Brake disk/pad cooling
07-05-2013, 10:56 PM
#41
I toyed with the idea of using 12 Volt axial fans to blow air onto my brakes via ducting. You can get 90 CFM fans which are 80 mm, such as http://www.ecdrives.com/fans/axial-fans/DC-8032.html. These could be triggered by the brake light switch and a run on timer to force air to the discs.
07-05-2013, 11:39 PM
#42
Not entirely sane
Any ram air effect is negligible below 150 mph so the flow will not be great at all. The pressure gain at 150 mph is realistically only 2%, at 75 mph it will be as low as 0.5%. If absolute ambient air pressure is 14.7 psi then at 75 mph you will only get a pressure increase of 0.07 psi, not a fat lot of flow even in a huge diameter duct. The fan I mentioned will give a static pressure of 0.32 psi with the car stationary, so the flow will be 67 times higher.
07-05-2013, 11:47 PM
#43
I'd be looking at the pads personally. It makes me wince spending over Ł450 on a full set for the Evo, but since fitting Carbotech pads (mentioned earlier by Fast Guy) I've had zero brake problems.
XP10 is the compound my brother and I run.
I do understand trying to make the current set up optimum, but pads would be a big step change. IMHO 2500s are a fast road pad at best. My brother ran 3000s with positive results on his 205, although I appreciate his 15" wheels where only connected to 150 bhp not 300
I'd love to try a CL or Pagid pad, but I go with what I know - Carbotech XP10s FTW
XP10 is the compound my brother and I run.
I do understand trying to make the current set up optimum, but pads would be a big step change. IMHO 2500s are a fast road pad at best. My brother ran 3000s with positive results on his 205, although I appreciate his 15" wheels where only connected to 150 bhp not 300
I'd love to try a CL or Pagid pad, but I go with what I know - Carbotech XP10s FTW
08-05-2013, 05:53 AM
#45
Any ram air effect is negligible below 150 mph so the flow will not be great at all. The pressure gain at 150 mph is realistically only 2%, at 75 mph it will be as low as 0.5%. If absolute ambient air pressure is 14.7 psi then at 75 mph you will only get a pressure increase of 0.07 psi, not a fat lot of flow even in a huge diameter duct. The fan I mentioned will give a static pressure of 0.32 psi with the car stationary, so the flow will be 67 times higher.
can you show me a serious example of it being used for this application? I've not seen it before in this context and I can't think why not if it works so well?
Last edited by Chip; 08-05-2013 at 06:09 AM.
08-05-2013, 06:38 AM
#46
Advanced PassionFord User
Any ram air effect is negligible below 150 mph so the flow will not be great at all. The pressure gain at 150 mph is realistically only 2%, at 75 mph it will be as low as 0.5%. If absolute ambient air pressure is 14.7 psi then at 75 mph you will only get a pressure increase of 0.07 psi, not a fat lot of flow even in a huge diameter duct. The fan I mentioned will give a static pressure of 0.32 psi with the car stationary, so the flow will be 67 times higher.
Pressure gain is a function not only of the front of the car (as anyone with a splitter who actually knows what it does) but also the entrance to the duct, so quoting numbers like you have is utter bollocks.
moving on to the fan, as chip says, it may mention 90cfm and 0.32psi, but I very much doubt it will do both at the same time, that's a lot of power!
08-05-2013, 08:52 AM
#47
Agreed, you cant possibly generalise on the pressure you will get as its dependant on the size and shape of frontal area of the car and how much of it is vented or not, even at 50mph if you have a small hole in a large flat object the wind rushing through it will do so at a hundreds of miles an hour and with enourmous pressure.
At my parents gaff they have a house that is sat widthways on with a gate in the middle and a double garage at the side of that and a wall at the side of that, when the wind blows in the right direction even gently if you open the gate its a massive rush of wind down the alley between the house and garage as its the only place it can get through, but if you stood to the other side of the house on the pavement you would feel next to nothing.
So its as much about the object that the hole is in as it is about the hole itself.
Even silly things a lot of people wouldnt think of like lowering the car will effect it as then less air can get underneath it so more will try and force through the foglight hole etc.
If there is an equation for it, then it would have a LOT of variables in it, including things like the construction of the existing radiator and wether or not you have he sealing rubber strip at the back of the bonnet etc, as all these things will effect the other routes the air displaced can take to get out of the cars way.
At my parents gaff they have a house that is sat widthways on with a gate in the middle and a double garage at the side of that and a wall at the side of that, when the wind blows in the right direction even gently if you open the gate its a massive rush of wind down the alley between the house and garage as its the only place it can get through, but if you stood to the other side of the house on the pavement you would feel next to nothing.
So its as much about the object that the hole is in as it is about the hole itself.
Even silly things a lot of people wouldnt think of like lowering the car will effect it as then less air can get underneath it so more will try and force through the foglight hole etc.
If there is an equation for it, then it would have a LOT of variables in it, including things like the construction of the existing radiator and wether or not you have he sealing rubber strip at the back of the bonnet etc, as all these things will effect the other routes the air displaced can take to get out of the cars way.
08-05-2013, 10:43 AM
#48
Ive no desire to run without them at all though, I want them for increased track width and clearance of tyres relative to shock etc, but I would just like to come down about 10mm or so in an ideal world.
08-05-2013, 11:32 AM
#49
apparently the reason that peole went from the disc being inside the hub flange to outside the hub flange was due to the heat being directed directly into the bearings when the brakes got hot, which would then cause the bearings to collapse, so keeping the disc heat path away from that would also be an issue
obviously if there are people who aren't aware of this, and i can't think why they would be seeing as virtually everything is now outside the hub, it's just for letting you know is all
obviously if there are people who aren't aware of this, and i can't think why they would be seeing as virtually everything is now outside the hub, it's just for letting you know is all
08-05-2013, 12:17 PM
#51
Quality well thought out ducting without too many bends in that are directed at the CENTER of the hub, not the disk face and ideally, a rotor with an integral venting system that draws air in properly.
(look in the middle at the vanes - cheap ones are always straight, quality ones are directional and work like a turbocharger in essence)
Then look to pads - people are raving about these new CL pads, including James - but like anything good, they certainly aren't cheap. As a secondary option, folk over on SN seem to really rate the new EBC blue stuff.
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 08-05-2013 at 12:19 PM.
08-05-2013, 02:08 PM
#56
I agree.
Quality well thought out ducting without too many bends in that are directed at the CENTER of the hub, not the disk face and ideally, a rotor with an integral venting system that draws air in properly.
(look in the middle at the vanes - cheap ones are always straight, quality ones are directional and work like a turbocharger in essence)
Then look to pads - people are raving about these new CL pads, including James - but like anything good, they certainly aren't cheap. As a secondary option, folk over on SN seem to really rate the new EBC blue stuff.
Quality well thought out ducting without too many bends in that are directed at the CENTER of the hub, not the disk face and ideally, a rotor with an integral venting system that draws air in properly.
(look in the middle at the vanes - cheap ones are always straight, quality ones are directional and work like a turbocharger in essence)
Then look to pads - people are raving about these new CL pads, including James - but like anything good, they certainly aren't cheap. As a secondary option, folk over on SN seem to really rate the new EBC blue stuff.
08-05-2013, 02:25 PM
#57
Ive used 1144 and 1166 in the past yes, the 1144 arent as good as the ds2500 IME and the 1166 are a bit ill mannered but work well.
We use the ds2500 on my mrs clio (admittedly just under 200bhp not just over 300) and they are fantastic, ring trips, even spa, no drama at all.
08-05-2013, 02:32 PM
#58
The thing with most friction materials is that they are just that, a material that works given a level of friction, and thus heat, and as such any given friction material that works well on say, a Sapphire Cosworth may well be useless on a Clio due to the vehicles weight and thus different level of heat generated to stop it with X diameter rotors and X pedal pressure. The only genuinely valid advice on pad material is really going to come from someone who has used that material in that car under that given braking situation and even then its subjective as drivers braking habits are vastly different. One may favour early gentle braking and another may prefer to be the track day king of last minute braking. There are going to be materials that suit each driver better.
Interestingly, the only friction material I like in the 2 ton M5 is EBC yellow stuff. DS2500 and DS3000 overheated at the ring damn fast, in fact, DS2500 actually crumbled and wore out in one morning. Yellow stuff got me there, 25 laps, back and did another year of fast road use. I would never use them again on a Cosworth or Lancer though. - Go figure.
Interestingly, the only friction material I like in the 2 ton M5 is EBC yellow stuff. DS2500 and DS3000 overheated at the ring damn fast, in fact, DS2500 actually crumbled and wore out in one morning. Yellow stuff got me there, 25 laps, back and did another year of fast road use. I would never use them again on a Cosworth or Lancer though. - Go figure.
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 08-05-2013 at 02:36 PM.
08-05-2013, 02:34 PM
#59
Yes I dont think its always the case that works well on one car works well on another despite the job of "turn kinetic energy into heat via friction" being so similar at face value.
Even more in terms of manners than stopping power.
One thing I hate about yellowstuff on light cars is the lack of feel, but use them in a heavy car and its not a problem.
Even more in terms of manners than stopping power.
One thing I hate about yellowstuff on light cars is the lack of feel, but use them in a heavy car and its not a problem.
08-05-2013, 03:42 PM
#61
To anyone saying there is no airflow or pressure at 130mph etc....try sticking your arm out the window at that speed lol
I did once, to gesture someone as I passed them in my Mini...BAD idea.
I did once, to gesture someone as I passed them in my Mini...BAD idea.
08-05-2013, 04:31 PM
#62
So a bend im approaching at 120mph and need to get down to 80mph to get round it needs me to get rid of 40mph.
Cup racer will apprach the same bend at 110 and go round it at 90mph, so only need to get rid of 20mph
Which means (MV^2) that its WAY under half the heat they need to generate.
08-05-2013, 04:32 PM
#63
The thing with most friction materials is that they are just that, a material that works given a level of friction, and thus heat, and as such any given friction material that works well on say, a Sapphire Cosworth may well be useless on a Clio due to the vehicles weight and thus different level of heat generated to stop it with X diameter rotors and X pedal pressure. The only genuinely valid advice on pad material is really going to come from someone who has used that material in that car under that given braking situation and even then its subjective as drivers braking habits are vastly different. One may favour early gentle braking and another may prefer to be the track day king of last minute braking. There are going to be materials that suit each driver better.
Interestingly, the only friction material I like in the 2 ton M5 is EBC yellow stuff. DS2500 and DS3000 overheated at the ring damn fast, in fact, DS2500 actually crumbled and wore out in one morning. Yellow stuff got me there, 25 laps, back and did another year of fast road use. I would never use them again on a Cosworth or Lancer though. - Go figure.
Interestingly, the only friction material I like in the 2 ton M5 is EBC yellow stuff. DS2500 and DS3000 overheated at the ring damn fast, in fact, DS2500 actually crumbled and wore out in one morning. Yellow stuff got me there, 25 laps, back and did another year of fast road use. I would never use them again on a Cosworth or Lancer though. - Go figure.
level of weight isn't a main factor although you a point on weight transfer ect but you could get 2 types drivers into the same car and one driver will do a set of pads in 20 laps and the other will do 40 ! We found this running several 3 hr and 24 hr endurance races .So maybe it your driving style in each car differs But your the first person ive heard of in 8 years of being around this sort of thing that would insult a m5 with ebc pads
try the x8's or at a push 10'sEdited to add tyre compounds will also change braking temps to but again that user defined to
Last edited by Jay,; 08-05-2013 at 05:13 PM.
08-05-2013, 04:36 PM
#64
Fluid wise im fine currently, never had any fluid fade on this setup just using frequently changed dot 5.
Ive used 1144 and 1166 in the past yes, the 1144 arent as good as the ds2500 IME and the 1166 are a bit ill mannered but work well.
We use the ds2500 on my mrs clio (admittedly just under 200bhp not just over 300) and they are fantastic, ring trips, even spa, no drama at all.
Ive used 1144 and 1166 in the past yes, the 1144 arent as good as the ds2500 IME and the 1166 are a bit ill mannered but work well.
We use the ds2500 on my mrs clio (admittedly just under 200bhp not just over 300) and they are fantastic, ring trips, even spa, no drama at all.
cossie paranoia is brill LOL
08-05-2013, 05:29 PM
#65
The cup racers are irrelevant mate, on the straights they are MUCH slower than my car, and they also corner MUCH faster than my car.
So a bend im approaching at 120mph and need to get down to 80mph to get round it needs me to get rid of 40mph.
Cup racer will apprach the same bend at 110 and go round it at 90mph, so only need to get rid of 20mph
Which means (MV^2) that its WAY under half the heat they need to generate.
So a bend im approaching at 120mph and need to get down to 80mph to get round it needs me to get rid of 40mph.
Cup racer will apprach the same bend at 110 and go round it at 90mph, so only need to get rid of 20mph
Which means (MV^2) that its WAY under half the heat they need to generate.
08-05-2013, 05:40 PM
#66
At any given speed, Kinetic energy increases directly with the weight of the vehicle.
IE: a 2 ton vehicle will have twice the kinetic energy of a 1 ton vehicle at 70mph. However, speed has an even more dramatic effect as going twice as fast you will have 4 times the kinetic energy as the increase is not linear like weight, its exponential, so again, if you have a fast AND heavy car, your kinetic energy dissipation through the brakes to slow that lump down will be dramatically more than for a car half its weight at the same speed or less. Different compounds will suit different weights and speeds.
but you could get 2 types drivers into the same car and one driver will do
a set of pads in 20 laps and the other will do 40 ! We found this running
several 3 hr and 24 hr endurance races .
a set of pads in 20 laps and the other will do 40 ! We found this running
several 3 hr and 24 hr endurance races .
But your the first person ive heard of in 8 years of being around this sort of
thing that would insult a m5 with ebc padstry the x8's or at a push 10's
thing that would insult a m5 with ebc pads
try the x8's or at a push 10's
I have tried a lot of pads, all Ferodo's, all Pagid's and these EBC's. The EBC's win overall for me and most M5 drivers. Too much temperature compromise on most other compounds. these are virtually as good cold and that is extremely important to me.
Last edited by Stu @ M Developments; 08-05-2013 at 05:42 PM.
08-05-2013, 07:24 PM
#67
It has less to do with weight transfer (or more accurately, inertia), and everything to do with kinetic energy. If you don't think weight affects braking performance, feel free to put a 2ton trailer on the back of your 1 ton Cosworth and then do a quick braking test down a bloody big hill and see if you can stop just as fast as you did before.
At any given speed, Kinetic energy increases directly with the weight of the vehicle.
IE: a 2 ton vehicle will have twice the kinetic energy of a 1 ton vehicle at 70mph. However, speed has an even more dramatic effect as going twice as fast you will have 4 times the kinetic energy as the increase is not linear like weight, its exponential, so again, if you have a fast AND heavy car, your kinetic energy dissipation through the brakes to slow that lump down will be dramatically more than for a car half its weight at the same speed or less. Different compounds will suit different weights and speeds.
.
At any given speed, Kinetic energy increases directly with the weight of the vehicle.
IE: a 2 ton vehicle will have twice the kinetic energy of a 1 ton vehicle at 70mph. However, speed has an even more dramatic effect as going twice as fast you will have 4 times the kinetic energy as the increase is not linear like weight, its exponential, so again, if you have a fast AND heavy car, your kinetic energy dissipation through the brakes to slow that lump down will be dramatically more than for a car half its weight at the same speed or less. Different compounds will suit different weights and speeds.
.
balance
weight of car
suspension settings ! hard/soft /over sprung /under spring dictates weight transfer or inertia
tyres ie grip levels to how this will effect the way the brakes are used faster cornering speed means less time on the brakes so less heat !
Chips point that his car is faster than a cup car so its more of a arse to slow down for the corners is not 100% correct its the fact the cup car is ideally built to carry speed better ! its not the fact the car is under powered it the fact the chassis and brakes are set to get the best from the car and chips Ł500 coilovers and Ł100 brakes wont even match the gear on the cup car so if the chips car was at the same chassis/tyre standard for his horse power for track use he wouldn't be on the brakes so much
Now we come to the organic item where normally most of the issues on a track or road start
As above they want aldi motorsport to do the job of harrods and think So my point is change the pads and maybe look at driving style to suite the car . I never mentioned towing with a cossie this is thread about how chip can kick more teeth out of his clio for not to much money and not crashing not proving how a cossie is at towing 
Yeah - just me and most BMW M5 tuners and form members mate.
I have tried a lot of pads, all Ferodo's, all Pagid's and these EBC's. The EBC's win overall for me and most M5 drivers. Too much temperature compromise on most other compounds. these are virtually as good cold and that is extremely important to me.
I have tried a lot of pads, all Ferodo's, all Pagid's and these EBC's. The EBC's win overall for me and most M5 drivers. Too much temperature compromise on most other compounds. these are virtually as good cold and that is extremely important to me.
480 bhp and we used brands and Silverstone to test all bakes suspension and geometry and found the yellows way to soft reds useless and the blues to hard and brital .The ds3000s over cooked very easily the mintex 55's and 66's great al through but high dust and pad wear and cl's x10's brilliant but by far not the cheapest But I think this is one of those things where itll be hard to agree on im just stating fact we have found from a good range of cars put under massive strain like how chip wants to drive the clio
And the pad temps are very important yes they need to work on a road car cold and hot but again that can be helped by running the pads in right ! ok a 1166 or cl 10's wont wont be a oem pull up when cold but they can be better treated correctly !
Last edited by Jay,; 08-05-2013 at 07:26 PM.
08-05-2013, 08:27 PM
#69
Advanced PassionFord User
Agreed, you cant possibly generalise on the pressure you will get as its dependant on the size and shape of frontal area of the car and how much of it is vented or not, even at 50mph if you have a small hole in a large flat object the wind rushing through it will do so at a hundreds of miles an hour and with enourmous pressure.
At my parents gaff they have a house that is sat widthways on with a gate in the middle and a double garage at the side of that and a wall at the side of that, when the wind blows in the right direction even gently if you open the gate its a massive rush of wind down the alley between the house and garage as its the only place it can get through, but if you stood to the other side of the house on the pavement you would feel next to nothing.
So its as much about the object that the hole is in as it is about the hole itself.
Even silly things a lot of people wouldnt think of like lowering the car will effect it as then less air can get underneath it so more will try and force through the foglight hole etc.
If there is an equation for it, then it would have a LOT of variables in it, including things like the construction of the existing radiator and wether or not you have he sealing rubber strip at the back of the bonnet etc, as all these things will effect the other routes the air displaced can take to get out of the cars way.
At my parents gaff they have a house that is sat widthways on with a gate in the middle and a double garage at the side of that and a wall at the side of that, when the wind blows in the right direction even gently if you open the gate its a massive rush of wind down the alley between the house and garage as its the only place it can get through, but if you stood to the other side of the house on the pavement you would feel next to nothing.
So its as much about the object that the hole is in as it is about the hole itself.
Even silly things a lot of people wouldnt think of like lowering the car will effect it as then less air can get underneath it so more will try and force through the foglight hole etc.
If there is an equation for it, then it would have a LOT of variables in it, including things like the construction of the existing radiator and wether or not you have he sealing rubber strip at the back of the bonnet etc, as all these things will effect the other routes the air displaced can take to get out of the cars way.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennium_Prize_Problems
08-05-2013, 08:29 PM
#70
Advanced PassionFord User
apparently the reason that peole went from the disc being inside the hub flange to outside the hub flange was due to the heat being directed directly into the bearings when the brakes got hot, which would then cause the bearings to collapse, so keeping the disc heat path away from that would also be an issue
obviously if there are people who aren't aware of this, and i can't think why they would be seeing as virtually everything is now outside the hub, it's just for letting you know is all
obviously if there are people who aren't aware of this, and i can't think why they would be seeing as virtually everything is now outside the hub, it's just for letting you know is all
08-05-2013, 08:43 PM
#72
Straight line corner speed - corner speed = brakes required
So yes more corner speed would help but as on trackdays I'm often limited by the car I'm begin going into the corner (no overtaking in bends) even if I could improve the cars (or my) corner ability it wouldn't always help. This is still a road car with a radio and rear seats etc so always a compromise compared to racers.
The cup cars have amazing corner speed but standard engines so its only tiny amounts of speed they need to lose compared to me.
Last edited by Chip; 08-05-2013 at 08:49 PM.
08-05-2013, 08:47 PM
#73
(Caveat being though heavier cars corner slower generally so need to lose more speed cause of that)
On the road where you have more space to get upto speed its ALL about weight.
08-05-2013, 08:50 PM
#74
Its a triangle.
Straight line corner speed - corner speed = brakes required
So yes more corner speed would help but as on trackdays I'm often limited by the car I'm begin going into the corner (no overtaking in bends) even if I could improve the cars (or my) corner ability it wouldn't always help. This is still a road car with a radio and rear seats etc so always a compromise compared to racers.
The cup cars have amazing corner speed but standard engines so its only tiny amounts of speed they need to lose compared to me.
Straight line corner speed - corner speed = brakes required
So yes more corner speed would help but as on trackdays I'm often limited by the car I'm begin going into the corner (no overtaking in bends) even if I could improve the cars (or my) corner ability it wouldn't always help. This is still a road car with a radio and rear seats etc so always a compromise compared to racers.
The cup cars have amazing corner speed but standard engines so its only tiny amounts of speed they need to lose compared to me.
08-05-2013, 08:52 PM
#75
On a track power is more important in dictating your brake requirements than weight is in that if the car is heavy it doesn't get upto as much speed anyway.
(Caveat being though heavier cars corner slower generally so need to lose more speed cause of that)
On the road where you have more space to get upto speed its ALL about weight.
(Caveat being though heavier cars corner slower generally so need to lose more speed cause of that)
On the road where you have more space to get upto speed its ALL about weight.
or better handling and better contact ! not with the barrier obviously
08-05-2013, 09:15 PM
#76
but corner speed is mainly 3 quarters of the average lap Chip , If you get a better compliant shock setup correctly valved ect then you can have a near setup for both track and road then further that by a unsprung weight calc to get the rates in the ball park followed by better tyre then you wont be stamping on the brakes so hard or just learn to be smoother with the setup you have
Take it out sometime, its not a racecar but I think you would be quite surprised how well it works.
Plus as it is the mrs takes it shopping still.
Last edited by Chip; 08-05-2013 at 09:17 PM.
08-05-2013, 09:15 PM
#77
Not entirely sane
Fluid dynamics is a very complex subject and I did generalise for simplicity. The basics are that to achieve a flow between one point and another e.g. one end of a duct to the other, you must have a pressure differential. The static pressure at the front of the brake duct at car driving speeds will only be very slightly higher than at the brake end of the duct, hence the flow would only be small. My "arbritary" figure of 150 mph is taken as the speed below which the "ram effect" of a forward facing duct opening is considered negligible. This figure is accepted in aircraft aerodynamics so will be equally relevant in motorsport for ducted cooling air flow and for "ram air" induction. If you want to see a can of worms, just Google about ram air induction and look at the opposing views as to whether this even exists at car speeds.
In addition to the static pressure differential causing flow, it must also be considered that the air at the front of the car is effectively moving towards the car at the speed of the car. The air will therefore have kinetic energy which will cause it to move along the duct. In opposition to this, the airflow down the duct will be turbulent so there will be frictional losses and heating.
This is why I considered trying fans to assist this flow. I haven't pursued it further as I don't have the technical ability to run the maths needed to get the theoretical answers. I don't run my car on the track and don't suffer from brake fade on the road so I can't justify spending the money to physically try it and see the empirical evidence. It may be that bigger fans would be needed to see a marked effect, I just don't know. The relatively small cost of trying it compared to other expensive brake upgrades may make it worth pursuing to someone who is experiencing brake heat issues.
In addition to the static pressure differential causing flow, it must also be considered that the air at the front of the car is effectively moving towards the car at the speed of the car. The air will therefore have kinetic energy which will cause it to move along the duct. In opposition to this, the airflow down the duct will be turbulent so there will be frictional losses and heating.
This is why I considered trying fans to assist this flow. I haven't pursued it further as I don't have the technical ability to run the maths needed to get the theoretical answers. I don't run my car on the track and don't suffer from brake fade on the road so I can't justify spending the money to physically try it and see the empirical evidence. It may be that bigger fans would be needed to see a marked effect, I just don't know. The relatively small cost of trying it compared to other expensive brake upgrades may make it worth pursuing to someone who is experiencing brake heat issues.
08-05-2013, 09:31 PM
#79
Stevie, agreed although im going to try the ds2500 on track first as they are brand new and Only just bedded in yesterday so not going to bin them without at least trying them first as i expect them to be a lot better than the yellowstuff were. Not out on track till beginning of July now as trying to move house so got plenty of time to sort some ducting hopefully.
I wouldn't bother but I suppose it will put your mind at rest with them !
id put a better disc caliper setup on it surely a 300 disc and a good 4 pot can be sorced cheaply or at least go with stevie idea
