Jimboxr4x4

My 4wd Saph was fine when I put it in to hibernation in October. Pulled it out for the summer and It’s had fresh fuel and started but ran really rough with vibrations and wouldn’t rev. It got worse after 30 seconds or so and now won’t even start.

I have already changed the rotor arm and distributor cap. There is fuel to the rail and spark at the plugs.

When the car was running with vibration I did see a 1+ 3 error code but now showing nothing code wise now it won’t even start.

I believe 1 + 3 code is shown as ‘ignition timing signal (ECU internal)’. Does this literally mean ECU problem or could this be CPS?

Thanks in advance.

oldford

The 1+3 code is Sequence error. There's something wrong with the number of pulses received from the Crankshaft position sensor and/or the Camshaft position sensor.
The engine controller cannot determine which sensor is at fault or if a trigger is missing from the crankshaft pulley.

Jimboxr4x4

That’s great, thank you. I seem to still have all of the lugs on the pulley so guess the CPS should be my first port of call, followed by the phase sensor if that doesn’t work.

ray barker

might be worth cleaning the sencor .i usually keep mine running through the winter i move it around the garage press the brake pedal thirty times handbrake up and down allso put all the lights. but this winter i didnt because of making a new exhaust. i started it last week friggin abs light wont go out now speedo stopped working which is coincidental one of the injectors started leaking.its never worth not starting them on like a weekly basis

Jimboxr4x4

That makes total sense. I started it a couple of times over the winter but whenever I leave it for more than a couple of months it always seems to have developed some problem while off the road. I’ve ordered a full set of new sensors from Matt lewis so next week I’ll swap them out stating with the CPS and phase sensor. Gotta have it running again for taxing on the 1st May.

ray barker

thats looks a realy nice car i got same thing mine was the same colur as well i think is yours mercury grey or moonstone cant quite tell in the pic, im car sprayer mechanic and like a right bellend i sprayed mine black and mercury grey i think is a rareish my other confession is i sprayed it ford midnight blue before that its a 1970s colour another bellend moment. its never worth not starting and running them up to full temp once a week and turn everything on this has bitten me on the ass this time for twenty years i been doing this but because i was making a new exhaust this winter i couldnt

Jimboxr4x4

Thanks. Mine is moonstone but I personally think black looks the nicest colour so can see why you sprayed yours. You are right though mercury grey is pretty rare now.

lesson learned though once I get it running I’ll start it up regularly throughout the winter rather than leaving it a couple of months at a time.

ray barker

jimbo was yours originaly moonstone or did you get it painted i dont see many saffs that was originally that colour it was for 3doors. i was trying to think why yours looks so different to mine at the front what is the spliter on it of ive got a rep rs 500 spliter i had made from a chap on here who had a mould he did a good job considering it was only 150 quid. at some point mine is going back mercury grey

Jimboxr4x4

Its always been moonstone. It’s a pretty common colour for 3drs and saphs although they had lots of different shades of it so it’s a bit of a nightmare getting the exact colour match if you need any paint.

The splitter is a actually a renault Laguna splitter which fits perfectly and is deeper than the original. I fitted it about 15 years ago.

ray barker

just before i bought my rep spliter i was looking at laguna ones they were fetching strong money and not easy to get because i joined the party to late i should of done it about the same time you did yours good old cossie tax not. my speedo cable has turned up at argos click and collect some of the pattern part shit is terible my last speedo cable didnt fit right where it was supposed clip in to the back of the drive dash board end was quarter of an inch away so its been flopping about for ten year not unless its had a different speedo drive put in it so it dont fit wright but this time im cable tieing it in with some hot glue to hold the ties in place to stop it slipping down and easy enough to get back of

Jimboxr4x4

update: I’ve fitted a new crank position sensor and new phase sensor but still won’t bloody start. I was sure the phase sensor would be the issue as it was gapped to 0.6mm and the wires were mullered.





New one fitted and gapped to 0.3mm but no joy.

I changed the CPS and gapped to 0.8mm but again no joy.

The plugs smell of fuel and there is spark at rack plug so what on earth is stopping it starting?

It turns over but won’t fire. There are no error codes coming up.

Any ideas? Thanks.

cossynut2

Immobiliser problem maybe?

Jimboxr4x4

Thanks for the suggestion. Do the immobilisers not cut the fuel pump though and if its getting fuel and spark I had ruled out the immobiliser. Plus it was running albeit really rough before it stopped starting so don’t think it’s an immobiliser problem.

ray barker

make sure its got fuel at the injectors by pulling one out there easy to pull buy a new set of rubber o rings there a slightly wider diamerter than the ones you get in the multi sets. you can also check fuel delivery going to the rail after the reg you cant rely on the plug is getting wet put the fuel pipe in a jar turn the engine over make sure there spraying and the fuel pipe is gushing it sounds exstreme but i recently had to do the same took me less than an hour all back together. if theres no proper fuel as above look at the amobiliser. its got spark new cps new faze. when you fit the faze when the engine is on the timming marks dangle a bit of cotton with a needle on the end over the end of the rotor arm the needle should be poinnting down at the scribed mark of the dizi body if the faze timming is correct if not slacken the dizi and turn it so it does. i dont have feul pressure test gear this is what i do and your aslo making sure the timming is spot on too check all the lugs on the crank shaft pully i think this was all ready said it cant be anymore than this thers loads of really good illustrations on timming marks give us a ring if you struggle

XR2

The Sierra Cosworth soon is 40 years old and so are many parts in these cars. As long as you don't change/remanufacture many of those parts they might get stuck, that's right. (Brake pressure pump, brakes, switches, speedo etc.) But it won't cure the initial problem.

Plus: starting the engine every week while the car is stored away will significantly reduce the durability of your engine. Cold starts are never good. But when it's running for a few minutes (or less) it never gets totally warmed up so you'll end with a lot of condensation in the engine and in the exhaust. I don't think I have to explain anyone what this means!?

There's a good reason why every expert in storing classic cars advises you to store it as dry as possible, change the oil before the winter, block openings like the exhaust or the carbs with oily rags, lift it in the air and leave it alone for the winter.

ray barker

what i do with mine apart from this year which has been different i never leave it more than two weeks i start it untill the rad fans start and stop its fully warmed thermostat has opened i then drive mine around around where i live get it on boost a bit while im waiting for the rad fans i turn everything on hazards lights heaters you name it i lightly pump the brake pedal twenty thirty times this also runs some sort of check through the abs as after about a dozen pumps the abs light comes on and runs a check and then goes out hand brake up down twenty odd times i try to simulate its been driven couple times a week its never worth momentaraly starting them with somthing like a cossie you get alot of bore wash like you said condensation is a big problem if not driven properly alot of other classics like mk1mk2 escorts i probably wouldnt start at all my mk1 rs 2000 i had years ago i would turn the engine by hand id put oil down the sprark plug holes operate the brakes theres alot less to go wrong with cars like that some engines want get to operating temps unless driven only twice in twenty year ive had problems after winter layup and both times i couldnt do what i usually do i also keep a small green house heater on all year twenty four seven inside the car mines eighteen inches long i keep it up on a bungie cord between the rear grab handles this is the best thing i started to do over recent years its nice and warm in there and there ever so cheap to run my misses says it uses very little

XR2

Just wanted to make sure people don't think starting their car now and then during the winter and letting it idle for one or two minutes is a good idea.


Still there's one car here that doesn't want to idle at all.

The time signal fault might just be a symptom, not the reason. When the engine speed drops far below idle speed some ECUs produce such faults.
Although changing the sensors hasn't been a bad idea. Broken insulation is a major issue.

Again check the most obvious things.

Fueling ok? The fuel pump might have stopped working or the fuel pressure might be too low. Does the pump run when you turn the key? Are the connectors (also on the pump relay) ok? Do you have fuel coming out of the injectors when you try to start the car? A fuel pressure check could also help. And even if the pump is running, how old is your fuel filter? A blocked fuel filter also might cause the problems you describe.
Spark ok? Do you have a spark on every plug when you try to start the car?

Sensors ok? You need engine speed and engine load for the ignition timing. When the MAP is shot, the ECU might think you're already on high/full load. And with the wrong ignition advance the car won't run properly.
TPS also might be worth a check. When the ECU thinks throttle is already open at idle speed it will add some fuel which will cause the engine to run far too rich when the throttle is still closed.
I'm not sure about the sensors used on the Cosworth, but in most cars (early CVH/OHC/Zetec EFIs wer different) you can check these with a simple multimeter.

XR2

P.S.: Any air leaks? Or maybe mice in your air filter box?

Engine turns fine when cranking and you have oil pressure? Check compression, too. Make sure it's no mechanical fault before you waste time, money and nerves on electronic parts.

Jimboxr4x4

Thanks for everyone’s suggestions. By turning over with wide open throttle it has now started and will idle but really rough with vibration and doesn’t want to rev. Oil pressure is fine.

It’s now showing two error codes:

1+1 - inductive rev/TDP sensor (which I believe is crank position sensor)

1+3 - ignition timing signal ECU internal (which I believe could be phase or crank pos sensor)

So far I have fitted new phase sensor gapped to 0.3mm, new CPS gapped to 0.8mm, new air charge temp sensor, put fresh petrol in and cleaned connectors for TPS and idle control valve. All plugs have been cleaned and gapped to 0.8mm.

I’m wondering if it could be a wiring fault somewhere, possibly with the CPS.

XR2

I don't know much about Cossies, their electronics and fitting/setting up the sensors. But as the ECU still has problems with the engine speed sensors this is the first thing to check. TDP = top dead point, so this is the crank position sensor.

Probably it's just one sensors that doesn't work as it should. The ECU gets signals that don't match and has error codes for both. Easiest things to do: check all connections. Plug the ECU off and back in again, do the same with the connectors for your sensors, check for rust/oxidation/dirt on the contacts and check all the mass connections to the body at the battery, inside the car and in the engine bay.

And having someone with an oscilloscope to check the sensors might be helpful.

Jimboxr4x4

Thanks. I’ve reconnected all the sensors and now idling with no error codes but still really rough and won’t rev.

I’m going to check the values across all of the ECU pins next. Just about had it with this car though and in the 15 years I’ve owned it this is the first time I have seriously thought of getting rid of it. I’ve only done about 20 miles in it since last summer and might be time to get it running and sell up for something a tad more reliable.

Jimboxr4x4

I’m struggling to find the coolant temp sensor as might as well change that out just in case although it isn’t showing any error code relating to the CTS. But, where the hell is it?

Now found it and cleaned up the connector but still running shite.

stevieturbo

And is it firing on all cylinders ? If not, find out which ones.

Could likely just be plugs are fucked from being drowned when it has not been starting and running correctly. Throw new plugs in

Changing sensors at random is pointless.

ray barker

if its firing on all plugs as above try new plugs old ones get fukered they still kind of work but become weak and dont like cold start fuel did you check the timming is spot on weve all been there at are whits end with them stick with it

ray barker

any luck jimbo

Jimboxr4x4

Thanks for all the suggestions. Timing is fine and I’ve cleaned the plugs up. About to fit a new coil and hoping that might solve it.

stevieturbo

Test, don't hope.

cossie2

...Have you tried to reduce the gap on both sensors?

Jimboxr4x4

I haven’t reduced the gap beyond the recommended distances. I changed the induction coil and still the same so I’m going to change out the plugs for some 071 motorcraft ones. If that doesn’t work I’ll do the leads although they are testing fine.

I’m convinced it is something to do with the ignition system so just got to keep eliminating all of the possibilities and eventually I must get there.

stevieturbo

It's simple.

Fuel, air, spark. And ensure sparks are at a sensible time that will allow the engine to run.

You don't offer any info as to whether it makes any attempt to start, how fast it's turning over etc etc ?

ray barker

your missing a trick here jimbo its ok cleaning plugs but plugs dont really clean back in the day when they got lumps of carbon on them we used to sand blast them from them bottom up inside they loose there resistance condensation kills them from inside and outside the engine if its fireing on all plugs and the spark isnt yellow and should be a darkish blue colour if there blue a new coil isnt going to do much. what ive over looked is the idle control valve this does the cold start mainly pull it out and clean the housing that it goes into theres an o ring on the bottom of the icv they become stuck clean the houing with a bit of 240 wet an dry and wd40 if the o ring is stuck it will stop the icv from operating which might not give you cold start dont waist your money on ht leads all the leads dont go down at the same time you might get the odd missfire on one cylinder but to prove the odd missfire you can try moving the miss to another cylinder

stevieturbo

As above and already said. If the plugs have been drowned, throw them in the bin.

All too often any attempts to clean is just pissing in the wind

And if you are claiming timing is good, claiming sparks are good, then it has to be fuel. Although I suspect things have not been tested fully

Jimboxr4x4

Thanks chaps. I’ve ordered some motorcraft 071 plugs from Matt lewis so I’ll see if that makes a difference.

Everyone’s advice is much appreciated 👍

stevieturbo

It always seems so weird that Cossie's run such a cold plug. It's a miracle they don't foul all the time.

ray barker

any plug will allmost do to prove a point as long as there the same length halfords keep a plug for the yb that cross reference over there not bad at all i cant tell the difference between them and the cossie tax ones but i dont run mega boost

stevieturbo

They don't seem too expensive.

Although I'd sooner run a NGK or Denso

ray barker

i think denso was the mint ones i bought of a cossie tunner when me and the misses went rs coumb couple years back he recomended but ive got all my old shit back in there at the mo faze sencor plugs cap i had a missfire i couldnt get rid of so swoped all my old but good back up stuff back in turned out it was an injector driver in the ecu i need to swop everything back

ray barker

any luck jimbo

Jimboxr4x4

Just fitted the new motorcraft plugs and fired up first time, idled fine and reving okay. Only ran it for ten seconds in the garage but I’ll take it out at the weekend for a proper test. Can’t believe it was something so simple!

Thanks to everyone for the advice, really appreciated 👍

stevieturbo

Flooded plugs are usually junk. It's just such a waste of time trying to start an engine with plugs that have been flooded. And do not listen to people telling you to try and clean or dry them

Plugs are cheap, just change them. However, I would not keep doing short cold starts with them, or you might flood them again