log the egt next time im out and about,, and see what i am getting,, i got a feeling of 850 in my head,, but not sure,,
26-01-2005, 11:44 AM
#90
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Quick offtopic Q -
Whats the thread of the original Cossie housing lambda? The one you made your adaptor for Gareth?
Pistons melt at about 940deg C. What is a safe margin on that Stu?
Whats the thread of the original Cossie housing lambda? The one you made your adaptor for Gareth?
Pistons melt at about 940deg C. What is a safe margin on that Stu?
26-01-2005, 11:45 AM
#91
Nearly finished chaps, largely thanks to Simon at SECS saving me an hours worth of wiring by quickly giving me some colours to wire it into a SECS monitor. top man
I will take her for a run and then try out the datalogging some time today all being well. I must say, the hardware, wiring, plugs etc are all 100% top quality.. very good start IMO
I will take her for a run and then try out the datalogging some time today all being well. I must say, the hardware, wiring, plugs etc are all 100% top quality.. very good start IMO
26-01-2005, 11:48 AM
#92
Professional Waffler
Whats the thread of the original Cossie housing lambda? The one you made your adaptor for Gareth?
26-01-2005, 02:55 PM
#93
Ok.. Update time:
Havent had time to check ultimate accuracy and have just checked it against my main workshop unit and its damn good indeed.
Response time is more than good enough and can even be adjusted in the software to damp out fluctuations etc
A few pics...
Unit Installed:
Datalogger activation switch installed:
USB datacable for laptop.
General logging software active and running. It will display any 0-5v sensor you want and is fully software configurable, so ive chosen boost pressure and TPS as the 2 most usefull for datalogging.
Smoothing and hardware screen:
Warning light options screen:
Warning light active:
Overall, its better packaged and thought out than any unit iver ever seen to date...
Havent had time to check ultimate accuracy and have just checked it against my main workshop unit and its damn good indeed.
Response time is more than good enough and can even be adjusted in the software to damp out fluctuations etc
A few pics...
Unit Installed:
Datalogger activation switch installed:
USB datacable for laptop.
General logging software active and running. It will display any 0-5v sensor you want and is fully software configurable, so ive chosen boost pressure and TPS as the 2 most usefull for datalogging.
Smoothing and hardware screen:
Warning light options screen:
Warning light active:
Overall, its better packaged and thought out than any unit iver ever seen to date...
26-01-2005, 03:20 PM
#95
Testing the future
does look very good, particularly on the software side. many other wb controllers are very diy and leave all of that to the buyer which is not to everyones requirements.
many other wb controllers are very diy and leave all of that to the buyer which is not to everyones requirements.
26-01-2005, 05:00 PM
#97
I agree, and this is one of the things that drew me towards it over its competition, as well as the fact that Dynojet Inc is a huge and well respected company who will have decent quality control
Here is a Datalog of my car on in 3rd gear from 2500rpm to 6500rpm taken directly from this AFR unit:
I used 2500rpm as a starting point for the pics as theres loads of pics of it at 14.7:1 under lambda control till the boost comes in that are pretty accademic on this topic..lol
It displays pretty usefull info even as just an occasional check whilst thrashing her up the local runway in my opinion...
Here is a Datalog of my car on in 3rd gear from 2500rpm to 6500rpm taken directly from this AFR unit:
I used 2500rpm as a starting point for the pics as theres loads of pics of it at 14.7:1 under lambda control till the boost comes in that are pretty accademic on this topic..lol
It displays pretty usefull info even as just an occasional check whilst thrashing her up the local runway in my opinion...
26-01-2005, 05:16 PM
#99
Originally Posted by leecavturbo
Stu have you got a firm price yet for it?
and can the wideband be corrected to be fed to autronic ?
and can the wideband be corrected to be fed to autronic ?
boXXer,
looks excellent. How much do you think its all gunna be then?
looks excellent. How much do you think its all gunna be then?
26-01-2005, 06:05 PM
#102
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Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Theres a lot of speculation here about Bosch wideband sensors, so lets have a few facts and clear up some of the bollox shall we:
The temperature of the sensor itself should be kept at a nominal 750Deg C by its heater alone. The Bosch LSU range are designed to operate up to 850 degrees accurately with a slight overheat to 930°C being acceptable. Bosch say, and i actually quote:
"If the operating temperature is exceeded (within the max. temperature
limits) for more then 10 minutes without break, the sensor function might
be affected during this time."
So we can run 850degC for up to 10mins without a break with no real loss of accuracy. How many of you could ever possibly achieve that?
On the subject of heat, do you realise a wideband sensor measures the temperature and automatically compensates for the difference to keep its output accurate? A decent controller runs the heater in a closed loop condition so that if the temperature starts to exceed 750 degrees the heater is disabled. 750 degrees tends to equate to an internal element resistance of around 80ohms. This is how the temperature is measured.
How about the fact it uses ambient air to calibrate itself? Did you know that the exterior should be kept clean for this reason?
The life expectancy depends a lot on temperature and chemical composition but expect an average life of 1600hours in a road car.
And to finalise the silly debate about instalation area: And again i quote Bosch themselves:
"Locate sensor as close to the engine as possible, respecting max.
allowed temperature range
- Attempt to achieve rapid heating-up of the exhaust pipes in the area in
front of the sensor.
-A downwards slope of the pipe is recommended."
Finally, whilst pressure is an issue, it has a very small effect indeed on the output, on the richer side due to pressurised air containung more oxygen and fuel molecules. I have Bosch's scale somewhere if your worried, but id worry more about why you have large pressure in your exhaust system to be honest
Now i hope that clears up the debate about sensors.
The temperature of the sensor itself should be kept at a nominal 750Deg C by its heater alone. The Bosch LSU range are designed to operate up to 850 degrees accurately with a slight overheat to 930°C being acceptable. Bosch say, and i actually quote:
"If the operating temperature is exceeded (within the max. temperature
limits) for more then 10 minutes without break, the sensor function might
be affected during this time."
So we can run 850degC for up to 10mins without a break with no real loss of accuracy. How many of you could ever possibly achieve that?
On the subject of heat, do you realise a wideband sensor measures the temperature and automatically compensates for the difference to keep its output accurate? A decent controller runs the heater in a closed loop condition so that if the temperature starts to exceed 750 degrees the heater is disabled. 750 degrees tends to equate to an internal element resistance of around 80ohms. This is how the temperature is measured.
How about the fact it uses ambient air to calibrate itself? Did you know that the exterior should be kept clean for this reason?
The life expectancy depends a lot on temperature and chemical composition but expect an average life of 1600hours in a road car.
And to finalise the silly debate about instalation area: And again i quote Bosch themselves:
"Locate sensor as close to the engine as possible, respecting max.
allowed temperature range
- Attempt to achieve rapid heating-up of the exhaust pipes in the area in
front of the sensor.
-A downwards slope of the pipe is recommended."
Finally, whilst pressure is an issue, it has a very small effect indeed on the output, on the richer side due to pressurised air containung more oxygen and fuel molecules. I have Bosch's scale somewhere if your worried, but id worry more about why you have large pressure in your exhaust system to be honest
Now i hope that clears up the debate about sensors.
27-01-2005, 10:31 PM
#104
Just got in after a long day with Jon doing a feature, will complete it tomorrow including back to back analasis of the unit against my own benchmark
Remember, build quality and software/datalogger are ALL second to accuracy
Remember, build quality and software/datalogger are ALL second to accuracy
28-01-2005, 04:26 PM
#105
Ok,
Finished some back to back testing and the product does pretty ok indeed...
Laboratory Standard unit against dynoJet test unit.
Lab unit = 16.0:1
Test unit = 15.8:1
Lab unit = 14.7:1
Test unit = 14.7:1
Lab unit = 13.0:1
Test unit = 13.2:1
Lab unit = 12.5:1
Test unit = 12.8:1
Lab unit = 11.5:1
Test unit = 12.0:1
Now that is as accurate as your going to get for whats intended to be a domestic in car mounted unit IMO. Top marks indeed.
Finished some back to back testing and the product does pretty ok indeed...
Laboratory Standard unit against dynoJet test unit.
Lab unit = 16.0:1
Test unit = 15.8:1
Lab unit = 14.7:1
Test unit = 14.7:1
Lab unit = 13.0:1
Test unit = 13.2:1
Lab unit = 12.5:1
Test unit = 12.8:1
Lab unit = 11.5:1
Test unit = 12.0:1
Now that is as accurate as your going to get for whats intended to be a domestic in car mounted unit IMO. Top marks indeed.
28-01-2005, 04:42 PM
#106
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
I've been following the thread with interest. Good to see the results
Just out of interest, have you done any similar tests with the Zoo one at all?
Just out of interest, have you done any similar tests with the Zoo one at all?
...incidentally how accurate is my motec gold box AFR Stu in your opinion?
28-01-2005, 05:58 PM
#109
Renton,
Just out of interest, have you done any similar tests with the Zoo one at all?
Just out of interest, have you done any similar tests with the Zoo one at all?
Bosch Man,
incidentally how accurate is my motec gold box AFR Stu in your opinion?
incidentally how accurate is my motec gold box AFR Stu in your opinion?
for anyone who may have been following the topic last week
03-02-2005, 01:14 PM
#115
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i have just read the whole post and i can honestly say i havnt got a fookin clue what its all about 
although i think i will probably buy one as it looks kool with the blue l,e,d
have you given anymore thought as to what it will cost to fit it onto say a 500 bhp saff cos ?
although i think i will probably buy one as it looks kool with the blue l,e,d have you given anymore thought as to what it will cost to fit it onto say a 500 bhp saff cos ?
03-02-2005, 02:08 PM
#117
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Originally Posted by foreigneRS
if it has a simulated 0 -1V output which i expect that it does, then yes
so .. are you gonna order this lambda kit ?
13-02-2005, 06:14 PM
#119
Testing the future
Originally Posted by turbinator
right... you have ordered SECS as well right ?
so .. are you gonna order this lambda kit ?
so .. are you gonna order this lambda kit ?
no, i've got a techedge 2bo.