Want to learn about dyno power figure manipulation? Read on...
13-07-2013, 02:45 PM
#41
My ride on lawn mower has 400+ bhp ,,,,,but im to busy to take it anywhere to show how fast it is
and my Caltex car has well over 500 ,,, but im far to gay to use that , so i will just have to trust myself that its fast ,, lol
Last edited by Mr RS500; 13-07-2013 at 02:46 PM.
13-07-2013, 03:35 PM
#47
Think i have a cossie somewhere too lol must try and find it before ford fair LOL
13-07-2013, 03:43 PM
#49
doesn't this all sound like a "my dad's harder than your dad"
even if you had a genuine 600 brake and your mate had only 400 brake, if you were the sort who never used more than 3000 rpm surely you've get spanked
think dyno's and rr's and stuff should be primarily used to make sure your engines are safe at the power they are putting out and to investigate any issues you have while it's on the road rather than "look at my graph" like it was a test at infants school
even if you had a genuine 600 brake and your mate had only 400 brake, if you were the sort who never used more than 3000 rpm surely you've get spanked
think dyno's and rr's and stuff should be primarily used to make sure your engines are safe at the power they are putting out and to investigate any issues you have while it's on the road rather than "look at my graph" like it was a test at infants school
13-07-2013, 03:52 PM
#50
doesn't this all sound like a "my dad's harder than your dad"
even if you had a genuine 600 brake and your mate had only 400 brake, if you were the sort who never used more than 3000 rpm surely you've get spanked
think dyno's and rr's and stuff should be primarily used to make sure your engines are safe at the power they are putting out and to investigate any issues you have while it's on the road rather than "look at my graph" like it was a test at infants school
even if you had a genuine 600 brake and your mate had only 400 brake, if you were the sort who never used more than 3000 rpm surely you've get spanked
think dyno's and rr's and stuff should be primarily used to make sure your engines are safe at the power they are putting out and to investigate any issues you have while it's on the road rather than "look at my graph" like it was a test at infants school
I was just pointing out bench or roller can be coned to look good so Rods statement isn completely correct
13-07-2013, 04:03 PM
#51
The bulk of our mapping work is just that, mapping work,
The cars are built by the owners or elsewhere as we don't really have the time for this type of work these days,
so in reality to us it doesn't matter at all if the car makes 20bhp or 2000bhp, it is what it is. All we are interested in is making the dyno as accurate as possible and as repeatable as possible,we certainly don't have anything to prove.
On that note our dyno is very repeatable mapping all day the temps will remain stable, it works really well,all the work and effort was well worth while
The cars are built by the owners or elsewhere as we don't really have the time for this type of work these days,
so in reality to us it doesn't matter at all if the car makes 20bhp or 2000bhp, it is what it is. All we are interested in is making the dyno as accurate as possible and as repeatable as possible,we certainly don't have anything to prove.
On that note our dyno is very repeatable mapping all day the temps will remain stable, it works really well,all the work and effort was well worth while
13-07-2013, 04:13 PM
#53
The more i use ours the more I realise how good it is, I see lots of dynos in large areas or large cells and it just wouldn't work properly it needs to be fairly small so the air can be flowed through the cell turning it over very quickly.
I've been in our dyno mapping solid days and it just works, ten runs back to back and the cell temp may change by 0.5 deg
I've been in our dyno mapping solid days and it just works, ten runs back to back and the cell temp may change by 0.5 deg
Last edited by James @ M Developments.; 13-07-2013 at 04:15 PM.
13-07-2013, 04:14 PM
#54
Gen question James
you map a car im a temp controlled enviroment , but when a car is on the road there is no temp controlled enviroment , as this obviously changes day to day , even hour on hour , so how do you decide what temp to map the car at ??
This is why i always thought the best place to map a car was actually on the road where everything is as near to reality as possible
you map a car im a temp controlled enviroment , but when a car is on the road there is no temp controlled enviroment , as this obviously changes day to day , even hour on hour , so how do you decide what temp to map the car at ??
This is why i always thought the best place to map a car was actually on the road where everything is as near to reality as possible
Last edited by Mr RS500; 13-07-2013 at 04:15 PM.
13-07-2013, 04:18 PM
#56
Gen question James
you map a car im a temp controlled enviroment , but when a car is on the road there is no temp controlled enviroment , as this obviously changes day to day , even hour on hour , so how do you decide what temp to map the car at ??
This is why i always thought the best place to map a car was actually on the road where everything is as near to reality as possible
you map a car im a temp controlled enviroment , but when a car is on the road there is no temp controlled enviroment , as this obviously changes day to day , even hour on hour , so how do you decide what temp to map the car at ??
This is why i always thought the best place to map a car was actually on the road where everything is as near to reality as possible
It would be possible but very very hard to produce a full temp controlled environment as the air turn over has to be so great for the cell to remain cool and stable
We also still do some of the mapping out on the road,
Last edited by James @ M Developments.; 13-07-2013 at 04:23 PM.
13-07-2013, 04:20 PM
#57
I have very limited knowlage of mapping , but was always told ( and makes sence to me ) that mapping out on the road where reality is , is the best way , But im always open to be told thats not the case , hence my gen questions regards Dyno cells etc
Last edited by Mr RS500; 13-07-2013 at 04:24 PM.
13-07-2013, 04:25 PM
#59
Run a 600bhp car in a closed room at full chat for 30 seconds, let alone 5 hours and see the heat it makes mate.
Keeping our cell temp stable is very important and it does a very good job of it.
On the road the car is moving, not sat still in a workshop, so heat isn't really an issue out there
Keeping our cell temp stable is very important and it does a very good job of it.
On the road the car is moving, not sat still in a workshop, so heat isn't really an issue out there
13-07-2013, 04:27 PM
#61
Run a 600bhp car in a closed room at full chat for 30 seconds, let alone 5 hours and see the heat it makes mate.
Keeping our cell temp stable is very important and it does a very good job of it.
On the road the car is moving, not sat still in a workshop, so heat isn't really an issue out there
Keeping our cell temp stable is very important and it does a very good job of it.
On the road the car is moving, not sat still in a workshop, so heat isn't really an issue out there
I do understand why your room is kept cool ,, im not that thick ( some wouldnt agree ) but again this isnt reality ?
Am i correct in thinking that nothing is better than reality ,,ie ,, mapping on the road in real conditions , with real loads on the car etc ,,BUT,, as this isnt always possible then a dyno cell is the next best thing ? and as you say you sometimes map on the road anyway , i presume to just be 100% your happy
Last edited by Mr RS500; 13-07-2013 at 04:30 PM.
13-07-2013, 04:28 PM
#62
Unless you can replicate the air flow in a cell which is what ours does. We have no heat issues at all. It remains constant at outside temp, just like driving on the road but on a big treadmill
The dyno is a fantastic tool if used correctly, it does things you can't do on the road, and likewise there are things you also struggle to do on the dyno, which is why we generally do both dyno and road mapping
The dyno is a fantastic tool if used correctly, it does things you can't do on the road, and likewise there are things you also struggle to do on the dyno, which is why we generally do both dyno and road mapping
Last edited by James @ M Developments.; 13-07-2013 at 04:33 PM.
13-07-2013, 04:34 PM
#63
But doesnt outside temp change the faster you go ,ie, the faster you go the cooler the air hitting the car is due to volume of air ???
And also the faster the car goes the hotter it gets , so again there has to be slight variables on the road that a cell cant produce ,,or am i barking up the wrong tree ??
Ill chack back later as im going out for a big fat steak now , and im very interested to hear if im way out on what i have always belived
Last edited by Mr RS500; 13-07-2013 at 04:35 PM.
13-07-2013, 04:38 PM
#64
The ambient temp on the road won't change enough to worry about unless you are going so fast you can hit different climate conditions, ie leave blackpool and drive to Dubai.in 10 mins.
then you might hit some ambient changes fast enough to notice.
For most of us the M55 is the same temp between junctions
Engines get hotter if they are working harder, thats no different in the cell, its physics,
but just as it would be outside on the road the ambient remains stable in the cell.
The car would have to produce a hell of a lot of heat, and warm the world up if it had an effect on ambient temp the road
My point is on the road if I drive a cossie hard from blackpool to Preston the ambient temps will be pretty much the same no matter how hard i drive or how much heat I make, I can't warm this area up no matter how hard I try
It would be pointless running a car on the dyno starting at 25 degrees but after 2 runs its now 40 degrees in there as that simply doesn't happen on the road.
Ours remains stable at outside ambient temp which is pretty good going, it also means the air flow though the cell is fast enough to keep it clean from exhaust gasses as well as things like intercooler,engine, and transmission cooling as close to road conditions as possible
then you might hit some ambient changes fast enough to notice.
For most of us the M55 is the same temp between junctions
Engines get hotter if they are working harder, thats no different in the cell, its physics,
but just as it would be outside on the road the ambient remains stable in the cell.
The car would have to produce a hell of a lot of heat, and warm the world up if it had an effect on ambient temp the road
My point is on the road if I drive a cossie hard from blackpool to Preston the ambient temps will be pretty much the same no matter how hard i drive or how much heat I make, I can't warm this area up no matter how hard I try
It would be pointless running a car on the dyno starting at 25 degrees but after 2 runs its now 40 degrees in there as that simply doesn't happen on the road.
Ours remains stable at outside ambient temp which is pretty good going, it also means the air flow though the cell is fast enough to keep it clean from exhaust gasses as well as things like intercooler,engine, and transmission cooling as close to road conditions as possible
Last edited by James @ M Developments.; 13-07-2013 at 05:22 PM.
13-07-2013, 05:09 PM
#66
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
the dyno will always read the same power fro the wheels, but it just corrects the amount it shows by a calculation due to the air temp
13-07-2013, 05:31 PM
#67
Advanced PassionFord User
But even when mapped on the road in "reality" its going to be different from one day to the next so surley in that case its never going to be correct if you look at it like that?
13-07-2013, 05:55 PM
#68
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that is the whole point of the sae/din correction it brings the output figure to an industry standard that removes the temperature variable, the only problem is it then leaves an element open to manipulation.
as far as dyno accuracy goes I know for a fact a dynapack can and will give accurate figures as ive got the dyno plots and the performance data that verifies it.
13-07-2013, 05:57 PM
#69
What James is trying to convey Is this.
Our cell moves between 25 and 40 thousand Cubic feet of air per minute from outside the cell, through it and back out again, turning the whole cell over for fresh every 4 seconds. This is done so that the cell remains at the SAME temperature as the outside ambient temp, so if its 26c outside, it's 26c in our cell. You can see this in the video where the air probe is on the cell wall a foot from the engine bay. with a 500bhp engine screaming away plus exhaust, transmission, tyres and retarders all pumping out huge heat only a couple of feel away, the cell temp and air temp remain the same as outside... 26c.
So yes, if its 26c outside on Wednesday but 38c outside on Thursday, the mapping will be done in different conditions technically, but it wouldn't make any odds temperature wise if you did It on the road or in our cell as our cell is maintained at exactly the same temperature as it is outside my workshops front door. This remains the same for any testing by anyone and is exactly the reason the correction standards exist. An engine really DOES produce different power on different days, in different weather and even in different towns and countries.
This is why I have invested so much time and money in the cell itself (far more than the cost of the dyno) because without serious airflow, a dyno's repeatability is pretty damn poor and that's no good to me as we use it for far more than just power runs. I need to simulate hills and fuel economy improvements as well as diagnostics on weird and wonderful faults, and for that I need it to be as close to a real road as possible which is why it's taken me so damn long to get one. The investment in dyno alone would never have made me happy - I needed a custom built cell to go with it and make it all work properly.
This is why OEM's calibrate the cells in fully automated climatic chambers where they can take the car from Saudi Arabia to the North Pole in under 2 minutes. They can also simulate rain in the same cell to test the effects of humidity and more mundane stuff like wiper control etc. will find a vid, it's awesome. NOTHING anyone can do is as accurate as OEM'S development cells.
Our cell moves between 25 and 40 thousand Cubic feet of air per minute from outside the cell, through it and back out again, turning the whole cell over for fresh every 4 seconds. This is done so that the cell remains at the SAME temperature as the outside ambient temp, so if its 26c outside, it's 26c in our cell. You can see this in the video where the air probe is on the cell wall a foot from the engine bay. with a 500bhp engine screaming away plus exhaust, transmission, tyres and retarders all pumping out huge heat only a couple of feel away, the cell temp and air temp remain the same as outside... 26c.
So yes, if its 26c outside on Wednesday but 38c outside on Thursday, the mapping will be done in different conditions technically, but it wouldn't make any odds temperature wise if you did It on the road or in our cell as our cell is maintained at exactly the same temperature as it is outside my workshops front door. This remains the same for any testing by anyone and is exactly the reason the correction standards exist. An engine really DOES produce different power on different days, in different weather and even in different towns and countries.
This is why I have invested so much time and money in the cell itself (far more than the cost of the dyno) because without serious airflow, a dyno's repeatability is pretty damn poor and that's no good to me as we use it for far more than just power runs. I need to simulate hills and fuel economy improvements as well as diagnostics on weird and wonderful faults, and for that I need it to be as close to a real road as possible which is why it's taken me so damn long to get one. The investment in dyno alone would never have made me happy - I needed a custom built cell to go with it and make it all work properly.
This is why OEM's calibrate the cells in fully automated climatic chambers where they can take the car from Saudi Arabia to the North Pole in under 2 minutes. They can also simulate rain in the same cell to test the effects of humidity and more mundane stuff like wiper control etc. will find a vid, it's awesome. NOTHING anyone can do is as accurate as OEM'S development cells.
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 13-07-2013 at 06:02 PM.
13-07-2013, 06:01 PM
#70
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In the extreme, if MSD mapped a car on thurday in bone dry conditions and 30°C, then went out to test it on Friday and it was wet & 5°C due to a sudden cold snap, then it would be very hard to tell if the improvements in performance were down to the mapping changes or just much more favourable atmospheric conditons...
With a controlled enviroment, ie the cell being kept at a constant 20°C, you can quantify the changes you have made against a standard set of figures, as you know that the improvements are down to mapping and not just much more colder, dense air.
The ECU will compensate for changes in air temp & pressure, by using modifier tables that are bought into play by the air flow meter/ air charge temp sensor & Map sensor etc.
With regards to the DYNO air temp sensor, that is trying to provide a calculation to correct the power figures to the conditions on the day.
Some simple figures here for illustration, not anything real:
For example:
An engine tested on a Dyno makes 400BHP at 15°C at 1013Mb (millibars) air pressure, at sea level.
The same engine is now tested at 0°C, at 1030Mb at sea level. You would expect the engine to make more power, say 450BHP due to colder, denser air.
The engines efficiency has not changed, no internal or external components have been changed, but due to the simple fact that an engine is an air pump, by having more air (colder, higher pressure air, hence more dense at the intake) means it moves more air per cycle than in the first test at 15°C at 1013Mb.
Take the same engine up a big hill, to say 5000ft above sea level, on a really hot day....
The conditions are now +30°C, with an air pressure of 990Mb...
It now "only" makes 350BHP, as the air at the intake is really hot, and really thin! So again, no internal or external components have been changed, but per cycle, there is far less air to move due to the heat/density than at the first test, and far, far less than the second test.
In all three examples, the engine is the same, but gives very different figures on the same dyno purely down to external atmospheric condions...
The point of the Dyno air temp & pressure sensors are to allow the computer to apply a "correction factor" to the conditions of the day, so theoretically, if the said 400Bhp engine is tested in any of the above scenarios, or in any conditions anywhere in the world, it will read 400Bhp on the dyno, as the computer is comparing the actual conditions on the day to the "ideal" conditons that it uses as a base for all calculations, as in the first example.
13-07-2013, 06:05 PM
#71
For example:
An engine tested on a Dyno makes 400BHP at 15°C at 1013Mb (millibars) air pressure, at sea level.
The same engine is now tested at 0°C, at 1030Mb at sea level. You would expect the engine to make more power, say 450BHP due to colder, denser air.
The engines efficiency has not changed, no internal or external components have been changed, but due to the simple fact that an engine is an air pump, by having more air (colder, higher pressure air, hence more dense at the intake) means it moves more air per cycle than in the first test at 15°C at 1013Mb.
Take the same engine up a big hill, to say 5000ft above sea level, on a really hot day....
The conditions are now +30°C, with an air pressure of 990Mb...
It now "only" makes 350BHP, as the air at the intake is really hot, and really thin! So again, no internal or external components have been changed, but per cycle, there is far less air to move due to the heat/density than at the first test, and far, far less than the second test.
In all three examples, the engine is the same, but gives very different figures on the same dyno purely down to external atmospheric condions...
The point of the Dyno air temp & pressure sensors are to allow the computer to apply a "correction factor" to the conditions of the day, so theoretically, if the said 400Bhp engine is tested in any of the above scenarios, or in any conditions anywhere in the world, it will read 400Bhp on the dyno, as the computer is comparing the actual conditions on the day to the "ideal" conditons that it uses as a base for all calculations, as in the first example.
13-07-2013, 06:31 PM
#72
PassionFord Regular
Am i correct to say the ambient temperature is not the temperature the engine gets because the turbo will heat the air and the intercooler will cool it down. So that would be the temperature you have to correct to. Then you get the same as a NA engine.
13-07-2013, 07:05 PM
#74
Advanced PassionFord User
It is interesting indeed.
I remember a dyno day at a place that will go un named where the participants and crowd had to stand in a room with a window the the side, the engine bay itself was not actually in view, there was a competition to see who's car was the most higher than standard... and the car that won had actually been tuned at that garage. Coincedentally all of the cars tuned there came higher than the rest.
Maybe really coincedentally now I understand how easy it is to mess with the figures!
I remember a dyno day at a place that will go un named where the participants and crowd had to stand in a room with a window the the side, the engine bay itself was not actually in view, there was a competition to see who's car was the most higher than standard... and the car that won had actually been tuned at that garage. Coincedentally all of the cars tuned there came higher than the rest.
Maybe really coincedentally now I understand how easy it is to mess with the figures!
13-07-2013, 08:05 PM
#75
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Thing is with a thread like this it just brings into focus that there is another set of people in this world you cant trust ,Id like to get a remap after iv done all the bolt on's but who the hell can you trust to do this ? I dont even take my car in for tyres anymore just the wheels cos some twat on my other car jacked in the wrong place an pushed up the sill so sick of this kind of thing !
13-07-2013, 09:08 PM
#77
Our cold side is pumped straight from outside we aim to keep our internal cell temp at the same level as the outside temp. Doing that with anything up to 2400bhp on there was a challenge as the heat produced is crazy!
It would be possible but very very hard to produce a full temp controlled environment as the air turn over has to be so great for the cell to remain cool and stable
We also still do some of the mapping out on the road,
It would be possible but very very hard to produce a full temp controlled environment as the air turn over has to be so great for the cell to remain cool and stable
We also still do some of the mapping out on the road,
eariler on someones said that the tempratures were set and then if the tempratures were higher it was corected to give that figure, so won't that work just the same in the ecu when it's out on the road being hot and cold
or am i thinking of just the dyno stuff and in the real world this correction factor donest work on normal ecus?
surely the car would know that it';s operating at 50 degrees and be mapped for 50 degrees and if its working at 10 degrese its mapped to work and 10 degrees?
so the map can;t just be "mapped" for one set temprature range?
yes?no? to comlicated to answer at this time of night in just one post?
cheers
13-07-2013, 09:09 PM
#78
Thanks for the info Stu
For a novice like me your reply makes good sence
Every day is a learning day
I may be a very good looking fella but my brain is always trying to absorbe more info , so im not perfect ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,just not far of ,, lol
For a novice like me your reply makes good sence
Every day is a learning day
I may be a very good looking fella but my brain is always trying to absorbe more info , so im not perfect ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,just not far of ,, lol
13-07-2013, 09:30 PM
#79
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 13-07-2013 at 09:37 PM.
13-07-2013, 09:32 PM
#80
I've found that life I needed.. It's HERE!!
Dont for get theres other ways to change the power.
Biggest one these days is the correction for average air temps and the most companys that do this is companys thay dont have a power figure with and without the correction. Ie just printing wheel bhp flywheel bhp and torque but do say correction sas456ytgf (something like that) but no figures.
Biggest one these days is the correction for average air temps and the most companys that do this is companys thay dont have a power figure with and without the correction. Ie just printing wheel bhp flywheel bhp and torque but do say correction sas456ytgf (something like that) but no figures.