london_chris

hey all, ive been here a while but have recently taken the plunge to venture away from cvh engines and bought my first cosworth.

ive bought a escort cosworth and am after some tuning advice.

back when i was a regular on the scene in the late 90s and early 2000s, it was all mainly 803s,3bars and t34 turbos etc for 330/ 350 bhp

things have moved on what with wasted spark, siemens injectors and turbos etc and i was wondering if people would be so kind as to give input into the new routes to go regarding tuning.

so would anyone be able to list what would be required for say a 350 bhp build, and 400 bhp build and then a 450 bhp build.

I'm not sure if stuff like long studs etc would be required for each so muchos gracias for input.

i really want to have a great road car, not fussed about track time etc.

would love to hear from the tuners with opinions too!

many thanks in advance.

3doorcozmess

Hi Chris

Many more people on here know more than me but I will put my 50p in

I recently sold an escort and that was 415 bhp

It had group a head gasket
Siemens 72lb injectors
T34-63
Uprated in tank fuel pump
500 intercooler
Wasted spark
Two stage Boost controller 15psi 300 bhp or 30psi 415
14mm inlet spacer
Live mapped by James@ MSD.

The engine was standard, 400 bhp in my opinion is easy to achieve its when you go for the 450 bhp mark gets a bit more expensive.

I was told I could of achieved 440bhp by installing a AB07 inlet cam and swapped the turbo for a T38 turbo still on the above set up.

Step up from from that you would need head work (porting) pistons out skimmed for lower comp and valve cuts to allow for a higher lift cam ie bd14 ect. You can still use the T38 but would need to have a billet compresser wheel but is about £900-950ish exchange so not cheap and they still use the T34 turbo and bore it out but good for 480bhp ish.

Motorsport developments
Norris motorsport
Grove garage
Would be my choice if I was going that route.

or you can go another route, install aftermarket engine management big injectors, 7064 EFR turbo and manifold and achieve 450-470bhp and have a really responsive road car.

(Altho the aftermarket ecu is not necessary)

There's a car floating about on the forums that's done the efr route and the car RR at 470 bhp @ 490 lb on a standard engine with a group A head gasket.

This route I'd use MADevelopments

Hope this helps and don't throw up too many opinions

personally I wouldn't even bother with 350 bhp stage 3, green injectors. Two slow especially if you have 4x4 it loses to much power through the transmission. 400 bhp minimum for the win..

Cheers Si.

Sonic Boom

iTrader: (11)

First thing I'd do is put an aftermarket ECU on with a brand new engine loom, after that anything you modify engine wise is just a bit of mapping.

Rich

3doorcozmess

2.5k tho with out gaining any extra power

LHD220Turbo

iTrader: (4)

upgrade the gearbox & diffs first would be my shout unless you dont want to go beyond 350/350'ish. Then upgrade the brakes

beyond that, the T series turbo's are somewhat dated compared to what's available now, the Borg Warner turbo's is currently where we are in terms of technology, from the graphs ive seen they look awesome.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

cosworth tuning guide






DONT FUCKIN DO IT

Rod-Tarry

Do it right do it once. If you want 2015 Power capabilities using latest parts you need 2015 control of that engine.

fraser9764

iTrader: (3)

2.5k is a bit on the high side!
for adaptronic that mine runs, or EMU that Sonic Boom runs, you are looking at 650-700 for the ecu, then build the loom yourself or pay someone a few hundred to wire it up.
then the actual mapping will probably be cheaper than using MSD/NMS/turbosystems. Certainly no more expensive.

For that you get reliability and driveability from a new loom and modern control system, and you get all the extras for free, like Wasted Spark, closed loop, launch control, antilag etc. that you have to pay extra for with old weber stuff.
Also, you aren't limited to old cossie sensors that are in short supply, (3 bar map for example) so it becomes cheaper again. And you can run pretty much any injector you want so long as it physically fits. so you aren't waiting for ages for a set of Siemens 83lbs to come up and paying over the odds fror them.

When you look past the initial work/outlay, it really does make a lot of sense. Whish I'd of done it sooner.

london_chris

ok then rod, your in the know price wise, spec me a build to 400 bhp from a std engine.

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

Would depend on what state the std engine is in.


I do 400 bhp on std engines all the time. T34.63 or T36 to be sure and a set of 55s with a 3bar map sensor. Any weber ECU will do that easily if the person using it knows what they are doing.

3doorcozmess

Fair enough if your building a monster engine that needs better control but were talking 400-450bhp which is easily achieved on the standard Webber L8 or P8.

3doorcozmess

Can you please supply a cost breakdown then.

£700 Ecu, does that come with the sensors? if no how much to add them. How much would it be for someone to build the loom. How much would it cost for someone to install it. how much to add wasted spark (coilpack and leads ect).


I don't think 2.5k is high, I was including mapping with in that price.

Adam-M

I'll be down at your garage in the next couple of months to get mapped, not got a t34 still on the t3. Just needs set up properly.

I like the idea of a fancy Ecu and
wiring loom but don't see the point if you still have a floppy mt75 gearbox and near open diffs, standard suspension ect.

costina

iTrader: (1)

James, Do you have a map for that? And what psi to produce 400?

Paul

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

T34.63 can just about do it on a good engine,
T36 will do it at 2bar,
Best getting it in for a days mapping really to iron it out at £250 all in on the dyno

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

Sounds good, T3 is nice for a road car

Adam-M

You have PM

cossiestu

harsh but fair!!

Nothing against any other tuner, but location wise, go and speak to Sheady, he can have a look over ther car and point out anything that might need attention first....

You still keeping the S1?

3doorcozmess

Mark is good that's who I'm using, but unfortunately he will not map webber ECUs, doh

london_chris

yep, s1 stays, thats not going anywhere, was starting to get disillusioned by it all and fearing itll never get done, so what better way to cheer yourself up than to buy another car!

i have a list as long as my arm just sent over to matt lewis on the service items etc, but will deffo speak to a few ppl regarding specs and whats best to do immediately.

it is a bit of a pisser that sheady doesnt map webber tho as its already there and does kind of make it alot more expensive needlessly just for him to map.

3doorcozmess

Where you from chris

london_chris

dorking 3dr

Caddyshack

Go aftermarket ECU and loom with coil on plug, it will be the best few grand you will spend. Just look at all the posts about "my car misfires" etc... The car may not produce more power (although I bet it does) but it will be livelier due to the better mapping. Then just lob on a Borg Warner EFR if you need more power and less lag but bear in mind it will kill a 4x4 box due to the high low down torque. Mark Shead at MAD did all mine and I am now finishing the new box and diffs to handle all the power (mine made 470bhp and 500lbft on a standard engine and would do more with better intercooler)

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

Look at all the posts about poorly set up and tuned cars aswell, if the weber ECU on a YB is working properly with a good loom its pretty faultless tbh, even on an EFR.


Sure there are things it cant do, but there's plenty it can do very well, it just needs to be set up and made right by someone who knows them and can use it properly. Most running issues I see on Weber, are from bad looms, with noise and low voltage under load, or just badly set up and tuned. You would probably get just the same poor results if you had those issues on aftermarket, but in changing to aftermarket you are fixing them!


Lets see how the new ecus perform is 25years.

PF Ben

iTrader: (1)

Caddyshack - are you able to put an engine spec of yours up please?

Thank you,

Ben

3doorcozmess

Chris

Would you consider buying a off the shelf chip? If yes buy one of them and I know of a garage in croydon who is shit hot with cosworth's and will carry out any engine work for you. but he don't get involved with mapping.

Si

My old engine he done

3doorcozmess

Ben the engine is standard lol


That's why I'm copying Caddyshack

But I have a better cooler lol

Caddy I still want you 044 sorry dude been busy.

Si

london_chris

No I'll be live mapping the car. Not personally but will take it somewhere to be mapped.

costina

iTrader: (1)

We both know the answer to that James.😉 modern electronics are shite. If a weber marrelli ecu is good enough for a F40 its fine for sierra.

Caddyshack

Yup, all 100% standard. Just Borg efr with correct twin scroll manifold and, coil on plug, old Skool RS 500 cooler and vipec mapped by Mark shead, nothing more than that other than proper down pipe and exhaust.

costina

iTrader: (1)

good spec. What makes me chuckle is all the people out there who overspec a engine and end up making it worse. Over the years i have seen some good ones.

Bet the tuners have seen some crackers.

Caddyshack

Yup, slapping a bigger turbo just makes for a more laggy car in most instances, more power but slower in some cases due to waiting for spool up between gear changes. Then using the old Ecu and generic chips etc.

Caddyshack

Oh yes, the F40 which was made famous for it's comical turbo lag and faliures if left out in the rain. Ferrari have now stopped using that ECU and have moved on. A 458 would muller an F40 for drivability and performance and that is their bottom of the range product.


If you take a std loom out of a cossie many of the wires are corroded too, a new loom and a new ECU transforms the reliability and running of the cars plus you can map for a more lively engine.


the Weber Marreli is like a 486 1990's PC compared to an Emtron as 2015 Apple Mac

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

You can map for a more lively engine on a weber if you can use it. Just tell it when to spark and when to add fuel.
The YB is not a modern engine by any means, most newer cars have to have more capabilities due to the hardware they run, but bolting a new manifold and turbo onto a YB doesn't make it modern, it came out of the ark. I mean its waste gates are normally closed, and it injector into the inlet, show me a modern performance car that does that.
Most modern Turbo cars cruise with the waste gates open to improve economy, engine efficiency goes through the roof with the gates open and fuel economy increases massively, my little 135I will do near on 40 mpg, with an extra litre of engine size and an extra turbo. And it puts the fuel where you want it, the engine, All with almost Zero emissions.
The YB is a very dirty inefficient engine in modern terms, which is why they stopped making it.

Caddyshack

I averaged 26mpg out of my twin turbo 135i.....that would be the one with the twin scroll turbos too, ala EFR


I know what you are saying that the YB is old and someone like you can do wonderful things with the Webber.....most off the shelf chips aint all that though imo. My T34 with Ahmed Chip on L8 was rubbish compared to what I have now.


My point to the OP is that I think he will spend a fair bit of money on a bigger turbo and stick with the old fashioned distributor providing his spark (My Metro had that!) and not get what he wants. He was asking for tuning advice and I believe the money is best spent on a loom first, then modern ECU with coil on plug and new injectors before slapping a new (old skool T34 or the like) turbo on his car.


He could end up with a mis firing, T4 lag monster with no low down power and then big headline number if he is not careful.


Horses for Courses and only adding in my experiences. The point about old fashioned was simply debunking the "good enough for an F40" line

James @ M Developments.

iTrader: (2)

You should see what the new OEM ECUs can do if you think the aftermarket ones are clever


don't get me wrong, I know full well the Aftermarket ECUs are very good, and im more than aware of the results Mark gets from them are superb. But there is still life in the old Weber if things are set up and working properly. That's all i'm getting at. If I was really going to push a YB on over 450-500bhp I would also probably change to aftermarket, but up to that point it still works fine.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

Agreed if it is taken to Mark and even though Mark doesn't map weber I believe he has a great relationship with MSD so can order a correct chip and set it up if needed

cossiestu

Didn't realise he didn't do Weber now, not been in touch for a while... Still handy for local hands on advice.
Nothing against any other tuner, may I add!!

Marc sierra

iTrader: (1)

That's interesting. Would it be possible to improve the YB fuel consumption during cruise by opening the waste gate? I know that with the standard amal valve and actuator it's not possible, since it needs pressure to open. But with a different controller I guess it should be possble in some way.

london_chris

come on then peeps, lets see some realistic build specs then.....................

ok, so lets say, 400hp target.
assume bog standard car.

lets see what people can come up with, if you spec it i'll price it.

list all that will be required i.e turbo, management if changed, loom etc etc

i have no idea of whats what as im more comfortable tuning cvh's