Chip

iTrader: (3)

I think if running a really harsh pad and then using the brakes very hard, the disks im running at the moment would warp for sure, but as its only trackdays im doing im not massively hard on the brakes like you would be in a race, so hopefully if I can get a bit of heat out via some ducting of cold air in, I will hopefully be ok.


Nevsrevs, cheers for taking the time to post your pics, roughly the same as I am planning other than the bit where it gets to the brakes themselves.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Had a decent look at the weekend and the logistics of attaching a cooling duct to the hub isnt looking promising, is the amount of distance it moves during steering that is the problemm it moves about a foot and it gets to within a few inches of the bottom pulley so the pipe is going to have to continually compress and expand between a short compressed size and about 300% as long when steering the other way.
Normal ducting could easily end up bending into the shaft if I do that.

Might try and just attach to the bottom wishbone pointing at the middle of the disk as best I can initially and see from how I get on if its worth trying the other way or not.

stevieturbo

You need to develop a huge fan blade to sit inside the wheel and draw air through it.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Lol, yeah that would do it.

TBH I think just the pad change is probably going to sort me out anyway, so will see how it is when im out next before deciding where to go next, seems like the simplest (although not cheapest) option might be some decent curved vane disks if its not good enough now.

Jay,

iTrader: (4)

Chip there is no cheap fix for this it blatently obvious if you want to carry on with the power you have

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Will see when Im next out Jay, dont forget it wasnt too far off good enough before on just yellowstuff pads.
House move appears to be happening now hopefully based on feedback from the chain, so car will be on the back burner for a couple of months anyway.

Ginge !

I honestly recommend trying sintered pads if it pad fade you are getting,,, sintered pads don't have pad fade at all but are very sharp

Also my missus family work at general mogal (ferodo ) and I'm asking one of them to get some pad info for me for impreza so I might get some real tech help from there team,,, or the other factory in India lol

Chip

iTrader: (3)

The problem with pads that dont fade, is the disks get too hot and warp then, thats what was happening on the old 280mm disks with pagid blue pads, I had no fade, but it kept wrecking disks, like literally in a day if you used it really hard.

Again, better disks probably the answer for that, so if I get that issue on the ds2500, I will have no choice but to put my hand in my pocket for 500 quid of disks or whatever.
Not the end of the world, but would have been nicer to get away with 70 quid ones! lol

alistairolsen

Why are the disks warping? Generally it's a total myth and its due to pad deposits or uneven heating when you stop, meaning you probably need to cool them more before coming in.

stevieturbo

I think the pad deposits is more of a myth, as Ive had discs that were warped completely stupid !

Ginge !

Heat cycles do warps discs,,, admittedly most road driving is puddles or binding calipers but track use gives heat cycles too

Brake ducts obv are the try then if pad fade use sintered pads or if disc then floating bells


If your not hard on brakes then its got to be ventilation due to wheels and heat transfer though I fear it's a mix and 300bhp is a lot to ask of a 280 disc and sliding calliper

Next issue will be the front brakes kicking in the ABS like my impreza due to locking the odd wheel

Ps: I have enjoyed this thread,,,, listening to people's ideas ect just like the old days

foreigneRS

it shouldn't matter how hot a disc gets - as long as it is heated and cooled evenly it shouldn't warp.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I would imagine cause they arent seeing even temperatures at some point, possibly from stuff like when sessions get red flagged and you have to stop suddenly etc.


Ive spoken to a guy on the Clio forum who sources a lot brakes for people and he reckons that the EBC Gold disks are actually of decent construction and have curved vanes in them and will cool significantly better than the cheapy ones I have on there at the moment.
Only about 160 quid a pair, and available in exactly the fitment I am using currently, so well worth a go before committing myself to 500+ in bell and rotor ones I reckon.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Indeed, 280mm was never going to be enough on just a normal disk, maybe if it was on a really well designed and thick 2 piece.

Ive bought a clio cup non ABS setup to fit at some point.

PF still has it when it needs to

stevieturbo

On a track though, you have no real control over how it gets heated or cooled. That's dictated by the track itself, and the driver. But no easy way to actually control it.

foreigneRS

that appears to be a contradiction to me on a trackday, you can easily decide how early/late and how hard you want to brake and therefore control your brake temperatures.

all Chip has to do in reality is brake earlier and not as hard and maybe not accelerate as hard as possible and he wouldn't have a problem - but where's the fun in that?

stevieturbo

Without a live temperature monitor...you still dont know what they are though in order to try to control them.

And you still have no solid way of controlling them from cold-glowing-cold again. The only thing you can be sure of, is they will get heated up a hell of a lot faster than they will cool down.

foreigneRS

true dat

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Also the red flag thing is a big issue, I always make sure I do a cool down lap (or perhaps half lap if I am out at bedford on the full circuit as its so long) but if you get suddenly brought to a halt on a red flag you have no option but to sit with red hot brakes while you are stationary

Like here:

Im driving at trackday pace and then suddenly have to come to an unexpected halt and then was sat there for 10 mins or so while they cleared up wreckage off the track from a crash.

nevsrevs

I will let you know how we get on Tomo with the new cl rc6
Since we are running a similar set up.

xr-stu

chip i havnt read all the way through so dont know if its been covered in more depth, but i was going to sugest water cooling, noticed it was mentioned on the first page. sounds outlandish but its common, if not std practice on racing trucks. dont know if youve ever noticed clouds of steam coming from the front wheels off trucks on track?



i spoke to a chap at outlon a couple of years ago who ran one of these types of trucks with the water cooling, iirc the water is fed inside the disk between the two braking surfaces from the centre and is turned to steam and flung through the vents and out of the edges of the disc. its something ive thought about having a play with, would be mega cheap and easy to install a basic setup and just see how it goes. could easily just get a decent size washer bottle, some copper pipe and cobble something together as a trial. not really that nessecary on a 125bhp puma but on your clio it might be worthwhile in my opinion.

CrOwSoN15

So it seems like the solution is, people need to stop crashing?

Fascinating thread, really enjoyed reading this.

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Thats interesting XR-Stu.

Might be worth considering, although tricky to know what strategy to use to activate it.

I guess brake lights would be simpest way, but obviously the problem with that is the time you need to cool them most is probably just before you start to brake not when you are actually braking as by then its kind of too late if the disks are too hot already from the last application of the brakes.

Ginge !

Have you seem the size water tanks the trucks use though, chip you was at bhp the other week you might have seen the 6 water tanks and the water trail they left driving off the track

I ain't sure if its to regulate the disc temp to reduce warp due to stupid heat cycles a big lorry would give must warp discs rather than cooling the pads

The size of the tank is the issue though I would have thought

Ginge !

Chip the trucks are cooled constantly with water all the time

stevieturbo

It's a bloody Clio, not a several ton truck !! lol

Chip

iTrader: (3)

I suspect trackday organisers might object to me spraying water all over their apex points too. Lol.

Will see how I get on with the new pads and some ducts. Hopefully will be enough anyway.

stevieturbo

The water should never see any further than the brake disc itself though, and it would only be a very fine spray, much like water injection for the engine.

But spraying water onto a red hot surface will of course have a negative side too.

I think the keeping it simple solution is the best.

Ginge !

Have you see the trucks come off track ?

stevieturbo

Are you asking if Ive seen trucks crash ? Of course I have. How is that relevant ?

Ginge !

http://www.willallracing.com.au/gtrbrakes.htm

This is quite interesting and I'm sure you could write a program to measure speed ect

Might be a interesting idea

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Certainly would need to be done a lot cheaper than that if i was going to consider it, lol.

But one thing is certain, and thats water WOULD drop the temps of the disk, its incredible at mopping up heat.

stevieturbo

Most simple form would be a pump, couple of small water injection nozzles and turn the pump off/on based on brake pressure via a pressure switch.

Simple brake switch would be doable too, but would spray more often.

Or get a relay/switch based on roadspeed and brake pedal input.

Would be lots of trial and error as usual though

Ginge !

You should first use thermal paint though to measure the disc temps though

xr-stu

The trucks might pump gallons of water through their brakes but I don't think you'll need that amount on the Clio. Should be able to rig up a relay to activate them while the pedal is pressed (brake light) then stay on for a few seconds afterwards. Just like on a lot of cars when you press the windscreen washer switch the wipers will stay on and so 3 or 4 sweeps of the screen afterwards. Same principle. Not sure how those circuits work but you may even be able to pikey something using an existing relay or a scrapyard job.

foreigneRS

that is mostly done these days through logic programmed in to the ecu that controls everything via CAN, but it can be done with a hardware timer relay

Chip

iTrader: (3)

Could try and get techy with it and use an IR heat input to trigger the water as well I guess.

Still hoping not to need it though, lol

Ginge !

Or rather than washer jets what about deodorant nossles