How lean is Lambda 0.86?
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02-01-2006, 10:00 PM
#8
Ah, now this is different, peak power is at 12.6 as im sure you know, and these boys run full thermal management on their engines and thus can control the thermals from the pitlane if required, i naturally presumed we were talking about some kind of average Joe public road engine. My error for not asking... 
02-01-2006, 10:04 PM
#9
DEYTUKURJERBS
Thread Starter
Nah Stu, just wondered from this quote...
Originally Posted by Nicolas Kiesa
Thats correct, even in the F1 cars we do several "map/lambda pulls" its in 4th gear full throttle from 5500 rpm till it hits the limiter.
We fine tune maximum power VS least fuel consumption every circuit we race/test at.
Many would be surpriced how lean we actually run them, leaner than lambda 0,86
We fine tune maximum power VS least fuel consumption every circuit we race/test at.
Many would be surpriced how lean we actually run them, leaner than lambda 0,86
02-01-2006, 10:08 PM
#10
Yeah, a race engine on something like T6 or better could run at 0.90 (13.2) and gain 10% better fuel consumption whilst only losing around 5% horsepower as long as the thermal management was setup correctly.
All the stratagies are in place to control thermals on proper management, even Audi S series have it as std nowadays, K Type thermocouples with fuel/spark/boost trim control to manage temps.
All the stratagies are in place to control thermals on proper management, even Audi S series have it as std nowadays, K Type thermocouples with fuel/spark/boost trim control to manage temps.
02-01-2006, 11:43 PM
#12
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Yeah, a race engine on something like T6 or better could run at 0.90 (13.2) and gain 10% better fuel consumption whilst only losing around 5% horsepower as long as the thermal management was setup correctly.
All the stratagies are in place to control thermals on proper management, even Audi S series have it as std nowadays, K Type thermocouples with fuel/spark/boost trim control to manage temps.
All the stratagies are in place to control thermals on proper management, even Audi S series have it as std nowadays, K Type thermocouples with fuel/spark/boost trim control to manage temps.
03-01-2006, 11:07 AM
#16
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Nicolas Kiesa is quite an active poster on the GTR board. He used to have an Escos as well
Check his wicked R34 on www.Kismo.dk
His other site is www.Kiesa.com
How cool
Check his wicked R34 on www.Kismo.dk
His other site is www.Kiesa.com
How cool
03-01-2006, 11:30 AM
#17
DEYTUKURJERBS
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by GARETH T
Steve yu do find some intresting quotes 
).
03-01-2006, 11:48 AM
#19
Originally Posted by Itsmeagain
Originally Posted by GARETH T
Steve yu do find some intresting quotes
).
03-01-2006, 11:52 AM
#20
DEYTUKURJERBS
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Stu @ M Developments
Originally Posted by Itsmeagain
Originally Posted by GARETH T
Steve yu do find some intresting quotes
).Be good to see/hear your opinions on there about it all Stu (esp as IMO most Skylines arnt mapped too well in the UK)
03-01-2006, 05:17 PM
#23
Professional Waffler
intresting,,, but i like the way people say that F1 use engines dynos,,,,,yes they do,, but they are fuck all like the ones in 99.9% of the tuning shops in the world,, they are fully environmently controlled! and then they still trim on track!
Nicolas Kiesa
this is a very try statment in my eyes,, and shows the reason why bench dynos shouldnt soley be used
Nicolas Kiesa
But again the street has to especially better for mapping town and everyday driving.How can you adjust "slow moving trafic" on a dyno? doing 3 point turns with short blips on the throttle and still maintaining good throttle respons and fuel economy?
I can not relate to electronics measurement for this, I would need to feel the car moving beneath me and make a calculation (within myself)..How much throttle did I apply? for this amount of respons and power delivered to make the car move (without reving abnormally).
I can not relate to electronics measurement for this, I would need to feel the car moving beneath me and make a calculation (within myself)..How much throttle did I apply? for this amount of respons and power delivered to make the car move (without reving abnormally).
03-01-2006, 05:24 PM
#24
DEYTUKURJERBS
Thread Starter
Hes a clever bloke that Mr Kiesa, no noncence, no secrets, nice chap.
If it wasnt for him posting on there id put money everyone on there would just belive that doing on dyno alone is the way, as thats what Abbey will reccomend.
If it wasnt for him posting on there id put money everyone on there would just belive that doing on dyno alone is the way, as thats what Abbey will reccomend.
03-01-2006, 06:08 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by Itsmeagain
Hes a clever bloke that Mr Kiesa, no noncence, no secrets, nice chap.
.
.
And when I say built, I mean with his own hands! not like I would build a car with a telephone and a chequebook
AND he isn't in any way a twat about it! I mean he is really down to earth and doesn't just answer every argument with 'I drive F1 cars so STFU' as 99.999% of people in his situation would!!!
Top bloke I reckon
04-01-2006, 10:42 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by Itsmeagain
If it wasnt for him posting on there id put money everyone on there would just belive that doing on dyno alone is the way, as thats what Abbey will reccomend
Don't paint it that hideous pink colour ...
Phil
04-01-2006, 10:57 AM
#30
DEYTUKURJERBS
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Philip
Originally Posted by Itsmeagain
dyno alone is the way, as thats what Abbey will reccomend
Don't paint it that hideous pink colour ...
Phil
And if so, why they not ever say that?
(and why quote it like thats what id go for, as no way in hell would i
)Its already being painted, blue.
Steve
04-01-2006, 11:06 AM
#32
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Originally Posted by Itsmeagain
So they map them ALL on the road/brunters once they finished with doing the main of it on the dynopack do they?
And if so, why they not ever say that?
(and why quote it like thats what id go for, as no way in hell would i )
Its already being painted, blue.
Steve
And if so, why they not ever say that?
(and why quote it like thats what id go for, as no way in hell would i
)Its already being painted, blue.
Steve
I don't think that everything is actually mapped on the road as well (but then not everyone is chasing the last few hundreths, they just want a quick car that drives well) - you'd need to ask them yourself for a definitive answer.
Phil
04-01-2006, 11:11 AM
#33
DEYTUKURJERBS
Thread Starter
Its not the final last few hundredths thats the issue in the slightest (surely thats what Abbey reccomend the dyno for, as they mention how can you tell if youve just a achived a few more bhp when your mapping in-car, as you cant always feel it, a valid point 
).
The pure dyno mapping issue is safe fueling and ignition for top end when on the road.
And estimating it clearly isnt the way to go, hence why cars go pop on high speed runs, as they not been mapped at that level.
You see people wanging in race fuel for safety before a high speed run on a car thats on a pump fuel map.
Well if it was on a pump fuel map that was done safely itd not need that.
But the only way is to do those high speed runs in the real world.
).The pure dyno mapping issue is safe fueling and ignition for top end when on the road.
And estimating it clearly isnt the way to go, hence why cars go pop on high speed runs, as they not been mapped at that level.
You see people wanging in race fuel for safety before a high speed run on a car thats on a pump fuel map.
Well if it was on a pump fuel map that was done safely itd not need that.
But the only way is to do those high speed runs in the real world.
04-01-2006, 11:14 AM
#34
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GarethT.........
The Who Am I section is on there.....
Originally Posted by Porkie
Check his wicked R34 on www.Kismo.dk
04-01-2006, 11:21 AM
#35
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I see what you're saying - I don't know how accurate a simulation a dyno is for that, but my car has gone 170+ on the road enough times and not gone pop.
I can see that the repeatability and accuracy of something like a Dynapack has to be a huge benefit if you're mapping a car, whether you tweak it afterwards or not.
If I was doing something like TOTB etc. a few gallons of 106 is cheap insurance in any case.
Phil
I can see that the repeatability and accuracy of something like a Dynapack has to be a huge benefit if you're mapping a car, whether you tweak it afterwards or not.
If I was doing something like TOTB etc. a few gallons of 106 is cheap insurance in any case.
Phil
04-01-2006, 11:47 AM
#36
Professional Waffler
Originally Posted by Sketch
GarethT.........
The Who Am I section is on there.....
Originally Posted by Porkie
Check his wicked R34 on www.Kismo.dk
04-01-2006, 12:07 PM
#37
Originally Posted by Philip
I see what you're saying - I don't know how accurate a simulation a dyno is for that, but my car has gone 170+ on the road enough times and not gone pop.
I can see that the repeatability and accuracy of something like a Dynapack has to be a huge benefit if you're mapping a car, whether you tweak it afterwards or not.
If I was doing something like TOTB etc. a few gallons of 106 is cheap insurance in any case.
Phil
I can see that the repeatability and accuracy of something like a Dynapack has to be a huge benefit if you're mapping a car, whether you tweak it afterwards or not.
If I was doing something like TOTB etc. a few gallons of 106 is cheap insurance in any case.
Phil
God, do people not realise that running far too high an octane fuel compared to what the engine is mapped for results in a shift in peak cylinder pressures to later in the cycle, and hence the burn finished later, including potentially so late its after the end of the combustion stroke and onto the exhaust stroke thus buring the shit out of the head.
Running on the wrong fuel is NOT insurance, its fucking stupid!
04-01-2006, 12:18 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by chip3-door
including potentially so late its after the end of the combustion stroke and onto the exhaust stroke thus buring the shit out of the head
Phil
04-01-2006, 12:37 PM
#40
Originally Posted by Philip
Originally Posted by chip3-door
including potentially so late its after the end of the combustion stroke and onto the exhaust stroke thus buring the shit out of the head
Phil
Oh this just gets better.
So skyline tuning basically consists of running the wrong map on your car, and then instead of altering the fuelling because you know its slightly wrong you instead tune the car by altering the octane rating of the fuel until you get somewhere close?
<- real tearsMaybe they should have a tank of each fuel and then they could have mappable fuel pump control to mix it "live" to the correct mixture to avoid problems
That of course all totally ignores the fact that you are trying to solve two totally seperate problems though, ie both the timing and the fuelling being wrong.