BEEFY'S s1 cos- tues 1-5-2012 Project now for sale , breaking -
23-10-2011, 03:44 AM
#4122
The scrub line is the angle of the suspension travel in relation to the center line of the wheel, move the wheels by changing the offset out then you have positive scrub line, move them in then you have negative scrub line,
I the angle of suspension travel is not directly through the center line of the wheel then this can affect it in different ways, good and bad depending what you are using the car for, some production cars are set up to have negative scrub and some positive to aid things like bump steer or for lighter steering when parking etc
I the angle of suspension travel is not directly through the center line of the wheel then this can affect it in different ways, good and bad depending what you are using the car for, some production cars are set up to have negative scrub and some positive to aid things like bump steer or for lighter steering when parking etc
23-10-2011, 09:00 AM
#4125
hi no its not ,all these points angles are there for a reason ,alter one and it effects somthing else ,even down to pinion angle ,beef when you mounted cradle did you set car at ride height then mount cradle with diff in and set pinion angle relative to gearbox tail housing ,if i was building a cossy mk3 i would look at leaving sierra floor pan as is and stretching shell ,or moving wheel arches also leave floor pan sat at original ride height ie not lowering on coil over etc ,then lower shell over the floor at the height i want the shell to sit then weld it in then you keep all the original geometry of the cosworth ,or run all front uprights etc so i could bolt on different steering arms etc so i could get the right ackerman effect and scrub etc ,all you have to do is look how it effects a cosworth running wrong offset wheels or lowering the car it causes bump steer and alters roll centre etc ,so imagin how doing these coversions alters thngs with out compensating for them ,suspension geometry is a very complicated thing and takes a lot of understanding
thanks mark
thanks mark
23-10-2011, 09:54 AM
#4126
hi no its not ,all these points angles are there for a reason ,alter one and it effects somthing else ,even down to pinion angle ,beef when you mounted cradle did you set car at ride height then mount cradle with diff in and set pinion angle relative to gearbox tail housing ,if i was building a cossy mk3 i would look at leaving sierra floor pan as is and stretching shell ,or moving wheel arches also leave floor pan sat at original ride height ie not lowering on coil over etc ,then lower shell over the floor at the height i want the shell to sit then weld it in then you keep all the original geometry of the cosworth ,or run all front uprights etc so i could bolt on different steering arms etc so i could get the right ackerman effect and scrub etc ,all you have to do is look how it effects a cosworth running wrong offset wheels or lowering the car it causes bump steer and alters roll centre etc ,so imagin how doing these coversions alters thngs with out compensating for them ,suspension geometry is a very complicated thing and takes a lot of understanding
thanks mark
thanks mark
so .....
my only two options are ,
1 , scrap the shell and totally rebuild the car stretching the shell or leaving the entire cossie floor pan setup in ,
2. buy a set of your front alloy uprights and have you make me a set of steering arm plates up to suit ...
lol surely you know buy now mark i didnt set the cradle in relative to the pinion tail height / ride hight , i didt even have all the components here to mock up with ......
funny how all these snippets of factful information come out when the shells fabbed and painted pmsl !!!!
ohh well thanks for the useful help fellas ,
mays well scrap the old girl now Ź!!!!!
lol
Last edited by -beefy-; 23-10-2011 at 10:00 AM.
23-10-2011, 10:13 AM
#4127
so .....
My only two options are ,
1 , scrap the shell and totally rebuild the car stretching the shell or leaving the entire cossie floor pan setup in , no not at all just compensate for you alterations
2. Buy a set of your front alloy uprights and have you make me a set of steering arm plates up to suit ... No alter your standard ones
lol surely you know buy now mark i didnt set the cradle in relative to the pinion tail height / ride hight , i didt even have all the components here to mock up with ...... You didnt need anything other than engines box shell ,cradle and diff
funny how all these snippets of factful information come out when the shells fabbed and painted pmsl !!!! How many times did i tell you to dry build car before painting because of this and other mountings etc
ohh well thanks for the useful help fellas , you seem to have taken offence from my advice sorry,i will leave you to it mate
mays well scrap the old girl now Ź!!!!! lol
My only two options are ,
1 , scrap the shell and totally rebuild the car stretching the shell or leaving the entire cossie floor pan setup in , no not at all just compensate for you alterations
2. Buy a set of your front alloy uprights and have you make me a set of steering arm plates up to suit ... No alter your standard ones
lol surely you know buy now mark i didnt set the cradle in relative to the pinion tail height / ride hight , i didt even have all the components here to mock up with ...... You didnt need anything other than engines box shell ,cradle and diff
funny how all these snippets of factful information come out when the shells fabbed and painted pmsl !!!! How many times did i tell you to dry build car before painting because of this and other mountings etc
ohh well thanks for the useful help fellas , you seem to have taken offence from my advice sorry,i will leave you to it mate
mays well scrap the old girl now Ź!!!!!
lolthanks mark
23-10-2011, 10:24 AM
#4128
Regular Contributor
Nice to see you back beef.I no how hard it can be with kids mate take up lots of time and money.Just take your time and enjoy building it back up.looking forward to updates paul
23-10-2011, 12:12 PM
#4130
Good to see you back on the project mate, many more challenging things to overcome as said but the points Mark is making is where the like of Mark, Andrew and Karl are worlds apart,
Karl is a good fabricator and his work/welding/paint and ideas are great but he hasn't a clue about building a car and makin sure it is set up to work properly, like Andrew and Mark for example, when my car was built by Andrew everything was checked for the set up I was using, camber, castor toe,driveshaft plunge etc along with drive shaft angles and tca angles all with the wheels I was going to use and what ET etc
No offence to you as you are in the same boat as me as I know hardly anything about all this either
but Karl was quick to slate my car and say how he could build better and cheaper but he hasn't a clue just like I haven't, I agree he mad made a lovely job of your shell. No doubt about that but thats not enough, function over form! But you could end up with form over function if Your not careful and dont get the correct advice
Best to get all your parts together and ring Mark for advice and I'm sure you will sort any issues out without too much fuss with his help,
Look forward to seeing it progress
Karl is a good fabricator and his work/welding/paint and ideas are great but he hasn't a clue about building a car and makin sure it is set up to work properly, like Andrew and Mark for example, when my car was built by Andrew everything was checked for the set up I was using, camber, castor toe,driveshaft plunge etc along with drive shaft angles and tca angles all with the wheels I was going to use and what ET etc
No offence to you as you are in the same boat as me as I know hardly anything about all this either
but Karl was quick to slate my car and say how he could build better and cheaper but he hasn't a clue just like I haven't, I agree he mad made a lovely job of your shell. No doubt about that but thats not enough, function over form! But you could end up with form over function if Your not careful and dont get the correct adviceBest to get all your parts together and ring Mark for advice and I'm sure you will sort any issues out without too much fuss with his help,
Look forward to seeing it progress
23-10-2011, 06:53 PM
#4132
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
mark i didnt stretch my shell to match the sierra floor pan, its shortend 9" and everythings fine, or is it mainly to do with beefys rear cardle and rear suspension/tub set up
23-10-2011, 08:38 PM
#4136
Suspension geometry is a very very complex subject and should be left to people in the know. There are so many variables that getting something wrong by a few mm's can make a massive difference.
In all seriousness, go and buy a Ł20 book about motorsport suspension and it gets very very complex indeed!
In all seriousness, go and buy a Ł20 book about motorsport suspension and it gets very very complex indeed!
23-10-2011, 08:56 PM
#4139
thanks for all the comments folks ,
all i see i can do is to carry on with the build up and then have it asessed once its done , if theres clear issues ill find a way to resolve them then ,
mk i understand what your saying regards form over function ect ect , and i sense theres still a teeny weeny touch of sour grapes over what k said to you , but k was honest enough to pm you his thoughts , you decided to post them on your page ,
i know k has alot of respect for ag and i wouldnt compare the two at all , i think he was meerly trying to say to you that for the money he was expecting a higher level of form to match the fucntion the car has , the fit n finish was in a poor state before gaz worked his magic , k strives for perfection in what he sees and does and he just didnt see it in the car at the time ,
after all were all open to positive and negative critisism or we wouldnt post on a open discussion board and we all have our shares of ups n downs ,
your having teething probs with your own camber ang geo setup at the mo aint you bud ? .......... but as you wrote , nothing that cant be solved ,
its only metal lol !!
onwards and upwards i say
beef
all i see i can do is to carry on with the build up and then have it asessed once its done , if theres clear issues ill find a way to resolve them then ,
mk i understand what your saying regards form over function ect ect , and i sense theres still a teeny weeny touch of sour grapes over what k said to you , but k was honest enough to pm you his thoughts , you decided to post them on your page ,
i know k has alot of respect for ag and i wouldnt compare the two at all , i think he was meerly trying to say to you that for the money he was expecting a higher level of form to match the fucntion the car has , the fit n finish was in a poor state before gaz worked his magic , k strives for perfection in what he sees and does and he just didnt see it in the car at the time ,
after all were all open to positive and negative critisism or we wouldnt post on a open discussion board and we all have our shares of ups n downs ,
your having teething probs with your own camber ang geo setup at the mo aint you bud ? .......... but as you wrote , nothing that cant be solved ,
its only metal lol !!
onwards and upwards i say
beef
23-10-2011, 09:01 PM
#4140
so going on that comment , im better to set up the rear and adjust the front to suit ,
it does make me wonder how all the previosuly converted cars , rst's, fezzys , eve minis handle at all , considering most of them run unmodded front and rear cossie setups ???
i do agree with marks comment that it could be done better ,
everything could be done better with big budgets
beef
23-10-2011, 09:09 PM
#4145
it is beefy ,so are the front steering arms ,caused by shortening the wheel base they were designed for ,dont get me wrong the car will drive ,but it wont be as good as it could ,its like building your engine and it has a miss fire on one cylinder still drives and you could proberly leave it but its not as good as it could be ,at the end of the day mate its your car as long as your happy thats all that matters
mark
mark
23-10-2011, 09:14 PM
#4146
as said mark . no ill will against you or any comments fella ,
hopefully if i get them lengths for the tubes tomorrow we can mock up at that length and see how much we need to reduce it by then should help when we get to setting up the front
hopefully if i get them lengths for the tubes tomorrow we can mock up at that length and see how much we need to reduce it by then should help when we get to setting up the front
23-10-2011, 09:22 PM
#4147
K deffo got my goat with his comments I admit and his opinion is his own, but I stand by my opinion that he does great work in general but has no idea about building a car from scratch but that just means you gonna have to get someone else on board like Mark to make sure the car drives straight and handles properly just like I needed to get Gaz to get my car looking as good as it should,
My geo problems are of my own making an also caused by Mark!
If he didn't make such awesome wrc parts at affordable prices I would of kept the set up the car was built and set up for
Damn those awesome well priced parts lol
My geo problems are of my own making an also caused by Mark!
If he didn't make such awesome wrc parts at affordable prices I would of kept the set up the car was built and set up for
Damn those awesome well priced parts lol
Last edited by M K; 23-10-2011 at 09:24 PM.
23-10-2011, 10:01 PM
#4148
If you put a nail all the way through the centre of the tyre (on its rolling face) into the ground, the tyre would turn about the centre.... this would be a neutral scrub radius.
Hows the car coming beef?
Rob,
23-10-2011, 10:07 PM
#4149
some production cars are set up to have negative scrub and some positive to aid things like bump steer or for lighter steering when parking etc
Production cars have a negative scrub radius for several reasons,
1) with struts you don't have too many options any way
2) if a brake circuit, of tyre blow out a negative scrub radius will generally pull the car straight, and positive will do just the opposite.
Rob,
23-10-2011, 11:15 PM
#4150
Rob, its amazing how many people fit wide wheels with whatever offset just to fill a set of arches without taking any of the above into consideration. The rear you can sort of get away with it, but the front can make major differences to steering and handling as you wrote.
24-10-2011, 03:48 PM
#4154
Lol, but not directly i read this a while ago and i guess wiki was probably based on it http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Car-Suspension-Practical-Handbook/dp/1844253287/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1319471233&sr=8-3
But perhaps if you had read it first you wouldn't make wrong statements like this
Doesn't really matter where you learn things chap, just that you've learnt them and they are correct.
If you want to quote something text book go ahead, i won't call you out, and make you sound a bell end afterwards either.
Rob,
But perhaps if you had read it first you wouldn't make wrong statements like this
have negative scrub and some positive to aid things like bump steer or for lighter steering when parking etc
If you want to quote something text book go ahead, i won't call you out, and make you sound a bell end afterwards either.
Rob,
Last edited by Rob_DOHC; 24-10-2011 at 03:57 PM.
24-10-2011, 03:51 PM
#4155
Rob, its amazing how many people fit wide wheels with whatever offset just to fill a set of arches without taking any of the above into consideration. The rear you can sort of get away with it, but the front can make major differences to steering and handling as you wrote.
Rob,
24-10-2011, 04:39 PM
#4157
Lol, but not directly i read this a while ago and i guess wiki was probably based on it http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Car-Suspension-Practical-Handbook/dp/1844253287/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1319471233&sr=8-3
But perhaps if you had read it first you wouldn't make wrong statements like this
Doesn't really matter where you learn things chap, just that you've learnt them and they are correct.
If you want to quote something text book go ahead, i won't call you out, and make you sound a bell end afterwards either.
Rob,
But perhaps if you had read it first you wouldn't make wrong statements like this
Doesn't really matter where you learn things chap, just that you've learnt them and they are correct.
If you want to quote something text book go ahead, i won't call you out, and make you sound a bell end afterwards either.
Rob,
afpmsl rob !!!
yeah only just srtted on the mock up and weve filled two pages with mixed opinions lol ,
wait till you see what we got in store for it further down the line lol
but yeah happy to be back on with it ,
spoke to nigel @ avo suspension today regards my shorter bodied coilovers today , super helpful and ive got to make up a drawing with some measurements , he said from that they can work out body length , stroke , valving and a base set of springs to get me started ,
should only take them 3 weeks from placing order , so going round to make up the drwaing on wed eve , also taking along a good friend ken hall , been into motorsport all his life , and certainly knows his oninons , owns a pukka metro 6r4 , escos rally car , and competed in everything from full blown rallies to rallycross to northern saloons
going to come have a look and offer some pointers
24-10-2011, 05:33 PM
#4160
thats the point wenny its not at the front , it will be ok but will be a compromise ,none of this is in any way putting down karl and beefys work it is meant to be contructive advise but i dont think people are taking it like that
mark
mark