Closed loop Question...
12-08-2004, 10:22 AM
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Closed loop Question...
Hi...
Was reading an ealier post and got me thinking...
What level of tune would you benefit going to a closed loop system...Whats involved in fitting it and how much does it cost....
Thks Malc
Was reading an ealier post and got me thinking...
What level of tune would you benefit going to a closed loop system...Whats involved in fitting it and how much does it cost....
Thks Malc
12-08-2004, 10:24 AM
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It can be fitted to any level of tune.
It can be set to switch off above cirtain RPM or Load points.
Cost i suppose depends on what car its going on and what harware you already have to run it.
Matt.
It can be set to switch off above cirtain RPM or Load points.
Cost i suppose depends on what car its going on and what harware you already have to run it.
Matt.
12-08-2004, 10:42 AM
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Hi Stu...
Don't know I assumed it was fuel...didn't even know the boost one existed
I have a Escort Cosworth big turbo , stage 3 tune and just wondered the benefits I would get???
Could you please explain what both closed loop fuel and boost are so i know if I am thinking along the right lines...(always dangerous thinking, just trying to understand it)
Thks for taking the time to answer....by the way Stu thanks for yesterdays advice re oil separators ,it turned up this morning ready for Monday...I know you don't benefit directly from your help on this one as i said on the phone which makes your help even more appreciated
Thks
Malc
Don't know I assumed it was fuel...didn't even know the boost one existed
I have a Escort Cosworth big turbo , stage 3 tune and just wondered the benefits I would get???
Could you please explain what both closed loop fuel and boost are so i know if I am thinking along the right lines...(always dangerous thinking, just trying to understand it)
Thks for taking the time to answer....by the way Stu thanks for yesterdays advice re oil separators ,it turned up this morning ready for Monday...I know you don't benefit directly from your help on this one as i said on the phone which makes your help even more appreciated
Thks
Malc
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12-08-2004, 10:50 AM
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Stu's always helping people out I think we should have a Stu apreciation thread (not like my nikteazer apreciation thread cos he aint as good looking) 
I think we should have a Stu apreciation thread (not like my nikteazer apreciation thread cos he aint as good looking)
12-08-2004, 10:57 AM
#10
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You should already have closed loop fuel (Lambda) - mine has. However, I have been told that some chips may have binned the function. What is your chip?
Closed loop boost will be looking at what boost you are making and adjusting the actuator to keep it at whatever you want, not like open loop where it will just be whatever it happens to be.
Closed loop boost will be looking at what boost you are making and adjusting the actuator to keep it at whatever you want, not like open loop where it will just be whatever it happens to be.
12-08-2004, 11:14 AM
#11
If Fuel..
Some light reading:
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54573
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=814248
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58883
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=66604
Hope these help, ive put all three as the fuelling side of closed loop operation was discussed partially in each topic......
Some light reading:
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=54573
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=814248
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=58883
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=66604
Hope these help, ive put all three as the fuelling side of closed loop operation was discussed partially in each topic......
12-08-2004, 11:49 AM
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Hi Stu..
Tks for the links..a few questions more specific to my car (large turbo escort cos)
1- How much to fit closed loop fueling fitted and setup/mapped...
2- What about closed boost control..is it easier to use a greedy type boost controller / or air injectors (if they are closed loop)
After reading all the posts my head is spinning but it seems the way to go...that way u know the fuel and boost you have got...seems crazy to just put the fuel in and hope the boost is ok..although i though the map sensor controlled fueling
now I am confused....anylight would be very welcome...
I suppose what i am asking is what is the best boost/fueling setup i can have for my car and how much is it going to cost me......
Thks Malc
Tks for the links..a few questions more specific to my car (large turbo escort cos)
1- How much to fit closed loop fueling fitted and setup/mapped...
2- What about closed boost control..is it easier to use a greedy type boost controller / or air injectors (if they are closed loop)
After reading all the posts my head is spinning but it seems the way to go...that way u know the fuel and boost you have got...seems crazy to just put the fuel in and hope the boost is ok..although i though the map sensor controlled fueling
now I am confused....anylight would be very welcome...I suppose what i am asking is what is the best boost/fueling setup i can have for my car and how much is it going to cost me......
Thks Malc
12-08-2004, 12:14 PM
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Hi Stu..
"This needs an essay type reply as you appear to be slightly awry with your understanding of the control methods... "
Most definately....just trying to understand now....
Look fwd to my homework
Thks again Malc
"This needs an essay type reply as you appear to be slightly awry with your understanding of the control methods... "
Most definately....just trying to understand now....
Look fwd to my homework
Thks again Malc
12-08-2004, 02:03 PM
#16
Briefly... (Please let me know if its too brief)
The Map sensor DOES tell the ecu how much air the engine is using and where to look for fuel in the map. If the map says "open inj for 2ms" thats what it will do, even if that means lean runnning or borewash. The map based system does not change, but what will change is the fuel that is actually delivered. This is because a 4th dimension is used to process the delivery of fuel.
This 4th dimension is the lambda sensors input to the ecu to tell the ecu how much fuel is being used via exhaust gas monitoring. What this means in a nutshell is instead of the map sensor saying:
"We have 1psi add the fuel from the 1psi part of the map"
We now have an ecu that will add the fuel from the 1psi part of the map and then refine it constantly by looking at teh emissions, if its rich ir will reduce injector duration itself, its its lean it will increase injector duration, and it will do this constantly, ensuring the fuelling stays stoichiometrically correct. This constant monitoring and adjustment is called "Closed loop lambda control"
This system came into operation worldwide in 1992 with the introduction of catalysts to mainstream production cars. The catalyst requires the fuel mixture to be chemically correct at 14.7:1 AFR so it doesnt get poisoned and this is why the lambda sensor and closed loop operation was devised for household consumption. We have simply refined this system for use with far larger injectors than originally intended by Ford or Marelli and then retrofitted the system into cars that were never equipped with it.
Il copy and paste some of my operating instructions into here now that i give to customers after purchase of teh system so you understand when it is locked to closed loop operation:
The Evolution software in your ecu is closed loop lambda enabled for ideal stoichiometry under all level and light throttle conditions. If the following parameters are met or exceeded, the ecu will revert to conventional mapping at all times.
1) Rapid throttle movements.
2) Throttle angle above 60%
3) Overun conditions
4) Boost pressure above 4psi
5) Engine speed above 4000rpm
6) Coolant temperature below 70deg C.
At all other times the fuelling will be under complete lambda control for best emissions and fuel economy. Please bear this in mind to get the best from your new engine control software.
So as you can see above, once your running hard, you are under 100% conventional mapping techniques and control methods which has no bearing on the lambda control side of things at all.
All we have done in a nutshell is brought the old fashioned cosworth fuel system into line with more modern equivalents. Welcome to 2004 guys.
As for Costs.
Standard mapping cost for a YB is Ł500
Lambda software is Ł100 extra.
On top of this you need a decent quality lambda sensor installed to supply my software with your signal and the heater system wired into the fuel circuit. This can be done yourself or by us.
Closed loop boost control is a definate essay and il maybe do that later...
The Map sensor DOES tell the ecu how much air the engine is using and where to look for fuel in the map. If the map says "open inj for 2ms" thats what it will do, even if that means lean runnning or borewash. The map based system does not change, but what will change is the fuel that is actually delivered. This is because a 4th dimension is used to process the delivery of fuel.
This 4th dimension is the lambda sensors input to the ecu to tell the ecu how much fuel is being used via exhaust gas monitoring. What this means in a nutshell is instead of the map sensor saying:
"We have 1psi add the fuel from the 1psi part of the map"
We now have an ecu that will add the fuel from the 1psi part of the map and then refine it constantly by looking at teh emissions, if its rich ir will reduce injector duration itself, its its lean it will increase injector duration, and it will do this constantly, ensuring the fuelling stays stoichiometrically correct. This constant monitoring and adjustment is called "Closed loop lambda control"
This system came into operation worldwide in 1992 with the introduction of catalysts to mainstream production cars. The catalyst requires the fuel mixture to be chemically correct at 14.7:1 AFR so it doesnt get poisoned and this is why the lambda sensor and closed loop operation was devised for household consumption. We have simply refined this system for use with far larger injectors than originally intended by Ford or Marelli and then retrofitted the system into cars that were never equipped with it.
Il copy and paste some of my operating instructions into here now that i give to customers after purchase of teh system so you understand when it is locked to closed loop operation:
The Evolution software in your ecu is closed loop lambda enabled for ideal stoichiometry under all level and light throttle conditions. If the following parameters are met or exceeded, the ecu will revert to conventional mapping at all times.
1) Rapid throttle movements.
2) Throttle angle above 60%
3) Overun conditions
4) Boost pressure above 4psi
5) Engine speed above 4000rpm
6) Coolant temperature below 70deg C.
At all other times the fuelling will be under complete lambda control for best emissions and fuel economy. Please bear this in mind to get the best from your new engine control software.
So as you can see above, once your running hard, you are under 100% conventional mapping techniques and control methods which has no bearing on the lambda control side of things at all.
All we have done in a nutshell is brought the old fashioned cosworth fuel system into line with more modern equivalents. Welcome to 2004 guys.
As for Costs.
Standard mapping cost for a YB is Ł500
Lambda software is Ł100 extra.
On top of this you need a decent quality lambda sensor installed to supply my software with your signal and the heater system wired into the fuel circuit. This can be done yourself or by us.
Closed loop boost control is a definate essay and il maybe do that later...
12-08-2004, 02:20 PM
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Thanks very much that makes complete sense
Now I am going to get infront of myself and make a bold statement....
Is closed loop boost control effectively what the GREDDY PROFEC B-SPEC 2 II BOOST CONTROLLER does
Thks again..service above and beyond the call of duty...
Malc
12-08-2004, 02:45 PM
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Stu..
Thanks it all makes sense now....So closed loop fueling fitted a live map and a boost controller should see more reliable boost control, better fuel consumption and MORE power!!!!!! So you can have ur cake and it eat
Thks again Malc
Thanks it all makes sense now....So closed loop fueling fitted a live map and a boost controller should see more reliable boost control, better fuel consumption and MORE power!!!!!! So you can have ur cake and it eat
Thks again Malc
12-08-2004, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
On top of this you need a decent quality lambda sensor installed to supply my software with your signal and the heater system wired into the fuel circuit. This can be done yourself or by us.
Neil.
12-08-2004, 03:00 PM
#26
Testing the future
a lambda sensor needs to be up to temperature to work. if it's close to the exhaust it may get hot enough anyway, but it may take some time.
some lambda sensors have a built in electrical heater so that they can reach operating temperature quickly and / or can be placed more conveniently in the downpipe, and also after the cat in modern cars.
you can wire the heater up using the fuel pump relay so that it's only on when it needs to be.
hth
some lambda sensors have a built in electrical heater so that they can reach operating temperature quickly and / or can be placed more conveniently in the downpipe, and also after the cat in modern cars.
you can wire the heater up using the fuel pump relay so that it's only on when it needs to be.
hth
12-08-2004, 03:01 PM
#27
Originally Posted by Neil S
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
On top of this you need a decent quality lambda sensor installed to supply my software with your signal and the heater system wired into the fuel circuit. This can be done yourself or by us.
Neil.
All good lambda sensors have an internal heater fitted to ensure the tip is at correct minimum operating temperature at all times.
This should be wired to the fuel pump operating circuit so the current hungry heater circuit is only active when the fuel pump is active for both ease of operation and sensor tip life.
The output from the sensor is then also fitted with a marelli terminal into the ecu multiplug for OE performance and reliability of course.
I hope this clarifies.
12-08-2004, 05:10 PM
#32
Theres an update here from the currently active link above that may be of interest to anyone watching the Lambda progress with interest:
That is pretty fooking impressive!!
How many miles was it exactly on the way back BTW Rob?
217 miles Ian.
So i calculate that like this:
Ł26.80 buys you 30.112 litres of Shell Optimax fuel at 0.89p per litre.
That means you travelled an average of 7.206miles for every litre of fuel used.
Multiply that 7.206 miles x 4.546 (litres in a Uk gallon) and that gives us an accurate calculation of how far you travelled for every Uk gallon consumed:
32.76MPG overall
This is on a pretty damn un fuel efficient T4 / Greys / low comp / ported head/ BD14 engine too!
Even im shocked at that!!
Have i fooked up the calculation somewhere?
Full topic here:
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=66761
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Originally Posted by Ian2wdsaffcos
That is pretty fooking impressive!!
How many miles was it exactly on the way back BTW Rob?
So i calculate that like this:
Ł26.80 buys you 30.112 litres of Shell Optimax fuel at 0.89p per litre.
That means you travelled an average of 7.206miles for every litre of fuel used.
Multiply that 7.206 miles x 4.546 (litres in a Uk gallon) and that gives us an accurate calculation of how far you travelled for every Uk gallon consumed:
32.76MPG overall
This is on a pretty damn un fuel efficient T4 / Greys / low comp / ported head/ BD14 engine too!
Even im shocked at that!!
Have i fooked up the calculation somewhere?
https://passionford.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=66761
12-08-2004, 05:37 PM
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Sounds like a great conversion, Is it possible to perform this on the level 6 ecu? What would be the cost for the whole convertion including lambda sensor intall etc?
Cheers
Cheers
12-08-2004, 05:44 PM
#34
A Bosch LSU narrowband fully installed and wired will cost approx Ł180 extra on top of the earlier figures.
Level 6 is currently not an option and i recomend L8 with the corresponding PF09 TPS. This ecu as you probably know is also better/more reliable and safer
Level 6 is currently not an option and i recomend L8 with the corresponding PF09 TPS. This ecu as you probably know is also better/more reliable and safer
12-08-2004, 07:34 PM
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So to summerise Costs stu:
Ł500 mapping
Ł100 for lambda bit
Ł180 for bosch lsu narrowband.
total approx: Ł780
sounds pretty good
If you are doinging a more conventional map on greys what kinda fuel economy would u be looking at? lets say same spec as Robs.
oh and why a narrow band?
Ł500 mapping
Ł100 for lambda bit
Ł180 for bosch lsu narrowband.
total approx: Ł780
sounds pretty good
If you are doinging a more conventional map on greys what kinda fuel economy would u be looking at? lets say same spec as Robs.
oh and why a narrow band?
12-08-2004, 07:43 PM
#38
Dont be sorry, it saves my fingers and gives folk the info faster pal
Unsure on greys economy with std mapping, certainly not as good as std injectors due to duration and transient fuel correction limitations but nothing like as terrible as many maps ive seen from some other sources that have given greys the "Borewash" label..
Please dont think this is just about fuel economy though... This software gives the cossie silky throttle response and driveability that in many ways is better than the std unmodified car. This is due to the afforemention duration and transient limitations being REMOVED by this more advanced control software.
talking of fuel economy, when i get back from shopping im going to dig out the std figures cos ive got the manual somewhere for my 93saff
Unsure on greys economy with std mapping, certainly not as good as std injectors due to duration and transient fuel correction limitations but nothing like as terrible as many maps ive seen from some other sources that have given greys the "Borewash" label..
Please dont think this is just about fuel economy though... This software gives the cossie silky throttle response and driveability that in many ways is better than the std unmodified car. This is due to the afforemention duration and transient limitations being REMOVED by this more advanced control software.
talking of fuel economy, when i get back from shopping im going to dig out the std figures cos ive got the manual somewhere for my 93saff
12-08-2004, 07:55 PM
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i mujst admit, it does all sounde very tempting Anyone got a level 8 ecu for sale??? I think i will be going to blackpool in the near future
Anyone got a level 8 ecu for sale??? I think i will be going to blackpool in the near future