andyescos

well, ref me using a PACE statement , I had a call from a very nice copper today who said due to my job he;d give me a ring before taking things further.
Even though I have told them i was driving, in a letter,as it wasn; on the NIP they are prosecuting still for not providing the information .
i told the copper i have given them the information , but we both know that a pace statement cant be used in court. he wouldn;t comment on this.
so, if it goes to court, the burning question is,have i told them the information to sect 182 of the 1988 rt act?
Andy

Ginge !

ERM,,,,,,,, DIDNT I READ THIS BEFORE

andyescos

not the part about the copper ringing me and giving me the option to pay now, anyway, before it was speeding ,now it;s not providing the drivers details.
cheers,Andy

timrud

It's section 172.

And NO you haven't, as its outside of the time you were allowed, which is a month after the NIP is sent out.

Your charge would read...

"......Failed to give information to the Chief Constable between 01/01/2005 and 01/02/2005...."

Obviously they are dummy dates, and are not a month apart, but you get what I'm saying!

I see these everyday dude!

andyescos

i sent them the pace statement within the month though , surely i have given them the required information, just not on a nip?

timrud

They are very picky (well in my area anyway) about how the information can be submitted.

Things can and do vary accross the country though, and it is at somebodys (most likely your local CJU Inspector) discression.

I've not followed your story, why didn't you use the NIP to reply?

Billabong

A mate of mine had something similar - completed form except signature, and within the time limit to submit the document. They wrote back saying they required a signature, but wording was 'clever' and didn't state he had to by law, but sort of read that way (from memory).

They dropped the speeding, and prosecuted him for failing to supply his details (which actually he had, albeit not signed) Think he got 3 points and fine, instead of what would have been a ban. Solicitor advised him to accept this.

Oranoco

Andy mate I really hope you give them the big kick up the backside. Their very kind offer of settling now only goes to prove this. They are worried about having egg on their face. Good on you for standing up to these fuckers

andyescos

NIP starts with a Police caution, ie, so it can be used in court, a PACE witness statement cannot be used in court as you've not been cautioned, but it does, I think, satisfy the requirements of Sect 172 , 1988 Road Traffic Act.

timrud

Andy, can you hang fire until Monday?

Drop me a PM to remind me though (sunday night if poss?), and I will check that at work for you!

Thats a point I'm not sure on?

andyescos

cheers Buddy, will do.

andyescos

any more advice before tomorrow?

andyescos

http://pepipoo.com/NewForums2/viewto...?p=71643#71643

timrud

Andy, I'm a bit I'll might not be going in to work tommorow, but as soon as I do go in I'll ask! Sorry!

The Youth.

iTrader: (1)

pm neil s off here has he has just had an alledged (cough) speeding offence dropped using a similar tactic.
he proved has was within the law (double cough)

steve

andyescos

I've been chatting to Niel S about it, cheers, If I get a phonecall today asking if I'm going to settle , before it goes to court, then my answer is NO. I have provided Liescescter (spelling!) constabulary with the information they require, but on a letter, as ECHR dictates I do not have to self incriminate myself by filling out the NIP.
Andy

Neil S

iTrader: (1)

Fingers crossed dude!

Steve - we're all not guilty

Neil.

The Youth.

iTrader: (1)

steve

Neil S

iTrader: (1)

Andy - just a thought:

If they say anything to you on the phone that you don't like the sound of, or if you feel you're losing control of the conversation, just say "Sorry, there's someone at my door, I'm going to have to go" or similar. There's no law against it, and it will buy you some time to get your head round the situation.

Neil.

andyescos

cheers niel, i;m 0n my palm m0b so i;ll be quick. 6hey are doing me for not producing nip filled out (he said i;m legally obliged to fill out the nip) correctly , even though they acknowledged reciept 0f a witness statement pace saying i was driving in the allowed , copper said "see u in court"

bring it on! let a judge decide if i;ve given them details correctly .

andyescos

I'm on my big PC now so I'll make it more easy to understand.
well, an update, I'm sorry, but I had to phone him back to satisfy my curious mind. sorry. He has stated that "I am legally obliged to fill out the NIP" and that there is no way out of it, no matter what I've "read on the web"
They are reporting me for not filling out an NIP which contravenes sect 172, and then apparently in court they will also do me for speeding as I havent filled all the necessary forms out and did I want a final last chance as I am a fellow "Emergency services" member..
I replied with words to the effect that I won't fill out or sign the NIP, his answer was, "we'll see you in court".

I'm worried now.

Andy

Mike Rainbird

iTrader: (3)

Andy,
That is obviously their intention - it worked .

Neil S

iTrader: (1)

OK Dude - speeding and failing to provide (Sec 172) are mutually exclusive.

They simply can't do you for both: If they can't PROVE it was you driving, then how can they do you for speeding?

Conversely, to convict someone for speeding they have to prove that an offence was committed AND that it was you - if you haven't provided then how can they do this?

The absolute maximum penalty for S172 is 3 points and Ł1000.

As part of my research, I went and sat in at a load of traffic trials. I saw maybe half a dozen S172 cases, and I saw no more than Ł70 fine + Ł40 costs when people were found guilty.

Stick with it IMO

Neil.

R4N SS

iTrader: (6)

i got an update about my speeding thing too - asked for photographic evidence and got it You can barely see the driver and no way can you make the face out

but as i have no way of stating there was someone else driving i may just bite the bullet and send the form off with my details on it.

ballin

iTrader: (1)

like i said all along, its just not worth the hassle imo.

you broke the law, personally i think you should just shrug your shoulders and get on with it. Look at all the hassle and worry you've caused yourself over 3 points and Ł60 or whatever it is.

And end of the day, by the looks of things, you're now looking at a lot worse than you originally were.

I do see why you're doing it and all, I just hope things work out

Lamb Souvla

Andy, Neil S is correct, they cant do you for both offences. I failed to fill in the nip when I was cought speeding, but hadnt given my details by any other way like yourself, but never the less the legal requirement is that you fill in the nip.
They then had to decide which to prosecute me for, which was the failure to complete legally required documents, 3 points and Ł175 fine.
To say I was pissed off would be a understatement, If I had just filled in the nip It would have been Ł60 and 3 points, I did have a driving job at the time and made it clear I would lose my job if I were to recieve points.
I was told that they were going to make a example of me.

Mike

Chipperx2

Good luck with it, justa quick question to any legal eagles, what happens if the cops pull someone and they were driving at 35 say, but all the coppers had to go by was the speedo in their car (No proof from a radar etc) and it was your word against theirs in court, Would this be too little evidence to find you guilty Or is their word much more powerful in court than yours

Neil S

iTrader: (1)

They can use their speedo if I remember correctly. I've read the reasoning behind it, but can't remember it!

ballin / chunk: I fought mine, and won. i can now claim for my time at Ł9.25 per hour, mileage and subsistence. i will come out ahead with a clean license and money in my back pocket. The 'law' is an ass when it comes to speeding, in my case their evidence had more holes in it than the average seive. Thats why.

Neil.

andyescos

I was done 8 years ago for this, no evidence, but 2 coppers against me one it. Result, 5 points and Ł360 fine!

tonyk

Andy you need to be clear in what you say, its no good saying in court, yeah but on the internet. Make sure you have all the relevant road traffic sections etc.. and even if you need to write it down on paper to remember.

Take yourself to the court a few days b4 you go and watch how the solicitors talk to the judge. This is important.

Neil S

iTrader: (1)

Good advice - I did this and it made me much more at ease with the prospect of a trial

Ring your local magistrates, ask for the listing officer, then find out when they are next hearing traffic cases. You can sit in at the back and observe. It's free and good craic!

Neil.

andyescos

still nothing heard!