Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

Have they had copyright issues lately?

They seem to have changed the inlet design from a blatent hart copy to a smoothed version:

Gadget

No,
It is just a slightly revised design and a new batch!

lacey

The hart one must have been revised and they must have thought , we can knock off another idea that is someone else's
Lol

ajamesc

Must just be a cosmetic thing as they don't design things lol so wouldn't be able to say it aids air flow as its not copied off anyone lol

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

But why would they revise the design when there was nothing wrong with the old one??

Businesses dont just up and change a design unless theres money in it.

Especially as we are talking about a cast product so its not exactly super cheap to change.

Which makes me think theyve done it to head off copyright issues.

Paul_RS

iTrader: (4)

Has anyone ever proven these things actually work?

lacey

It's a copy of the hart one which does work ,
To change the pattern for looks , such as what they have done would be fairly cheap .
To pay back the man they stole the design/item from would cost them 1000,s

Canada1

Unless the Hart design has some "proprietary" intellectual property in the design that had a patent issued on it - copies are certainly not against the law - or subject to any lawsuits.
Unless UK law is vastly different than Canadian or USA laws.

Look at all the different dual Weber inlet manifolds - all are nearly the same, but copies of some original.

I could hardly imagine the cost of auto parts if no one could make a copy (or close copy) of an original design. There would be only one piston manufacturer with a monopoly, one camshaft grinder etc...

How many of the Cossie guys buy original Cosworth cams? BD10, BD14 etc. are all copied by several camshaft grinders.

charlie luciano

iTrader: (3)

Irrespective of wether the Hart had a patent on it or not its well out of order to take someone's product that they have taken time and spent money on to develop and make cheap shitty copies, where I come from that's called biting and is out of order, at the end of he day create and develop your own shit

Like the Mona Lisa there's been untold copies but there is only one true original

My understanding of this whole Hart plenum thing is there was some sort of legal action, is this cosmetic change a result of that action I don't know

Luciano

xr2wishy

iTrader: (2)

whilst i agree respectfully, i can understand why someone would copy it.
if auto specialists could make it for less, why couldn't the original manufacturer do the same, once you've flogged a few to cover development to motorsport, then you can retail them off for less and less over time. asking a premium for it's entire life of a product makes it a target for copying.

charlie luciano

iTrader: (3)

Nice 1 mate I respect you view, I tbh done that with one of my own products, started it off at a price and then was able to reduce it once I had recouped the initial cost of the tooling, I have to say though a couple of well known people in and around scene advised against doing that


Luciano

ajamesc

They tried to rip the spec r intercooler off too but didn't use the bit that makes it any good lol
So other than looking the same they failed

lacey

If it was over priced to start with then yes , but I was not so no .
Also
you make a item
You sell the item for x
You have now sold 20 items
You drop the price to y
You now have pissed off 20 people

Word of mouth is one of the best forms of advertising
Also when mike developed the hart item it took a long time to get right
And that is very costly to a company

Moonstone Steve.

iTrader: (2)

I have one on mine so time will tell.

Has the intercooler been proved to be shit then mate, seems ok on Wennys old bus and that gets some abuse

Steve

ajamesc

I read on here in a post from jimbo that scs tested it back to back and it was good till about 500bhp then dose not compare to the cooling or recovery abilitys of the spec r one with the garret core
I'm don't think it was as good at recovering or cooling up to the 500bhp mark iver

WENNY

my car runs there inlet, intercooler, rad, fans, hoses, so does warrens time attack esc cos, same as rons 3 door
mine made 700 bhp as did warrens and his has been done for over 2 year, so ide say there tryed and tested to be fair, if someone shows me back to back testes of any better product not just airtec`s ide like to see the results so i can try them
cheers

Moonstone Steve.

iTrader: (2)

Fair enough mate, I must of missed that write up from Jim.

Steve

ajamesc

I'm not saying the inlet is no good as its an exact copy so will be the same! Plus the cooler will work as a cooler is a cooler too a certian point at the end of the day!
Just it doesn't cool or recover as well / fast it will still do the job it was made to do just not as well so it seems
Anyone who says there be the same as they look the same must have there head in the sand lol as I'm sure the people who designed it m.a.d and spec r did there resurch and as there both top in there fields I'm sure the resurch was good or they wouldn't pay 700 odd pounds just for the core lol

WENNY

i know mate, its just life, everything good gets coppied unless patend

cossynut2

I have just had one of the smooth polished ones fitted to my 2wd Sapphire along with other upgrades including Siemens 83lb injectors and a CR turbos T38 with billet compressor wheel. The product looks good but was a bitch to fit, its not a 5 miute job as Richard and Malcom at Tremona Garage found out!! The car is booked in for a rolling road set-up at Power Engineering on Thursday so I will find out what it does then.
Cossynut2.

cossie4i+

iTrader: (15)

I hope all goes well for you on Thursday.

Still waiting for pictures of your car lol

Steve

cossynut2

Hi Steve , I will get around to taking some new photos of my Saff, the engine bay looks spot-on now, I am looking forward to seeing what sort of power it will make now. Once again thanks for your help last week and thanks to Marc for the great loom.
Cheers Richard.

KSA-Cossie

iTrader: (4)

I'll be interested in your figures as you're spec is close to mine, but I have ported head and BD 16 inlet

botters

iTrader: (2)

what are the threads like on the as manifold as ive seen many people slagging the hart one for having chocolate threads

Miller 3

iTrader: (4)

Iv had both and the threads on,the as ones are much better.

Rod-Tarry

I was asked to research the Garrett cores & find the most efficient core that could get the max air through it , bought the first two. Its as efficient as a £600+ core can be if you have £3000 to spend on a core there are far better ones (not Garrett). Im sure Wenny is correct in saying his is fine for his application but try 35 secs at 100% WOT & the results would not be so good thats what tests the cores efficiency.
At 840bhp it makes all the difference the results were so good on mine they were not believed on this Forum ( Its Thicker/larger than the normal SpecR) . I believe Jimbo changed his mind once he tried it .

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

from what i remember that was the 70mm core not the 100mm like wennys, and concidering its £275 and not £750+vat its not expected to be as good, you get what you pay for at the end of the day

if i had the moeny i would buy the spec r but i would never need that much cooling as im a poor family man lol

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

I wonder if AS would be upset if i copied thier inlet in carbon?

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

its not an exact copy so no copy rights there

botters

iTrader: (2)

no but you would be if it exploded like the mis carbon ones do lol

stevieturbo

So you only buy Ford parts for your Ford, and absolutely nothing else, because one way or another any replacement part would just be a copy to some degree ?

Psycho Warren

iTrader: (5)

I intend to have mine a bit beefyier than that!! Over engineer it compared to the alloy one - should still be a fair bit lighter due to material properties anyway.

WENNY

not many people have 840bhp and are holding flatout for as long as you rod, mine is perfect for what i do and warrens for every track in the uk weve ever raced at, but like i say im always looking for better

stevieturbo

While totally off topic regarding inlet manifolds.

The Yanks seem to heavily favour vertical flow IC builds. It does almost seem counter productive, but a lot of guys are more than adamant they out perform horizontal stuff by a big margin.

Visually they will have far more tubes for air to flow through, albeit shorter. But actual internal area is often far far larger than a horizontal unit which means far less restriction and airflow slows down a lot more through the unit, and hence cools better.

IMO they just look like they wouldnt work was well...but apparently they work far better.

ie, this style

xr2wishy

iTrader: (2)

i did say sell the first ones to motorsport teams who will pay well for the best on the market, especially if it's not publicly available.
i would find it hard to believe that they would be annoyed if after a season the man on the street is able to lay their hands on one.
many top spec items start out like that and end up being copied.
patents on specific use of parts or design is the only way and to enforce it can cost a fortune, the chinese will copy almost anything after all

lacey

I done a lot of research into this when I designed/made my I/c and it has far more pro,s than con,s , main reason being shorter tubes can = more of / shorter tubes carry less heat= better cooling .

But there is a mod or two that can be done to increase performance of the 500 I/c by 30 to 40%

J1mbo

iTrader: (1)

When mapping gav diamonds car I monitored acts and found by fourth gear on a 15degree day tops the acts were climbing to 45degrees, by the top of fourth and fifth gear it wasn't acceptable

My own car has the same turbo and air box set up and running the same boost so intercooler intake temps from the turbo should be very similar.
My car runs a bar and plate garret cored pro alloy cooler. Same as the spec r and on a hotter day the temps didn't go over 35degrees and recovery was so much better.

The spec r cooler on a t4 powered car is deffinately better than the airtec in my finding.

However. I do beleive the t4 intercooler intake temps are exceptionally high as the compressor wheel is quite far out of its efficiency range and is creating alot of heat. So with a different spec engine it might be fine past the 550bhp mark

rsmark86

iTrader: (3)

if people dont want things copied then cant they have tem copie righted?

anyway im all for getting something £200 cheaper that works they same

cossynut2

I have also got a group A spec cylinder head, BD10 AND BD12 cams, Lightenened flywheel,wasted spark ignition,RS 500 intercooler, pre turbo cooler, big core alloy radiator, low comp, 200 block with balaced bottom end and a Bosch 044 fuel pump. I will let you know what it makes after Thursday.

lacey

When you design something and sale it your product automatically gets I P Rights which are a little bit open in what and how they cover the item but they can bit coping company's in the arse which is what the hart item has and these I p r,s is why the man behind the hart item was looking into bumming the A S people , but I am not sure how he is/has got on.
I found out about the in,s and outs of I p r,s when a company said I made a item that did not exist and there is a lot involved and they can intitle you to take everything ( money/patterns/produce so on) from the person that has copied you.

If you patend something it can still be copied as long as it is 10% different , hence the more parts of your item you protect the harder it is to copy .
Also this protection on a item is not for ever and in some cases may only last 10 years

If a item has been on the market for many years then no one gives a monkeys about someone copying but the hart item was new to the market that's what was wrong about A S coping it .