New Wideband AFR kit on test....
24-01-2005, 04:42 PM
#42
Bosch Man,
Remember folk the closer to the turbo the richer you will see...another reason to use my method as it shows leaner than it is!
Remember folk the closer to the turbo the richer you will see...another reason to use my method as it shows leaner than it is!
Std 0 - 1v sensors are very badly affected by heat... not the 0-5v compensated ones. Excessive heat is to be avoided as is dirty combustion, thats why we use sensor shields too.
24-01-2005, 04:50 PM
#44
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Stu.....they fit them there as std (YB) cause they are a 204bhp engine plus as you say they couldnt put it 2ft away...a little different to what most YB's are pumping out
Yes they have pre heaters....so my method up the tail pipe on a tube is giving the maximum life from the sensor plus a leaner figure..better for a DIYer...
Yes they have pre heaters....so my method up the tail pipe on a tube is giving the maximum life from the sensor plus a leaner figure..better for a DIYer...
24-01-2005, 05:02 PM
#46
Originally Posted by Bosch Man
Stu.....they fit them there as std (YB) cause they are a 204bhp engine plus as you say they couldnt put it 2ft away...a little different to what most YB's are pumping out
Wankers.. and they charge so much too..
24-01-2005, 05:23 PM
#47
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But as you said Stu they DONT fit them THAT close to a turbo...2ft is optimum...so
for you for saying these manfacturers are clueless!
So basically you think that by putting a wideband lamda 2 cm away from the might of say a tepid T34 that the sensor would last when permanatly on when you use the car?
So McLaren, Ferrari etc are all just clueless knobs who should have paid BoschMans "coontsultancy" fee before tossing parts at their engine bays in a couldnt care less and rather unprofessional manner eh?
for you for saying these manfacturers are clueless! So basically you think that by putting a wideband lamda 2 cm away from the might of say a tepid T34 that the sensor would last when permanatly on when you use the car?
24-01-2005, 05:27 PM
#49
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My unbiased 2p worth.... 
There is no doubt that heat soak and fuel composition affects lambda sensors life and accuracy.
Any joint in the exhaust is a potential air leak that can influence the sensor readings.
It makes sense, the less joints the more accurate.
The nearer the sensor is to the exhaust ports, the more heat the less life - CATCH 22
Ultimately, any car manufacturer places the sensor in a position that is
an average of all the potential problems.
From my own experience the sensor during mapping a car should ALWAYS
be placed as near the exhaust ports as possible and on a turbo car this
is in the turbo itself or the downpipe as this is where all cylinders are
measured as an average across the whole engine.
This is the best place as it shows EXACTLY what is going on.
Modern sensors are able to withstand heat much better than old narrow band types.
However.......
At the end of the day, wether the car is turbo or not, the exhaust gas temperatures are
must be maintained at a level that stops the pistons melting.
Nearly all manufacturer place the sensors in the downpipe or exhaust manifold/turbo
or before the catalyst converter if used.
(a second sensor is fitted on SOME cat equipped cars - discussion for another day)
One reason for this, is it heats the sensor up quicker
(They need much heat to work correctly)
This allows the sensor to be used much sooner after the engine starts
and reduces fuel consumption and emmisions to keep the hippies happy.
There is no doubt that heat soak and fuel composition affects lambda sensors life and accuracy.
Any joint in the exhaust is a potential air leak that can influence the sensor readings.
It makes sense, the less joints the more accurate.
The nearer the sensor is to the exhaust ports, the more heat the less life - CATCH 22
Ultimately, any car manufacturer places the sensor in a position that is
an average of all the potential problems.
From my own experience the sensor during mapping a car should ALWAYS
be placed as near the exhaust ports as possible and on a turbo car this
is in the turbo itself or the downpipe as this is where all cylinders are
measured as an average across the whole engine.
This is the best place as it shows EXACTLY what is going on.
Modern sensors are able to withstand heat much better than old narrow band types.
However.......
At the end of the day, wether the car is turbo or not, the exhaust gas temperatures are
must be maintained at a level that stops the pistons melting.
Nearly all manufacturer place the sensors in the downpipe or exhaust manifold/turbo
or before the catalyst converter if used.
(a second sensor is fitted on SOME cat equipped cars - discussion for another day)
One reason for this, is it heats the sensor up quicker
(They need much heat to work correctly)
This allows the sensor to be used much sooner after the engine starts
and reduces fuel consumption and emmisions to keep the hippies happy.
24-01-2005, 05:28 PM
#50
It was, as you well know, in response to this bollox from you:
No one mentioned 2cm for starters Phil.
And theres a lot of cars out there with wideband as STANDARD Phil. Even the fooking standard ones last well in the turbine housing as the EGT's are NOT very often above 600deg, and these are the leats reliable of all. Heat is an issue, but so is cold, for that matter so is fuel composition and even fuel type. Do you know how to cal your unit for methanol use? I expect not, as you dont know what your talking about..rolfol. Come back and argue when youve worked on one or two more cars than your own shoddy old Ford Sierra's and have seen a few other ideas in use around the world other than what Ford did almost 20yrs ago . 
Bosch Man,
so my method up the tail pipe on a tube is giving the maximum life from the sensor plus a leaner figure..better for a DIYer...
so my method up the tail pipe on a tube is giving the maximum life from the sensor plus a leaner figure..better for a DIYer...
Bosch Man,
So basically you think that by putting a wideband lamda 2 cm away from the might of say a tepid T34 that the sensor would last when permanatly on when you use the car?
So basically you think that by putting a wideband lamda 2 cm away from the might of say a tepid T34 that the sensor would last when permanatly on when you use the car?
And theres a lot of cars out there with wideband as STANDARD Phil. Even the fooking standard ones last well in the turbine housing as the EGT's are NOT very often above 600deg, and these are the leats reliable of all. Heat is an issue, but so is cold, for that matter so is fuel composition and even fuel type. Do you know how to cal your unit for methanol use? I expect not, as you dont know what your talking about..rolfol. Come back and argue when youve worked on one or two more cars than your own shoddy old Ford Sierra's and have seen a few other ideas in use around the world other than what Ford did almost 20yrs ago .
24-01-2005, 05:35 PM
#51
SECS,
At the end of the day, wether the car is turbo or not, the exhaust gas temperatures are
must be maintained at a level that stops the pistons melting.
At the end of the day, wether the car is turbo or not, the exhaust gas temperatures are
must be maintained at a level that stops the pistons melting.
24-01-2005, 05:42 PM
#52
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But that quote was correct Stu....surely my lamda will last longer in the tail pipe!!!Plus may run leaner figures...particualary off boost.
I talking purely modified YB's..not other STANDARD manufacturer cars.
Take the piss all you like...as you got the bits of paper to show your clever...i got nothing and still get on well for a bloke who knows shit all LOL.
I talking purely modified YB's..not other STANDARD manufacturer cars.
Take the piss all you like...as you got the bits of paper to show your clever...i got nothing and still get on well for a bloke who knows shit all
LOL.
24-01-2005, 05:47 PM
#53
Bosch Man,
Plus may run leaner figures...particualary off boost.
Plus may run leaner figures...particualary off boost.
Bosch Man,
get on well for a bloke who knows shit all LOL.
get on well for a bloke who knows shit all LOL.
I find it highly surprising at times
Did you find that tune i recommended?
24-01-2005, 06:06 PM
#54
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Su..i have no complaints doin it like that...when i mean inaccurate i mean at tickover and its windy it fluctuates....but on driving and on boost hard driving it must be ok as it aint blown an engine yet!.......I dont know where is most accurate but it must vary from where you install it otherwise youd mount it in the middle of the exhaust as surely that would give the sensor the longest life....its you Su thats saying close to turbo is best for accuracy...if my method is inaccurate it must be on the leaner side so thats better than 2 rich for a dimwit diy mapper like myself
24-01-2005, 08:19 PM
#56
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Stu exactly...i only do it myself so i dont care...i do understand the importance of accuracy to people like yourselves though.obviously!!!!!
I love that song....and will be playing it tommorrow as i fiddle with the lap top and my cock over Gwen
I love that song....and will be playing it tommorrow as i fiddle with the lap top and my cock over Gwen
25-01-2005, 12:00 AM
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Doesn't a wide band Lambda probe have to be actually hotter than the gas it is measuring to be accurate????
I would concur that the best place on a highly tuned cossie would be as far down the down pipe before the first joint as posible. Of course this isn't always a practical proposition.
Sean..
I would concur that the best place on a highly tuned cossie would be as far down the down pipe before the first joint as posible. Of course this isn't always a practical proposition.
Sean..
25-01-2005, 09:13 AM
#61
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Dunno if its been said before or not but the positioning of the sensor depends on what exhaust system you got. If you have no cats then you can hook it up at the end of the tailpipe but if you run catalytic converters it must be placed prior to these.
25-01-2005, 09:51 AM
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I have a crazy plan to sort this out:
Put one lambda sensor just after the turbo, one futher down the pipe. Whichever position is better will be obvious!
I personally believe that as long as the exhaust gases are below the lamda sensor temp it is ok.
I have heard of people who use the tail pipe to take reading sucessfully. I think futher down from the turbo is better, as the exhaust gasses from the turbine housing will be turbulent, causing an error in the reading. So i agree with boschman.
Darren
Put one lambda sensor just after the turbo, one futher down the pipe. Whichever position is better will be obvious!
I personally believe that as long as the exhaust gases are below the lamda sensor temp it is ok.
I have heard of people who use the tail pipe to take reading sucessfully. I think futher down from the turbo is better, as the exhaust gasses from the turbine housing will be turbulent, causing an error in the reading. So i agree with boschman.
Darren
25-01-2005, 03:45 PM
#65
Testing the future
as the exhaust gasses from the turbine housing will be turbulent
what does that matter anyway? you're not trying to measure a pressure or a mass flow or anything.
25-01-2005, 04:19 PM
#66
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Some Cossie exhaust housings have a threading for a lambda sensor - It's a different thread to a Bosch sensor though - can you get a wideband to fit this thread?
If not would it be OK to drill this out and thread it for a Bosch wideband? How long would a sensor last sitting 2cm from the turbine? And what happens when they break, do they just read richer and richer, or no reading at all?
If not would it be OK to drill this out and thread it for a Bosch wideband? How long would a sensor last sitting 2cm from the turbine? And what happens when they break, do they just read richer and richer, or no reading at all?
25-01-2005, 06:34 PM
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There is a concern regarding pressure, as the senor is a complex feedback mechanism that has an oxygen pump to bring the nerst cell into a stioch condition. Any positive or negitive pressure will upset the calibration.
Regarding the tailpipe, i`m not talking about just bunging it there, a long tube is inserted, to essure a constant flow of exhaust gasses over the sensor.
The wideband sensor is an M18 * 1.5mm tread, standard bosch size.
I`ve almost finished my wideband controller, i`ll post the results!
When the sensor breaks it depends on the type of feedback mechanism what signal is given.
Thanks
Darren
Regarding the tailpipe, i`m not talking about just bunging it there, a long tube is inserted, to essure a constant flow of exhaust gasses over the sensor.
The wideband sensor is an M18 * 1.5mm tread, standard bosch size.
I`ve almost finished my wideband controller, i`ll post the results!
When the sensor breaks it depends on the type of feedback mechanism what signal is given.
Thanks
Darren
25-01-2005, 07:44 PM
#68
Theres a lot of speculation here about Bosch wideband sensors, so lets have a few facts and clear up some of the bollox shall we:
The temperature of the sensor itself should be kept at a nominal 750Deg C by its heater alone. The Bosch LSU range are designed to operate up to 850 degrees accurately with a slight overheat to 930°C being acceptable. Bosch say, and i actually quote:
"If the operating temperature is exceeded (within the max. temperature
limits) for more then 10 minutes without break, the sensor function might
be affected during this time."
So we can run 850degC for up to 10mins without a break with no real loss of accuracy. How many of you could ever possibly achieve that?
On the subject of heat, do you realise a wideband sensor measures the temperature and automatically compensates for the difference to keep its output accurate? A decent controller runs the heater in a closed loop condition so that if the temperature starts to exceed 750 degrees the heater is disabled. 750 degrees tends to equate to an internal element resistance of around 80ohms. This is how the temperature is measured.
How about the fact it uses ambient air to calibrate itself? Did you know that the exterior should be kept clean for this reason?
The life expectancy depends a lot on temperature and chemical composition but expect an average life of 1600hours in a road car.
And to finalise the silly debate about instalation area: And again i quote Bosch themselves:
"Locate sensor as close to the engine as possible, respecting max.
allowed temperature range
- Attempt to achieve rapid heating-up of the exhaust pipes in the area in
front of the sensor.
-A downwards slope of the pipe is recommended."
Finally, whilst pressure is an issue, it has a very small effect indeed on the output, on the richer side due to pressurised air containung more oxygen and fuel molecules. I have Bosch's scale somewhere if your worried, but id worry more about why you have large pressure in your exhaust system to be honest
Now i hope that clears up the debate about sensors. 
The temperature of the sensor itself should be kept at a nominal 750Deg C by its heater alone. The Bosch LSU range are designed to operate up to 850 degrees accurately with a slight overheat to 930°C being acceptable. Bosch say, and i actually quote:
"If the operating temperature is exceeded (within the max. temperature
limits) for more then 10 minutes without break, the sensor function might
be affected during this time."
So we can run 850degC for up to 10mins without a break with no real loss of accuracy. How many of you could ever possibly achieve that?
On the subject of heat, do you realise a wideband sensor measures the temperature and automatically compensates for the difference to keep its output accurate? A decent controller runs the heater in a closed loop condition so that if the temperature starts to exceed 750 degrees the heater is disabled. 750 degrees tends to equate to an internal element resistance of around 80ohms. This is how the temperature is measured.
How about the fact it uses ambient air to calibrate itself? Did you know that the exterior should be kept clean for this reason?
The life expectancy depends a lot on temperature and chemical composition but expect an average life of 1600hours in a road car.
And to finalise the silly debate about instalation area: And again i quote Bosch themselves:
"Locate sensor as close to the engine as possible, respecting max.
allowed temperature range
- Attempt to achieve rapid heating-up of the exhaust pipes in the area in
front of the sensor.
-A downwards slope of the pipe is recommended."
Finally, whilst pressure is an issue, it has a very small effect indeed on the output, on the richer side due to pressurised air containung more oxygen and fuel molecules. I have Bosch's scale somewhere if your worried, but id worry more about why you have large pressure in your exhaust system to be honest
Now i hope that clears up the debate about sensors.
25-01-2005, 08:29 PM
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just a pick me up for stu (if he wants it ) all your time spent here may not been earning you cash now but, i now want to use your services, because of your informative approach and knowledge ,so that should apply to many ppl too!
25-01-2005, 08:29 PM
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The best part about bosch is that they have a laser trimed resistor to do away with free air calibration. Ive sold most of mine but i measured the two i have left, one was 111 ohms the other 95. Shows that there is quite a variation between sensors!
For me it will be an issue with placement of the sensor, I`m going to run a cosworth v6 engine on a twin sequential setup - my primary turbo will be a ihi rb4 turbo from an uno turbo! Should spool in a split second!!!
Darren
For me it will be an issue with placement of the sensor, I`m going to run a cosworth v6 engine on a twin sequential setup - my primary turbo will be a ihi rb4 turbo from an uno turbo! Should spool in a split second!!!
Darren
25-01-2005, 09:38 PM
#76
Professional Waffler
Some Cossie exhaust housings have a threading for a lambda sensor - It's a different thread to a Bosch sensor though - can you get a wideband to fit this thread?
25-01-2005, 09:46 PM
#77
boXXer,
when you say digital, do you mean something like this.....
when you say digital, do you mean something like this.....
By digital, people mean they would prefer a readout similar to my own test equip, IE:
The narrowband ones were recently discussed in slightly more detail here:
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1394654
turbodisplay,
The best part about bosch is that they have a laser trimed resistor to do away with free air calibration. Ive sold most of mine but i measured the two i have left, one was 111 ohms the other 95. Shows that there is quite a variation between sensors!
The best part about bosch is that they have a laser trimed resistor to do away with free air calibration. Ive sold most of mine but i measured the two i have left, one was 111 ohms the other 95. Shows that there is quite a variation between sensors!
Neil S,
So any idea of lead time on a digital front end Stu?
So any idea of lead time on a digital front end Stu?
leecavturbo,
Kind comments, thank you
26-01-2005, 09:43 AM
#80
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Gareth - what EGT's are you reading there - it must be a good 150deg lower than what is happening in the cylinders. I guess that if it breaks, at least you've saved your turbo.
Do you have a AFR as well - if so where roughly?
Do you have a AFR as well - if so where roughly?