Rod-Tarry

Some pics of the girdle & pan. Awaiting delivery of the total kit from MK Motorsport.
Its hoped that a few more horses can be used & engine life extended.

Its hoped that the car will be completed before end of September.

ps. Im not sure if this is mine as ive a Stroker version.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

So the normal caps sit inside it?

Interesting way of doing it.

I was expecting it to be all one piece for the bearing caps TBH

ajamesc

nice looking bit of kit rod

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

hi chip i would be interested to hear what you think of it, all input is good
yes i have made a long stud kit for standard main caps that you torque down as normal,then drop pan on the protuding studs like you would the head and torque that down ,then bolt to pan rails hopefully supporting the mains ,i did consider doing one with mains built in ,but then having to line bore block and ending up with alloy caps didnt think it was a good idea ,then wet sump pan or dry sump pan bolts on bottom ,i can only see a benifit , i spoke with mark shead and he thinks the same we couldnt see down side

thanks mark

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I think its a brilliant idea mate, line boring a block if its not done right can obviously cause massive problems, this way its just a DIY fit item with no specialist engineering required by the end user.

I would think you'll end up selling loads of them if they are priced well enough (looks time consuming to make so I realise its not going to be cheap)

Would be good to see some pictures of the fasteners if thats ok?
Do you mean the studs have two sets of nuts though one under the girdle and one over?

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

thanks chip
i will post some pics ,the studs are turned down 12mm for mains then have a hex milled on then the other end is turned down and threaded for girdle then nuts and washers ,just imagin a standard mains bolt with a stud welded on the bolt head , but mine are all one piece ,girdle is o ringed to block chip
mark

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Yeah I noticed that it had an oring groove milled into it.

Properly nice looking bit of kit.

totalbhp

We have tried these on big power engines before and with a genuine 630lb ft/800bhp they crack the block around the rear main. Dependant on how lucky you are with the block it's built into they last from dyno time and three races to a season and a half.

Regards Harvey.

Sonic Boom

iTrader: (11)

So this girdle will be availble for a wet sump too?
Rich

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

hi harvey
which one have you tried ,as these are the first ones i have done ,surely it has to better than not having one would you say
mark

JamesH

iTrader: (21)

I'm hoping it works for you Rod

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

yes no probs
mark

totalbhp

Hi mark, a customer of ours tried a Julian Godfrey item from his rally x engines and it did not make any difference, the block still cracked when in the car.

Anything to help is good but we didn't see any benefit to be honest.

Regards Harvey.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Harvey, do you think the problem comes from a lack of positive location onto the block which stops it being as effective as it otherwise might? ie just being clamped onto the outer edge of the block by the sump.

Always going to be an issue with any retrofit item sadly.

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

hi harvey
i dont know if the julian godfrey ones weaken the main caps to start with as he machines them flat for his pan to sit on dosent he ,these ones dont alter anything thats there already just add too ,in your opinion harvey they cant do anyharm can they ,also mine are about one fifth the price of juilians so might be worth it
mark

lee2cossies

iTrader: (2)

Harvey, didn't u mention that u were looking into having blocks made out of a stronger material with cosworth when I was up at your place last year?

totalbhp

Hi Chip, I don't believe the girdle design is the issue I believe the block is just not good enough for the power/torque we are trying to push through them. I'm in the process of trying alternative options so at the moment it's a waiting game.

Regards Harvey.

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

hi chip would be easy enough to dowel them to pan rails ,or even enlarge the 6mm tapped holes out to 8 mm ,or even make shouldered studs ,i saw that engine harvey it was charlie shaws wasent it ,all the big power ones are cracking rear of block ,do you think this could be caused by the location the crank has with the gearbox ,not close enough tolerence with spigot and bearing and at high rpm causing resonece

mark

Sonic Boom

iTrader: (11)

Are the CGI blocks alot stronger?
Rich

Chip

iTrader: (3)

What I mean is that if the girdle was held more positively to the block on the outer edges where the block has extra material it would mean that some of the load could be transmitted to there rather than exclusively onto the material around the bearing tunnel.

What I dont have is any useful suggestion of how to do that though beyond the things mark says, like I mentioned the problem with retrofitting is you are limited by what is available on the block to attach to. Unless you do it tractor pull style and put an external frame around it of course, lol.

Any clues as to what route you are trying next, it is always interesting to see this sort of engineering!

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I would think its well worth looking into more positively locating it, obviously you are limited a bit by what material is there to attach to, but got to be better than just the normal M6 sump bolts.

Resonance and vibration are just so massively hard to do anything about, unless you have ford money behind you or similar.

lacey

I spoke to a friend about juilians kit and he explained why he machined the end cap then it all became clear but yes you would have thought it may weeken them .

As for end cap/ girdle in one that is a good idea but it the different exspaintion rates of the block in relation to the alloy caps that would consern me as alloy exspaining when clamped will still move to a serton limit which may or may cause stress on other parts of the block .
Just as a example , my old place of work had to make a 2.2 mtr alloy wheel out of segments and welding ( looked like a old kart wheel ) taking into account the 25 mm exspaintion this wheel when nearly finished just exsploded and nearly made two people very special and that was after the sums were done .

I hear that people are maintaining big power out of alloy blocks people like smith and jones , I have hear the night mares about them and sides falling out and shit but now the tune is changing and they also reckon that cause they can move a bit with the heat/forces in the motor this stops them from cracking how true this is I dont know
It abit like bending rubber and glass , one has gives the other breaks

As much as I agree with the strength issue this girdle may help I also have some reserved thoughts and as much as yours and juilians are the same in the search for strength there are some fundermental differences and that why it will be good to see some results from tests

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

hi dan
you didnt say why he machines the caps flat ,i think cap girdle in one is good if the block was alloy like what millington does ,but like you say different expansion rates with cast block , what are your reserved thoughts about the set up ,you keep saying this but dont explain why lol

mark

lacey

You know why lol .
My friend say that juilian had a prob with the crank exiting the block via the end caps ( splitting them in half) and that is why he felt the need to m/c the caps for a full witness on the girdle , i would would almost go as far as to say his will offer a bit more strength than yours but they will both offer stability but as always need would need to be proven , don't get me wrong I am very interested in the results and if my reservations turn out to be nothing then good

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

hi dan
oh ye i forgot dont be shy then get some pics up lol ,at the end of the day is julians worth the extra £4000 ,for what it does i am not saying its not worth it coz it looks very good but the differnce is it worth the extra ,how much will yours be dan ,i just think the blocks have come to the end of the line for getting more power than they are now and no matter what you do the block its self is just not up too it ,my set up might not be the best i just think it will help and for £1500 isnt out the way considering you get girdle dry sump pan or big wing sump and mains stud and nut kit ,at the end of the day for big power change the block

post pics of yours dan

mark

lacey

I dont disagree with you , 4k is alot but people like his name on the engines , as for pics of mine I will put pics up when it's at that stage which is not yet .
Price for my pan ( same as what you have listed above ) I would hope to Market at no more than 1k but if I can get everything to work in my favour then I would aim for the £800 area ,
As for the blocks there is only so much you can do .
£1500 for your parts is very fair taking in to account the price of billet and so on .
And I will post the pics when ready just got a few other projects to finish first

MK MOTORSPORT

iTrader: (1)

at that price for yours dan you will sell alot ,i will have to look at something else to make lol ,have you made one yet does yours incorperate the main caps ,will it be a bolt on fitment or will you have to do any work on the block or caps
mark

lacey

Like i said Yours is a fair price mate , I may go for m/c top of the end caps but I won't go as far as them being all as one and having to line bore the blocks . Sod that lol .
There can't be to much more left for you to make as you make a shed load of bits already lol

andy escos

iTrader: (1)

were still waiting on the billet engine block

lacey

Turbosport done a block and to be honest it did still look like a block ( like a raw billet lol) but I don't know how they got on with it

750hp escos

Ive spoke to many people about the concerns with the blocks giving up etc when asking big hp from the little 4 pot yb as im doing the girdle etc..

the main issue most talk about is harmonics and this is caused by revs etc..

I think the tall block conversion is the way forward as not only does the 25 mm spacer help with the longer rod and cc etc but it acts like a support plate this with a girdle and better rod angle is going to help us get more power with less stress,revs and boost..

My new engine will be over 2.3 cc similar to martin hadlands achieved tall block but with the added bonus of the girdle for extra bottom end strength through the main caps aswell as the deckplate..

The wet liners mk has desighned are also thicker and stronger than the wet liners that have ever been used so in theory the block is now alot stronger than any other 200 block..

The engine we are hoping will do circa 750 hp on pump fuel at around the 7.5k mark so wont need to ever rev harder than the 8.2k mark and at only around the 2 bar of boost mark...

if all this works out as expected then surely this is the way forward??

Ags 800 hp engine was running 2.5 bar boost at circa 9k revs all of the time in a std all squashed together height block and hence block cracking..

Jg says that he can hold together 800 hp with one of his girdles but he had to do alot of weight changes to the rods crank and pistons to change harmonics etc

At the end of the day martins 700 hp lasted well and this set up is a further development of that so i have big hopes and of course will let evryone know how it goes once finished..



cheers danny