Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

I think you're just be argumentative for the sake of it Mark , when I was rebuilding customers engines and was faced with a cracked block the method I used was as described in my previous post and no problems were encountered afterwards.

Rsmat

iTrader: (2)

I love filling crack if that helps ::

Caddyshack

I heard that you can only partially fill them though?

You might need me to long stud it after lol

Adam-M

Pmsl

markk

iTrader: (2)

No, arguing because people think that a crack is ok and that its acceptable.
Once a riser has appeared then the core has shifted end of.
Work to save the block is just that. Not right, but the answer should be a new block. Given the option you too would choose to replace it.

Rsmat

iTrader: (2)

Martin-Hadland

iTrader: (2)

Last reply as I'm busy.

YES I would replace with new if it was a new build and a block was available BUT I'd still be happy to use the block if needed, no matter how you dress this up the block works just fine after long studding, the end!. This is based on experience.

Oh and btw I'm quite happy to take cracked 200 blocks for scrap value

costina

iTrader: (1)

205 block with the shit arp stud and nut kit.......

These should never be used in any build

luke_rs1800

i believe its due to the fact that number 3 cylinder runs hotter than the others on a cossie lump. and for that reason with the bore being oversized and effectively thinner it causes the crack. if you can retard no3 a degree or so and add a splash more fuel it will keep it cooler.
nothing wrong with liners tho. some very powerful engines are liner engines. just as long as its done right. always hear about how bad the 205 block is etc etc. my opinion is that they are fine if done properly and mapped properly etc.

moondustka

Christ, that's a whole different set of problems!

Caddyshack

If we leave aside the any perceived Kudos of having a Cossie Lump would a 2.3 Duratec turbo not be worth considering as a modern alternative? Was the Guy Martin van a V6 ford lump from America, that was reliable enough at 750 bhp.

Adam-M

I would be genuinely suprised if the block would be anywhere near as strong on a duratec/zetec compared to a 200 block or rs500.

Rsmat

iTrader: (2)

Was used on my 205 block in 2011 with 36psi ..6years later still going strong ..they have to be fitted right in the first place to work .

Caddyshack

I have always thought that there must be a fitting error with ARP kits as they would have changed the design if they failed all the time, I think I read on here that it was an issue with them bottoming out in the thread and people not checking or clearing the thread???? (something like that)

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

not a fitting error at all Toby it expansion difference and some are lucky some are not

Adam-M

Didn't Tony measure the head after heating it upto 92 degrees and it expanded by 17thou? Stretch bolts would allow that but ARP's won't and the pressure just seems too much for the threads. Dont get me wrong previous owner fitted them to mine and when I stripped the engine the threads are ok.

costina

iTrader: (1)

Really i am an engineer by trade so was fitted correctly.

Even Tony dont use these bolts and if they was that good ford would have use something similar....
Hence the stretch bolts due to alloy head and block heating at different rates.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

Iirc yes Tony did look into it and like I say some are lucky

Which also brings another reason to the table clamping force would cause the block to split at the top too

Caddyshack

I will get my coat then! Lol

Surely ARP would have been made aware of this and withdrawn the product or swapped to stretch bolts? Seems odd to me.

Rsmat

iTrader: (2)

Forgot engineers never do anything wrong ..i was just saying mine was fine but as explained above I must have been lucky ..the only reason I chose these in 2011 was due to the fact of boost I was going to run and not being able to long stud a 205 ..knowing this now i wish I'd stuck to standard Ford ..ive also gone down this route with my Rs turbo ..its staying standard bolts .

Caddyshack

My long term plan is Smith and Jones Ally block but this thread has made me think about getting my 200 block long studded and oil squirts done seeing as I run at 469bhp with a lot of boost now, I guess the block will be worth a bit more to a buyer when I do the full build?

I think that if I ask Mark Shead to make it bullet proof he may want to liner it anyway and then I may as well not do it and just drop the money on the Ally block as the costs are too close together.?

Ridgey

iTrader: (5)

ARP sell them with no come back, of course they'll continue to sell them

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

Sensible choice tbh by the time you go liners oil jets and other block mods stud work a bit you have the security that the alloy block stands up to anything you can throw at it and like you say you will get a good chunk back for the 200 block . But then that gets you thinking there head is good to and getting good head is quite important

costina

iTrader: (1)

Lol like techniclutch eh......

costina

iTrader: (1)

I didnt mean to come across like that and i should have read the last post by Adam.....

You must have been lucky and tbh there are a lot of idiots out there who dont pay attention to the little details like cleaning threads removing any oil in the holes checking even std head bolts dont bottom out afer a head has been skimmed to death.
They just nail it together......
Mine also runs 2.2bar of boost on std head bolts with no issues on a 205 block but again its all down to who built it and do they have an accurate torque wrench.

Rsmat

iTrader: (2)

It's a no brainer mate ..and by the looks of it you've talked yourself into it ..good decision ..

Nah it's fine mate ..yea if I'd have known this in 2011 i would have stayed STD head bolts ..but luckily it has lasted ..on my rs turbo build I looked once again and the horror stories aren't worth the risk ..when ford did an awesome job of the head bolts and head Gasket .

Caddyshack

I did speak to Mark about their head as it is a LOT of money and he said that it is good but it is built to their ideal spec (which I assume is for naturally aspirated engines up to 2.7l) and Mark said that whilst it flows well he would still be modding it to his spec so we have left it that he would port my head until such times as he says yay or nay once he has the engine apart. I would not personally run to the expense of the ally head.

Adding up the cost of Ally block, pistons, arrow crank rods (all for 2.2 or 2.3), head work, cam, labour, mapping and all the other little bits it does get quite scary.

Adam-M

As a preventive measure I'm getting my centre six longstudded and using ARP's on the other four I don't like the idea of four stretch bolts and 6 non stretch as in my mind that would give un-even clamping pressure.

Ridgey

iTrader: (5)

Adam.
That's quite interesting as I'm running 6 long studs and 4 stretch bolt, metal head gasket. But was getting the water system blowing slightly. Going to take the head off, etc. Half expecting a bolt loose!.
Always worried me torquing different methods on the same installation.

Martin H/Mark S
What's your views on this ?

Mark Shead

you need to make sure the outer 4 have the same thread pitch and Spec matireal. Mine are custom made and are way above any other spec out there but lots of thought and testing has gone in to it.

Mark

Adam-M

Would you sell me your studs?

Edited to add, I've seen a pic of yours and the four short ones are non stretch bolts so kind of confirms my thoughts on using standard bolts alongside longstuds.

Mark Shead

what I am saying is check the Spec of the diff length studs to make sure they are right for each other.
The old mountune ones where the same pitch and type and you tightened them diff than the stock outer studs.
All bolts stretch or yield as you could call it but all diff based on material Spec.

Mark

Adam-M

You won't sell yours but is there another supplier that you think would be ok upto 500hp?

Ridgey

iTrader: (5)

+1......

M K

iTrader: (9)

My 200 block was cracked when I bought it for £150 on standard bore

I had the cracks fully ground out then welded up and the block decked when it was long studded

I had all 10 studs done

Also I had the block drilled and tapped into cylinder number 3 for the main oil return as this is supposed to be a hot spot on the cossie block

Not sure of the truth in all this but FMS does this on all there builds for that very reason

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

mark it's a inherent problem from when the pinto first started getting tuned on carbs LOL just back then 205 blocks were £30 or £100 for a full motor . Most 200 blocks share the same issues as the 205 and if the sleeve hasn't cracked it's the back bolt hole because it's with the fact the hole wasn't cleaned properly before new bolts or because the threads are right at the top of the block and the clamping cracks them. This is why 200s are preferred above 400 bhp as the thicker waist allows long stuffing so you are clamping from the bottom of the block so less stress on the face of the block so better clamping

james kiely

iTrader: (5)

at what bhp do you need to long stud jay?

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

I'd say if your doing a build above 400 ish it's a no brainer as it is part of gaining reliability and why not as if you going for power and spending good monry why skip the important bits . I remember Karl Norris doing a write up on 500 bhp engines and said standard bolts are fine as long as you change them every 3 to 4k now I don't like that idea as steady hs already mentioned ever bolt is different and what if the clamp isn't as tight as previous and you are still clamping at the top of the block

20/20 vision

the head is aluminium and the bolts are steel. aluminium expands about twice the rate of the steel bolts and as the engine heats up, the head will expand 100% more than the studs want to. the very reason that the std studs are 'stretch bolts' is to accommodate this situation as they have a greater stretch /force and are more elastic than normal bolts so they will return to the original length when cold.

when 6 long studs are fitted the material of the long studs (steel) will also expand at half that of the head but since they are twice as long as the head is thick, the situation becomes about equal. i don't know if arp considered this or just jumped on bandwagon of supplying bolts as there were lots of folk rebuilding cosworth engines but if their studs are just 'high quality steel' without any concessions to the above point then that's maybe why they seem to pull the threads out

Adam-M

That's why I don't think stretch bolts and long studs are a good combo as one allows the head to lift and the other doesn't. Also I think longstudding is better as the threads are at the bottom of the engine where there is less stress rather than at the top of the combustion chamber.